COVID-19 (Aka China Virus)

[Blue]

5 minutes ago, nsplayr said:

Then again there are people like this who seem to think people voluntarily choosing to wear masks makes them Nazis 🙄

I don’t wear a mask except where required (many but not all medical facilities it seems like) and rarely see others wearing masks in Tennessee…but if folks want to by all means go for it!

It does not affect me in any way whatsoever and I make no real judgements either way. People that don’t share that mentality at this point I think are clearly in the wrong.

I don't see anyone in this thread criticizing anyone who voluntarily wears a mask.

To add, when the mask mandates finally started dropping, I recall brief public service campaigns about "being respectful to people who choose to wear a mask."  I recall those campaigns quickly going quiet, as people realized the vast majority of non-mask wearers don't give two shits if someone voluntarily wears a mask.

People don't care if you decide on your own to wear a mask

[brabus]

3 hours ago, FLEA said:

I'm tired of this societal nonsense that you should tough it out when you're sick and go to work spewing snot everywhere.

I think that’s the one positive thing that’s come out of this disaster. Talking to friends from all over the work spectrum, it seems like this old line of thinking is changing. 

 

18 minutes ago, Blue said:

I don't see anyone in this thread criticizing anyone who voluntarily wears a mask.

I don’t give a shit if someone chooses to wear a mask, but I honestly will still think you’re a complete idiot when I see your mask around your chin talking to a stranger 2 ft from your face, or when I see you rip your mask off as you leave the plane, only to see you standing nuts to butt in the Jamba Juice line without it. Those people are just virtue signaling douchebags who can’t let go, and I don’t feel bad about thinking that. 

[Biff_T]

5 hours ago, nsplayr said:

Yes, 100% agree with this. Masks help stop the spread of a lot of respiratory illnesses…it’s partly why they’ve been worn in medical settings for decades!

Everything @FLEA said above is totally reasonable.

Then again there are people like this who seem to think people voluntarily choosing to wear masks makes them Nazis 🙄

I don’t wear a mask except where required (many but not all medical facilities it seems like) and rarely see others wearing masks in Tennessee…but if folks want to by all means go for it!

It does not affect me in any way whatsoever and I make no real judgements either way. People that don’t share that mentality at this point I think are clearly in the wrong.

Dude.  I don't give a fxck if you wear a mask.  I agree that masks in hospitals makes sense and if you're sick wear a mask.  Cool, I get it.  What I don't like is how a county very close to where I live (within a 1/4 mile) is considering the indoor mask mandate for everyone....again.  I live in OC and in  HB you didn't have to wear a mask at most places during the pandemic.  Guess what?  Nothing significant happened.   Just down the street they would kick me out of a 7/11 for not wearing a mask.  They attack you verbally and treat you like you just shit on their sidewalk.  I'm tired of stupidity and feelings being used to justify "science".  It's the virtue signaling armband.  It makes sense to wear it if you're sick and in hospitals but come on man, do I really need to wear it to eat at the Sizzler?  

Edited December 8, 2022 by Biff_T
Spelling bee failure

[BFM this]

3 hours ago, nsplayr said:

Then again there are people like this who seem to think people voluntarily choosing to wear masks makes them Nazis 🙄

Masks have become the progressives' MAGA hat.

[BFM this]

3 hours ago, nsplayr said:

Yes, 100% agree with this. Masks help stop the spread of a lot of respiratory illnesses…it’s partly why they’ve been worn in medical settings for decades!

The protocols in hospitals, even before COVID, for wearing masks, when, what for, who's being protected, etc., has precisely ZERO resemblance to public masking.

Public masking (any old piece of cloth strapped to the face) is not only ineffective, it is unhealthy for the wearer, and possibly for those who come in close contact.

[tac airlifter]

19 hours ago, FLEA said:

TBH I think wearing mask in a clinic actually makes since and probably should stick. Not just COVID, but really healthcare facilities are places sick people conjugate. Mask are effective with some types of illness. 

 

16 hours ago, nsplayr said:

Yes, 100% agree with this. Masks help stop the spread of a lot of respiratory illnesses…it’s partly why they’ve been worn in medical settings for decades!

