COVID-19 (Aka China Virus)

[HeloDude]

On 7/28/2021 at 10:57 PM, VMFA187 said:

To you and Prawnman,

Would you guys respect someone’s decision if they evaluated the threat to themselves, and others, and decided it was not worth the risk of getting a vaccine? 

 

On 7/29/2021 at 8:44 AM, pawnman said:

Depends.  Is this person not getting the vaccine still wearing a mask, socially distancing, avoiding large crowds of people...?

Or is this person loudly proclaiming that everything should be open, you can't ask about their vaccination status, refusing to wear a mask even in places where there's a 100% mask policy, and eagerly booking tickets for the next big event?

Because from what I've seen, the people who aren't getting vaccinated also scoff every other countermeasure taken against the pandemic.  If you've gotten advice from your doctor that you shouldn't get the vaccine, I don't fault you.  If you're taking marching orders from some political operative that told you Biden and Fauci are out to get you...no, I don't respect that decision.

It’s funny to see people try to act differently today when this is how they were 2 years ago.

It’s ok to have been wrong in the past, and it’s ok to even change your mind.  I’ll even forgive people for being jerks if they show remorse and humility.  But people need to own what they said/did and tell people they were wrong and a complete jerk.  Anything less than that, well, then I’ll assume they’re the same person as two years ago.

[BashiChuni]

43 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

 

It’s funny to see people try to act differently today when this is how they were 2 years ago.

It’s ok to have been wrong in the past, and it’s ok to even change your mind.  I’ll even forgive people for being jerks if they show remorse and humility.  But people need to own what they said/did and tell people they were wrong and a complete jerk.  Anything less than that, well, then I’ll assume they’re the same person as two years ago.

100%

a few posters on here with massive egg on their face

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, HeloDude said:

 

It’s funny to see people try to act differently today when this is how they were 2 years ago.

It’s ok to have been wrong in the past, and it’s ok to even change your mind.  I’ll even forgive people for being jerks if they show remorse and humility.  But people need to own what they said/did and tell people they were wrong and a complete jerk.  Anything less than that, well, then I’ll assume they’re the same person as two years ago.

I'm sorry...can you point to the phrase you believe says "I think thenfull force of the federal government should come down on people who don't get vaccinated?"

You guys enjoy beating on that strawman. Youve gotten plenty of practice over the last 2 years.

[HeloDude]

40 minutes ago, pawnman said:

I'm sorry...can you point to the phrase you believe says "I think thenfull force of the federal government should come down on people who don't get vaccinated?"

You guys enjoy beating on that strawman. Youve gotten plenty of practice over the last 2 years.

Your words two years ago speak for themselves.  You were against everyday folks who didn’t want to get the vaccine, and then who didn’t want wear a mask, didn’t want to social distance, etc.  I’m just pointing out that you were being a complete jerk and believed that what you were being told was true—that if someone fell into the camp above, that they were wrong.   So unless you would like to admit that you were being a jerk and that you were wrong, I just reposted your words for everyone else to read once more.  

[pawnman]

6 hours ago, HeloDude said:

Your words two years ago speak for themselves.  You were against everyday folks who didn’t want to get the vaccine, and then who didn’t want wear a mask, didn’t want to social distance, etc.  I’m just pointing out that you were being a complete jerk and believed that what you were being told was true—that if someone fell into the camp above, that they were wrong.   So unless you would like to admit that you were being a jerk and that you were wrong, I just reposted your words for everyone else to read once more.  

You got all the apology you're gonna get. 

[BashiChuni]

3 hours ago, pawnman said:

You got all the apology you're gonna get. 

take the L like a man

[brabus]

3 hours ago, pawnman said:

You got all the apology you're gonna get. 

 

[VMFA187]

14 hours ago, pawnman said:

I'm sorry...can you point to the phrase you believe says "I think thenfull force of the federal government should come down on people who don't get vaccinated?"

You guys enjoy beating on that strawman. Youve gotten plenty of practice over the last 2 years.

Pretty sure somewhere over the course of this discussion you said you would punish any military member who didn't get the vaccine with the full authority given by the UCMJ if you were a commander. That's about as close as one can get to what you said. 

[pawnman]

2 minutes ago, VMFA187 said:

Pretty sure somewhere over the course of this discussion you said you would punish any military member who didn't get the vaccine with the full authority given by the UCMJ if you were a commander. That's about as close as one can get to what you said. 

