COVID-19 (Aka China Virus)

[dream big]

15 minutes ago, Negatory said:

I don’t know why, but this thread being locked and then reopened with this crap has really hit a nerve. I’m tired of these “points” that aren’t points. Are we ever going to acknowledge facts and actually debate policies based on reason opposed to emotion? Are we going to talk about things like reasonable age based policies or rotating geographic protections? Are we ever going to actually acknowledge that the real risk is somewhere in the middle of “0.00007%” and “everyone is at significant risk?” Are we going to talk about risk based policies that actually take into account things like BMI, race, or health status to more effectively deal with this pandemic? Are we going to discuss policies to actually temporarily deal with the increased real hospital risk over time in a population if we do have a large infection? Are we going to discuss the high chance that Omicron actually will max out hospitals again even with vaccines based on its extremely high infection rate and ability to evade previous immunity? About how it’s almost a mathematical certainty we will approach 1.0M cases per day in the next week?

Or are we going to keep posting politicized, debunked talking points on both the liberal and conservative sides and then argue about how they’re wrong when we’ve had these discussions 10 times already? Whether that’s folks on the left not acknowledging the significantly diminished effects of the vaccine on transmission/infection or folks on the right posting bs talking points like you just did - it’s all fuckin stupid. But, just as you would say “Orange man bad” to condense an actually intricate thought into a BS political viewpoint, I guess I could just summarize your post as “Brandon XD lol”.

I’m reminded of a good ole saying that generally holds true - definitely in these debates: “The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude larger than is needed to produce it.” But let’s look at his “points.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini's_law

1) 0 religious exceptions have been passed - so what? This is a question literally just to generate outrage, but not logically. We’ve addressed hypocrisy here in other threads, and I don’t think it was successfully refuted, but I guess if you keep saying that religious exemptions should be approved then by golly I guess they should be.

2) Him asking why the FDA didn’t explicitly recommend the vaccine is irrelevant when the CDC explicitly does recommend it. Oh, why didn’t he mention that? Intentionally misleading to split hairs between gov organizations to make it seem like the government doesn’t have a stance

3) The vaccine has been highly politicized, resulting in orders of magnitude higher reporting than for previous vaccines. This is literally just how politics appears in statistics - its comparing tomatoes to apples. I agree that there are potentially mildly increased risks of myocarditis for young males - but that’s not his point. He is saying that there are blanket increased rates of adverse events - which isn’t true, it’s just total numbers.

4) Bullshit trying to mislead people about Comirnaty generic vs brand when they are chemically identical and the government treats them legally the exact same. But he didn’t want to mention that? This is maybe the dumbest argument that armchair lawyers love to cite.

5) Only looking at deaths is intentionally misleading when we’ve seen that COVID can make things like carrier or submarine readiness questionable based purely on sickness, outbreaks, or long term effects. You had COVID? It takes you out for a few days. Oh and don’t forget that 10-30% of folks that had COVID have long term effects on their neuromuscular, digestive, respiratory, or cardiovascular systems. But we can ignore that. We can ignore everything but deaths, right? By the way, you’re also required to be vaccinated against rubella and the flu, which are significantly less bad from every aspect, yet where are the complaints? Also, quick question, how many marines have died from Rubella?

And I’m done here. It has taken me 10 times the energy to halfway refute this dumb video that has “legitimate questions.” Every singe one was intentionally misleading, largely fallacious, and irrelevant. I honestly look forward to this guy and similarly misguided folks like him that spout BS on social media in uniform getting their well-deserved discharges.

To end this rant on an even more sarcastic note, make sure to listen to Donald Trump’s recent direction to go get your booster.

Not sure what your last point is, are you trying to say that even Donald Trump got the booster so why would most non-vaxxers (conceivably Trump supporters) not get it? 
 

 

[glockenspiel]

7 hours ago, Negatory said:

I don’t know why, but this thread being locked and then reopened with this crap has really hit a nerve. I’m tired of these “points” that aren’t points. Are we ever going to acknowledge facts and actually debate policies based on reason opposed to emotion? Are we going to talk about things like reasonable age based policies or rotating geographic protections? Are we ever going to actually acknowledge that the real risk is somewhere in the middle of “0.00007%” and “everyone is at significant risk?” Are we going to talk about risk based policies that actually take into account things like BMI, race, or health status to more effectively deal with this pandemic? Are we going to discuss policies to actually temporarily deal with the increased real hospital risk over time in a population if we do have a large infection? Are we going to discuss the high chance that Omicron actually will max out hospitals again even with vaccines based on its extremely high infection rate and ability to evade previous immunity? About how it’s almost a mathematical certainty we will approach 1.0M cases per day in the next week?

Or are we going to keep posting politicized, debunked talking points on both the liberal and conservative sides and then argue about how they’re wrong when we’ve had these discussions 10 times already? Whether that’s folks on the left not acknowledging the significantly diminished effects of the vaccine on transmission/infection or folks on the right posting bs talking points like you just did - it’s all in stupid. But, just as you would say “Orange man bad” to condense an actually intricate thought into a BS political viewpoint, I guess I could just summarize your post as “Brandon XD lol”.