Everything @FLEA said above is totally reasonable.

The problem isn’t masks, it’s mandates.  We are incapable of intelligent mask mandate enforcement.  The nature of a mandate is brute, unreasonable enforcement focusing on compliance regardless of circumstances. This leaves no room for nuance, a core aspect of real life.
 

Also noteworthy that two non-doctors are arguing we force doctors to dress a certain way in their own hospitals.  Here in FL I do not see the majority of doctors voluntarily wearing masks all day in the hospital.  Shouldn’t their opinion carry some weight?  The majority of Americans and doctors are sick of unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats imposing rules that defy common sense.  
 

Like you I don’t want to sit next to an obviously contagious hospital patron in a waiting room, but if C19 taught me anything it’s the value of freedom.  You take the good with the bad, it’s worth it. You are free to wear as many masks as you’d like; please stop pretending there’s a movement to restrict your decision to wear a mask.  So bizarre to place demands on others while simultaneously acting like a victim… no one cares about your choice to mask yourself.

TLDR:  freedom good, mandate bad.  But freedom hard, mandate easy.  Still, freedom better.

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, tac airlifter said:

 

The problem isn’t masks, it’s mandates.  We are incapable of intelligent mask mandate enforcement.  The nature of a mandate is brute, unreasonable enforcement focusing on compliance regardless of circumstances. This leaves no room for nuance, a core aspect of real life.
 

Also noteworthy that two non-doctors are arguing we force doctors to dress a certain way in their own hospitals.  Here in FL I do not see the majority of doctors voluntarily wearing masks all day in the hospital.  Shouldn’t their opinion carry some weight?  The majority of Americans and doctors are sick of unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats imposing rules that defy common sense.  
 

Like you I don’t want to sit next to an obviously contagious hospital patron in a waiting room, but if C19 taught me anything it’s the value of freedom.  You take the good with the bad, it’s worth it. You are free to wear as many masks as you’d like; please stop pretending there’s a movement to restrict your decision to wear a mask.  So bizarre to place demands on others while simultaneously acting like a victim… no one cares about your choice to mask yourself.

TLDR:  freedom good, mandate bad.  But freedom hard, mandate easy.  Still, freedom better.

Would you push back against other mandates? Like... is it a terrible blow to your freedom that you can't smoke in the hospital waiting room? 

[Lockjaw]

From my prehospital care knowledge (working EMS), the data on surgical masks doing good against respiratory illness is unsettled at best (hence why there is normally a disclaimer on the boxes). There are even studies suggesting they aren't that great at blocking fluids, etc, in a surgical environment and that plastic face shields would be better for that purpose. 

Yes, N95s can be useful for protecting a user against tuberculosis and other such illnesses, but they are a royal PITA to wear when worn properly and are only supposed to be used once (just like medical gloves or pretty much any other PPE). We always donned 95s when we suspected a patient had TB and the ER staff would do the same, even placing them in a particular room for isolation (when facilities were available). ICUs would go further for certain types of infectious diseases, utilizing things like Tyvek suits or respirators - which is understandable when you are in close proximity of a particular individual with a very infectious and harmful illness for long periods of time, performing treatments/intervention - but they would only be used for that patient's room.

It was not common and certainly not mandatory to be wearing a mask in a "normal" medical environment. They hinder communication, are uncomfortable when worn properly, and are really only usable once, if you want them to be as effective as advertised.

[GKinnear]

22 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Would you push back against other mandates? Like... is it a terrible blow to your freedom that you can't smoke in the hospital waiting room? 

To your specific argument, the safety precaution of the risk from a highly flammable material (100% Oxygen) in close proximity to an ignition source (cigarette/cigar/pipe/joint...whatever) is backed up by science that is devoid of any political argument.

In a free society, mandates from the government are always an exercise in how much power can the government assume that the populace is willing to tolerate.

[tac airlifter]

1 hour ago, pawnman said:

Would you push back against other mandates? Like... is it a terrible blow to your freedom that you can't smoke in the hospital waiting room? 