No...I said I'd be pretty pissed when  I found out people were lying about being vaccinated just so they could disregard SECDEF's guidance on masks. Including UCMJ action for people who choose to lie, to my face, about their vaccination status in order to not wear a mask. 

Integrity first, unless it's something I don't want to do...

I was always clear that I believed Biden and the DoD had the legal authority to order military members to get vaccinated. That's very different than believing that the federal government should force every citizen to get vaccinated. 

Like...I literally can't say this any more simply. Y'all have built a strawman, and you're clutching it with both hands so you can keep beating on it.

[RedEye1911]

41 minutes ago, pawnman said:

I was always clear that I believed Biden and the DoD had the legal authority to order military members to get vaccinated.

lol

Name an atrocity committed in which the people in charge didn't have the legal authority (granted to themselves by themselves) to do horrible things.

"I was just following orders..."

Integrity first? What freaking military are you in? Zero people at the top have any integrity.

I respect anyone who lied or cheated to get out of masking or vaccines. They were right, even if they were legally wrong. I should have just slipped someone some money to squirt the shot onto the ground.

[brabus]

@pawnman You said if people didn’t get the vax due to doctor rec, you were ok with that. If they didn’t get it for any other reason, you said you don’t respect that decision. So, you explicitly stated you did not respect individual medical freedom in 2021. And you backed that stance up with garbage info that has been substantially refuted since then. Those are facts, not strawmen.

Edited August 29, 2023 by brabus

[pawnman]

Yeah, I'm tapping out. You all can declare victory if you want. 

 

[Pooter]

3 years into the covid debate and I'm still waiting for the mass outrage over yearly flu shots, anthrax boosters, malaria pills for places that barely have malaria, and countless other onerous military medical requirements everyone just blindly accepts.

Oh I forgot, none of those are political lightning rods so no one cares.

[ViperMan]

6 hours ago, Pooter said:

3 years into the covid debate and I'm still waiting for the mass outrage over yearly flu shots, anthrax boosters, malaria pills for places that barely have malaria, and countless other onerous military medical requirements everyone just blindly accepts.

Oh I forgot, none of those are political lightning rods so no one cares.

None of those bugs are being used to fear-monger and bludgeon our society into all manner of ridiculous behaviors, so apples to oranges much? I'm sure if there were politicians out there beating the war drum over the four horsemen of the yearly flu, you'd have the hypothetical response you're sarcastically looking for.

As for me, I'm not confused by this. The powers that be have used the COVID event to shuttle in all manner of onerous policies and shove our economic system off a cliff. In the future, I hope our dollars are worth what we're all saving them for. I hope the trillions of dollars that were printed, someday find the productivity they stole from the future.

Flu and Malaria don't make money. COVID does. Your sarcasm is misdirected, and you clearly don't understand what people are pissed about.

"Unscorable @ 9, 2".

[Pooter]

2 hours ago, ViperMan said:

None of those bugs are being used to fear-monger and bludgeon our society into all manner of ridiculous behaviors, so apples to oranges much? I'm sure if there were politicians out there beating the war drum over the four horsemen of the yearly flu, you'd have the hypothetical response you're sarcastically looking for.

As for me, I'm not confused by this. The powers that be have used the COVID event to shuttle in all manner of onerous policies and shove our economic system off a cliff. In the future, I hope our dollars are worth what we're all saving them for. I hope the trillions of dollars that were printed, someday find the productivity they stole from the future.

Flu and Malaria don't make money. COVID does. Your sarcasm is misdirected, and you clearly don't understand what people are pissed about.

"Unscorable @ 9, 2".

My bad, I thought people were mad about the mandates.. reference the conversation above ☝️☝️ and dozens pages before it. 
 

Which is why I brought up other medical things the military mandates that people don't think twice about.  Hence the political lightning rod comment. 
 

It's funny, the prevailing attitude in the military was, until very recently, to shut up, complete your readiness requirements no matter how stupid, go hack the mission, and load up on go pills/rip it's/no gos/coffee/cigs/dip to get the job done, crush beers afterward, all while knowing full well basically everything the military asks you to do is bad for you. 

Is this a healthy outlook? Nope. But you can't say it wasn't common.