I’m reminded of a good ole saying that generally holds true - definitely in these debates: “The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude larger than is needed to produce it.” But let’s look at his “points.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini's_law

1) 0 religious exceptions have been passed - so what? This is a question literally just to generate outrage, but not logically. We’ve addressed hypocrisy here in other threads, and I don’t think it was successfully refuted, but I guess if you keep saying that religious exemptions should be approved then by golly I guess they should be.

2) Him asking why the FDA didn’t explicitly recommend the vaccine is irrelevant when the CDC explicitly does recommend it. Oh, why didn’t he mention that? Intentionally misleading to split hairs between gov organizations to make it seem like the government doesn’t have a stance

3) The vaccine has been highly politicized, resulting in orders of magnitude higher reporting than for previous vaccines. This is literally just how politics appears in statistics - its comparing tomatoes to apples. I agree that there are potentially mildly increased risks of myocarditis for young males - but that’s not his point. He is saying that there are blanket increased rates of adverse events - which isn’t true, it’s just total numbers.

4) Bullshit trying to mislead people about Comirnaty generic vs brand when they are chemically identical and the government treats them legally the exact same. But he didn’t want to mention that? This is maybe the dumbest argument that armchair lawyers love to cite.

5) Only looking at deaths is intentionally misleading when we’ve seen that COVID can make things like carrier or submarine readiness questionable based purely on sickness, outbreaks, or long term effects. You had COVID? It takes you out for a few days. Oh and don’t forget that 10-30% of folks that had COVID have long term effects on their neuromuscular, digestive, respiratory, or cardiovascular systems. But we can ignore that. We can ignore everything but deaths, right? By the way, you’re also required to be vaccinated against rubella and the flu, which are significantly less bad from every aspect, yet where are the complaints? Also, quick question, how many marines have died from Rubella?

And I’m done here. It has taken me 10 times the energy to halfway refute this dumb video that has “legitimate questions.” Every singe one was intentionally misleading, largely fallacious, and irrelevant. I honestly look forward to this guy and similarly misguided folks like him that spout BS on social media in uniform getting their well-deserved discharges as they intentionally disrupt good order and discipline.

To end this rant on an even more sarcastic note, make sure to listen to Donald Trump’s recent direction to go get your booster.

I didn’t say anything about Trump….

thanks for taking the time to go through a few questions!
 

at the end of the day leaders regardless of their position on the mandate should do their level headed best to speak these “antivaxxers” with empathy, as I think some of the dissent is legitimate, whereas other dissent is fueled but mistrust instituted by FDA, Fauci, Trump, Biden and others ( “y’all aren’t horses”, “we need 55years to release documents”, “I am science”, “ you won’t get sick if you take the vaccine”, “these vaccines are miracles”, “take the vaccine so we can finally defeat covid”)— misleading, condescending comments, straight up lies, poor predictions, low accountability and bad policies have got many SM ready to pull chute. I hope they don’t because I think our military would suffer if there were a substantial step function decrease across all branches at once. 

[FLEA]

4 hours ago, glockenspiel said:

I didn’t say anything about Trump….

thanks for taking the time to go through a few questions!
 

at the end of the day leaders regardless of their position on the mandate should do their level headed best to speak these “antivaxxers” with empathy, as I think some of the dissent is legitimate, whereas other dissent is fueled but mistrust instituted by FDA, Fauci, Trump, Biden and others ( “y’all aren’t horses”, “we need 55years to release documents”, “I am science”, “ you won’t get sick if you take the vaccine”, “these vaccines are miracles”, “take the vaccine so we can finally defeat covid”)— misleading, condescending comments, straight up lies, poor predictions, low accountability and bad policies have got many SM ready to pull chute. I hope they don’t because I think our military would suffer if there were a substantial step function decrease across all branches at once. 

I don't know why Fauci isnt fired yet to be honest. That would go a long way to restoring trust. The dude is terrible at his job. How many unfilled promises has he made about when the pandemic would be over? I'm sure he was a very smart infectious disease researcher at one point in his career but he seems like the type of person that is promoted to policy maker and fails to understand the nuances that go with being a leader in that type of position vs just being an expert in your field. Always under promise and over deliver, not the other way around. Could you imagine the complete distrust and backlash that would occur if Austin promised US troops we would avoid war with Russia this year, and then a few weeks from now we end up in the Ukraine? His credibility would be shot. That's why despite however unlikely it is, we continue to tell people to prepare and be ready. 

The message from the beginning of the pandemic should have been consistent. "Americans should be prepared to live with social distancing for a few years but we will do everything possible to end the pandemic as soon as possible." Instead we got remarks like "2 weeks to flatten the curve" and "we will be back to normal life in the fall." Fauci is terrible because he doesn't understand the #1 rule of BO.net. Never pass up an opportunity to stfu. And everytime he says something, nature has its way and makes him look like an ass. 

The other thing that would go a long way is a small but simple legislation that guarantees future research on vaccine long term side effects by providing grant money, and then a crises fund to deal with any uncovered side effects. The research is small beans only in the few million dollars. The crises fund would take a bit more but if the vaccine is as safe as they say, which I predict it is, that bill could be earmarked to revest that money after 10 years. 