No, I could smoke outside which still allows my freedom without inhibiting your freedom from second hand smoke.

Requiring an action is fundamentally different than not allowing an action.

Any of these statements can be taken to a logical absurdity, which is not my intent or yours.  I’m guessing you thought it was unreasonable for people walking alone on a deserted beach to be arrested for not wearing a mask; unfortunately that outcome is the inevitable result of mandates by unaccountable parties.  

[Guardian]

Masks have become the progressives' MAGA hat.

MAGA hats are the progressives MAGA hats. They get triggered by the slightest hint that progressive ideals don’t make America great.

[Biff_T]

2 hours ago, pawnman said:

Would you push back against other mandates? Like... is it a terrible blow to your freedom that you can't smoke in the hospital waiting room? 

I also can't whip out my dong and start  banging a chicken in the waiting room.  Or pull out my axe and start chopping up the staff.  Are we truly free?   Lol.    Dude, inhaling smoke is "scientifically" proven unhealthy and therefore I comply.  Walking to my table at the Sizzler wearing a mask and then taking it off to eat has not been proven to do anything except keep me from smelling a fart.  If they did a good job proving to the public that all of these safety precautions (mask, social distancing, not leaving your house and etc...) worked, then most would get on board.  Kinda like speed limits, seat belts and smoking in waiting rooms.   

[brabus]

7 minutes ago, Biff_T said:

except keep me from smelling a fart.

False, they objectively do not even accomplish that!

[pawnman]

2 hours ago, GKinnear said:

To your specific argument, the safety precaution of the risk from a highly flammable material (100% Oxygen) in close proximity to an ignition source (cigarette/cigar/pipe/joint...whatever) is backed up by science that is devoid of any political argument.

In a free society, mandates from the government are always an exercise in how much power can the government assume that the populace is willing to tolerate.

Are there a lot of O2 tanks in the waiting room? 

Even then... shouldn't everyone be free to make their own risk decision? "That guy is smoking next to an O2 tank, maybe I should leave".

Of course the point is we accept some mandates... it's part of living in a society. I don't know why some people have decided wearing a mask in a hospital is the last straw towards a totalitarian society. 

[Biff_T]

2 minutes ago, pawnman said:

 I don't know why some people have decided wearing a mask in a hospital is the last straw towards a totalitarian society. 

Mandates for everyone outside of a hospital is what I'm concerned about.  Did you happen to fly into LAX during the lockdowns? Blanket  mandates applied to everyone.  After many cities in OC refused to play ball with the state,  Gavin Newsom closed the state beaches (during the summer) around those cities and tried forcing all of the beach cities to shutdown their beaches as well. Covid was not being spread at the beaches.  It was a power play to fck with OC for not blindly following the Governor.  We're historically more conservative in OC.   He had the CHP flying helicopters over the beach telling people to go home.   I was surfing and gave a big middle finger to the CHP little bird.  They are going to keep applying covid mandates for the rest of our lives.  When covid is no longer a threat, they are going to say that the new threat is the flu, pneumonia, Trump's farts or whatever works to scare the people into following.   

 

[Lockjaw]

I think the medical community has lost a lot of trust. Pretty sure I posted about this a few pages (or more?) back. Again from my EMS background, I knew people in the northeast who were in the thick of it from March of 2020 onward for a number of months. They had terrible stories. Some of them were understandably quite vocal from their experiences about people taking precautions, mandates being needed, and that people should just listen to "the experts." (Side note: Many of them spoke of being overwhelmed, and I have no doubt about that - but there have also been plenty of hospital closures/total bed losses leading up to 2020. This reduced capacity, partially because hospital CEOs wanted to run leaner operations.)

The problem is that when circumstances change/new data arises, experts these days seem to not adjust. I asked some of my friends if, when we go to war, the country should just be quiet and listen to the "experts" (generals, DOD civilian leadership, etc) regardless of what else is seen or heard. We were constantly turning the corner in AFG. Some of them got it. Some didn't.