But then all of that magically did a 180 with COVID. Do we think that's because everyone in the military simultaneously had an epiphany that their body is a temple? Or is it because COVID turned into a culture war, and then we do what we always do and revert back to two warring tribes. One tribe is double masking alone in their cars to show how health conscious they are while the other ignores even the most basic precautions to own the libs.

[RedEye1911]

6 hours ago, Pooter said:

My bad, I thought people were mad about the mandates.. reference the conversation above ☝️☝️ and dozens pages before it. 
 

Which is why I brought up other medical things the military mandates that people don't think twice about.  Hence the political lightning rod comment. 
 

It's funny, the prevailing attitude in the military was, until very recently, to shut up, complete your readiness requirements no matter how stupid, go hack the mission, and load up on go pills/rip it's/no gos/coffee/cigs/dip to get the job done, crush beers afterward, all while knowing full well basically everything the military asks you to do is bad for you. 

Is this a healthy outlook? Nope. But you can't say it wasn't common.

But then all of that magically did a 180 with COVID. Do we think that's because everyone in the military simultaneously had an epiphany that their body is a temple? Or is it because COVID turned into a culture war, and then we do what we always do and revert back to two warring tribes. One tribe is double masking alone in their cars to show how health conscious they are while the other ignores even the most basic precautions to own the libs.

People learn and people change their minds.

Your argument is invalid.

Keep doing what you're told and keep your zero agency. Remember, you were just following orders.

[brabus]

17 hours ago, Pooter said:

3 years into the covid debate and I'm still waiting for the mass outrage over yearly flu shots, anthrax boosters, malaria pills for places that barely have malaria, and countless other onerous military medical requirements everyone just blindly accepts.

Oh I forgot, none of those are political lightning rods so no one cares.

Flu: Approved in 1945 for non-mil use after ~15 yrs of dev

Anthrax: Russia created in 1930, US in 1950s, current version created in 1960s after decades of dev

 Malaria: First version in 1830, current day developed in 1970s

Covid: Dev’d in 6-11 months (depending on country), without traditional rigors of testing met

3/4 of the ones you mentioned have been dev’d, tested, and refined over an average of 41 years before anyone in the mil currently received them. One of the above was extremely rushed to say the least, shoved down millions of throats with unknown/TBD short and long term effects. Simultaneously, data at the time already demo’d people under 50ish who were generally healthy were as a whole generally not affected by COVID in any meaningful way. This of course has been double stamped, and now triple stamped (can you do that!?), proven by today.

So, there was no reason to resist the 40+ year vaccines/pills, where as there were/are objective reasons to resist a COVID vaccine, neither of which have any link to politics whatsoever. Then of course one can easily throw in all the questionable shit the gov and big pharma did, but that’s outside the scope of this specific response.

None of this is to say people who did wish to get the vaccine are bad or idiots or whatever. You do you based on your own assessment and in conjunction with your doc’s rec if you value that. Forced vaccine was reckless, even in the mil.

 

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by brabus

[tac airlifter]

10 hours ago, Pooter said:

My bad, I thought people were mad about the mandates.. reference the conversation above ☝️☝️ and dozens pages before it. 
 

Which is why I brought up other medical things the military mandates that people don't think twice about.  Hence the political lightning rod comment. 
 

It's funny, the prevailing attitude in the military was, until very recently, to shut up, complete your readiness requirements no matter how stupid, go hack the mission, and load up on go pills/rip it's/no gos/coffee/cigs/dip to get the job done, crush beers afterward, all while knowing full well basically everything the military asks you to do is bad for you. 

Is this a healthy outlook? Nope. But you can't say it wasn't common.

But then all of that magically did a 180 with COVID. Do we think that's because everyone in the military simultaneously had an epiphany that their body is a temple? Or is it because COVID turned into a culture war, and then we do what we always do and revert back to two warring tribes. One tribe is double masking alone in their cars to show how health conscious they are while the other ignores even the most basic precautions to own the libs.

Flu shot: minor inconvenience

anthrax: there was a huge dust up about this, and it is no longer mandatory. 

malaria pills: bro, I throw those in the trash every deployment; nobody is making me take them. 

I disagreed with Covid mandates for military, but I got my shot when ordered.  I was doing cool shit and uninterested and making that my hill to die on.  But it was wrong. 