The more the experts dug in their heels, the more people started losing trust in the medical community. And when hospital CEOs started letting their infectious disease specialists (who are some of the most hypochondriac/risk averse people out there) make lots of decisions for the entire hospital community, further trust was lost. People weren't allowed to be with their loved ones when they passed. Fathers weren't allowed to be present for births. Plenty of other boneheaded decisions as well, which I and others eventually saw as not so much needed to control the virus, but which instead made life easier for some of the less friendly or cordial medical professionals (and there are plenty of them out there, unfortunately).

I have no problem with people choosing to wear a mask - and if the data ever overwhelmingly supports it (like smoking and secondhand smoke is bad for you), places requiring people with certain symptoms to be masked. Masks for all, no matter what, all the time, is a silly policy, and the field would be much better off investing in HVAC/ventilation upgrades.

[gearhog]

House just passed this years defense budget, which rescinds the vaccine mandate.

I guess that's one way to get conservatives to look past the 100 Billion Dollar increase. Think it'll pass Senate?

 

[nsplayr]

Yes I think it will pass. Many conservatives advocate for increased defense spending and the defense budget increased every year under Trump and in fact the vast majority of years since WWII. The only sustained downturn was 2011-2015 and that deal was (oddly, stupidly) bipartisan in nature.

[pbar]

23 hours ago, BFM this said:

Masks have become the progressives' MAGA hat.

More analogous to a Christian wearing a crucifix or an Orthodox Jew wearing a yarmulke. 

[GKinnear]

On 12/8/2022 at 11:20 AM, pawnman said:

Are there a lot of O2 tanks in the waiting room? 

Even then... shouldn't everyone be free to make their own risk decision? "That guy is smoking next to an O2 tank, maybe I should leave".

Of course the point is we accept some mandates... it's part of living in a society. I don't know why some people have decided wearing a mask in a hospital is the last straw towards a totalitarian society. 

IMO, "Shouldn't everyone be free to make their own risk decision?" is not logically consistent with "of course the point is we accept some mandates"

While I personally don't like mandates (you're not the boss of me!), on principle they should be the minimum amount necessary to do the job.  I also think that there should be a healthy discussion to ensure that minimum amount.  

In this case it seems that the mask mandates are broad and over-reaching at all levels, and the lack of follow-on conversation is the sticky wicket in the whole affair.

Just my $0.69 (inflation is a real bitch)

[BashiChuni]

I wonder what he’s found…

[BashiChuni]

He found something!

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by BashiChuni

[pawnman]

On 12/10/2022 at 11:44 AM, GKinnear said:

IMO, "Shouldn't everyone be free to make their own risk decision?" is not logically consistent with "of course the point is we accept some mandates"

While I personally don't like mandates (you're not the boss of me!), on principle they should be the minimum amount necessary to do the job.  I also think that there should be a healthy discussion to ensure that minimum amount.  

In this case it seems that the mask mandates are broad and over-reaching at all levels, and the lack of follow-on conversation is the sticky wicket in the whole affair.

Just my $0.69 (inflation is a real bitch)

That second part was my point. We accept a whole lot of mandates. But somehow wearing a mask in a hospital is where it becomes tyranny. 

[FourFans]

On 12/8/2022 at 10:20 AM, pawnman said:

Are there a lot of O2 tanks in the waiting room? 

As a mater of fact, yes.  Most hospitals have O2 lines running through most of their walls, including the exterior ones and the ones that border the waiting room.  Beyond that, it takes one remodel or one re-org for the old ICU wall to become the waiting room wall, and then you've got a significant number of O2 and other hospital-unique and hazardous plumbing running through those walls.  

[filthy_liar]

13 hours ago, pawnman said:

That second part was my point. We accept a whole lot of mandates. But somehow wearing a mask in a hospital is where it becomes tyranny. 

I don't accept a whole lot of mandates.  And that makes me a weirdo.  And that's too bad. You have demonstrated over and over that you love mandates.  You are bringing them out of the woodwork.  You love mandates, they make you feel comfortable.  I wish they didn't.  I wish you still had an ounce of pioneering blood in you.  I wish you still had a fighting spirit.  And I wish you never flew on the B-1.