Curious if anyone here supports mandates for the rest of the country: Schools forcing it on kids, businesses forcing it on employees, etc.  The whole conversation changes if we talk about mandates inside of the military or outside of the military.  

 

[Biff_T]

Learn from the covid failure and move on.    That's it.   I will not wear masks again to the 7-11.  I'll wear one in a hospital, if they make me.  I took the vaccine under good faith (retired, no one made me).  Now the government, will have one less person willing to give our civilian leaders and the government (city, state, federal, doesn't matter) the benefit of the doubt on the next big "safety" problem they throw at us.   If anything, the Covid debacle has taken what little faith I had in our civilian leadership and flushed it down the toilet.    I dont trust them to do whats right.  They just want my money and freedom.  

[Day Man]

3 hours ago, brabus said:

Flu: Approved in 1945 for non-mil use after ~15 yrs of dev

Anthrax: Russia created in 1930, US in 1950s, current version created in 1960s after decades of dev

 Malaria: First version in 1830, current day developed in 1970s

bro we didn't have the internet, email, instantaneous access to global data, etc for any of those...just because it took longer doesn't mean it was more legit.

[brabus]

The lack of the internet in 1969 makes this recent debacle acceptable? Lol, OK inspector Clouseau. 

[RASH]

bro we didn't have the internet, email, instantaneous access to global data, etc for any of those...just because it took longer doesn't mean it was more legit.

This has got to be the most ignorant response I’ve ever seen on here. Choke yourself…


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[Lord Ratner]

On 8/27/2023 at 7:30 PM, tac airlifter said:

Your article does not provide any actual data, it merely alludes to mathematical errors in the assertion that C19 vaccine causes a higher miscarriage risk.  If you want to "debunk the conspiracy" then we'd need to know the number of miscarriages in a non-vaccinated control group compared against the number in the vaccine group, then curate for other factors (lifestyle risk choices, age, overall health, etc.).  This should be easy to debunk given that data exists, I wonder why that wasn't part of your article?
 

The only relevant information your linked article provided for those questions was the Pfizer comment that they did testing and do not assess miscarriage as a risk.  Except they've lied about many things during the pandemic, including efficacy of the shot.   **Edited to add: I did read the linked Sep 21 article claiming to prove no relation between vaccine and miscarriage; too old & not good enough, I want the Pfizer study data.**
 

So good luck debunking conspiracies, I mean that genuinely.  But denial & counter-accusation does not actually debunk it.  Release of all raw testing data might. The appeal to authority is unconvincing in light of complete failure, uncovered deception and corruption by the authorities.  

If someone makes a claim, especially a claim with a specific percentage in it, and you prove that the claim was impossible to make with the provided data, you are not then required to go through the data and come up with a corrected claim.

 

The 44% claim was debunked. It is now on the conspiracy theorist to provide a newer number, this time with adequate support.

[Lord Ratner]

20 hours ago, Day Man said:

bro we didn't have the internet, email, instantaneous access to global data, etc for any of those...just because it took longer doesn't mean it was more legit.

Just because what took longer?

 

The point is that those drugs had years and years of data behind them before they were forced on anyone. Decades in some cases.

 

This was a vaccine with absolutely no data behind it, because it was invented in a matter of months before deployment, and the fucking thing didn't even work. Which should be all the proof that you need, because even if something isn't dangerous, you should not be forced to use it if it doesn't even do the thing you claim it does.

 

To compare the covid vaccine mandate to other vaccine mandates is to be intentionally ignorant of the differences.

Edited August 31, 2023 by Lord Ratner

[tac airlifter]

1 hour ago, Lord Ratner said:

The 44% claim was debunked. It is now on the conspiracy theorist to provide a newer number, this time with adequate support.

I get where you’re coming from and if circumstances surrounding the shot were different I would agree with your logic.  However the conspiracy theorist isn’t encouraging me to give this shot to my pregnant wife.  Whoever is (FDA, Pfizer, CDC, etc) should sell me on both necessity and safety.  If you’re buying a car and someone tells you “that car is unreliable” the salesmen could reply “you prove it!”  But you don’t have to buy the car unless you want to; if the salesman wants to make a sale he should probably convince you to buy it.  

To continue this analogy, in the crazy world of C19 vaccines the salesmen have convinced the government to force you buy it while also censoring true facts indicating the car is unreliable.