 

 

[brickhistory]

It would be interesting to see the cost-benefit analysis in an after-action by DoD regarding the blanket order, ostensibly designed to save lives and the efficiency of the fighting force, and the dollars sunk/experience lost for those who are refusing, for whatever reason, this order.

Napkin-level figures, but call it 10,000 AD across the Department.  Not all are going to be basics or first assignment enlisted, just as not all are going to be senior, soon-to-retire senior ranks, officer and enlisted.

Compare those to the numbers that were expected to be lost -death or disability - to China virus in the Department.  How much time and energy has been expended in the administrative process to review all the exception requests, not to mention the discharge process.

But it's only taxpayer money, so who cares?

Next is on to prepping for the coup and rooting out those "extremists!"

  https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/2024-election-result-coup-trump-b1978961.html

[ViperMan]

14 hours ago, Negatory said:

Are we ever going to actually acknowledge that the real risk is somewhere in the middle of “0.00007%” and “everyone is at significant risk?” Are we going to talk about risk based policies that actually take into account things like BMI, race, or health status to more effectively deal with this pandemic?

Note, you can start that discussion any time you like - and there is also a law (can't remember what it's called) that says you don't have to disprove bullshit, or convince stupid people that they're dumb. So don't worry about it. The Alex Jones and Berenson types can generally be ignored.

Also, I'm not about to defend any of these stupid videos of soldiers "standing up" to the PTB and demanding answers to questions. I think they are grossly misguided, as a rule, and I don't think I would have made a good Marine. In any case, I think it's worth continuing the discussion on this point in particular.

14 hours ago, Negatory said:

1) 0 religious exceptions have been passed - so what? This is a question literally just to generate outrage, but not logically. We’ve addressed hypocrisy here in other threads, and I don’t think it was successfully refuted, but I guess if you keep saying that religious exemptions should be approved then by golly I guess they should be.

On this point, my personal belief is that there should be zero religious exemptions for anything in the military. Like, there shouldn't be regulatory guidance that governs religious exemptions. The only thing they do is put military leaders in the impossible situation of determining what "sincerely held" means - which is not a determination that can be made, unfortunately - and then arbitrarily granting and denying them based on that determination. This undermines their roles as leaders, because it does, in actuality, force their decisions to be arbitrary. But in any case, since religious exemptions are a thing, it matters.

I looked for, but could not find, a historical example of a religious exemption for a vaccine in the military. That said, I have a feeling that they're out there, and that they have been approved in the past. Taking that admitted assumption as the case, it was made clear to us as the ramp up to the vaccine being released that "religious exemptions" would not be a thing for the COVID vaccine. Well, ok, cool - not that I particularly care - but why was this message pushed out so clearly, and with such certainty? That occurrence strongly suggests to me that this is an "unofficially official" policy that there will not be any religious exemptions to this vaccine. The idea was floated at the highest levels of our government, and it was made absolutely, crystal clear, that there will not, under any circumstance, be exceptions to this policy - history and our present reality reflects that.

Why is that important? Because it adds to my suspicion that this is all theater. And every day that passes, I become more and more convinced that it actually is. We locked down when this thing first began, and at its absolute worst, we were seeing ~250K/ cases per day with ~3-4K deaths per day (if you subscribe to the notion that COVID was the sole cause of death, which I do not; https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/index.html). Now, you're telling me that this thing is going to imminently peak not only to that level, but at a rate (mathematical certainty) that will top it by 4X!!! Are you kidding me? And all we get from #1 is a statement that if your vaxxed, you can go on vacation, but if you're not, you're gonna die??? Mkay. I don't believe you. I don't believe that these people actually think we're heading to a space where 12,000-16,000 people are going to be dying every day. I don't believe they believe that. If they did, they'd be taking different steps. It's fear porn in order to justify expediency that there is otherwise no appetite for. If they do believe that, and that's all they're doing, then they're even more cynical people than I already think.

[VMFA187]

2 hours ago, FLEA said:

I don't know why Fauci isnt fired yet to be honest. 

The message from the beginning of the pandemic should have been consistent. "Americans should be prepared to live with social distancing for a few years but we will do everything possible to end the pandemic as soon as possible." Instead we got remarks like "2 weeks to flatten the curve" and "we will be back to normal life in the fall." Fauci is terrible because he doesn't understand the #1 rule of BO.net. Never pass up an opportunity to stfu. And everytime he says something, nature has its way and makes him look like an ass. 

 

 

They can't - The far left take his word as gospel and only the far left continue to feel that Biden is doing a satisfactory job. If this administration fired him they would lose their most ardent supporters while gaining very little from the rest of the population who feel that this administration is failing.

Who would have bought into that slogan? I know a fair amount of people and only one has been hospitalized from covid - I wouldn't be willing to "social distance for a few years" from what I've seen. With that said, I know that some here have experienced loss and for that I do sympathize. But I would not and will not give up years of my life to provide a larger margin of safety for those who have already chosen to condemn themselves by way of their years of poor decision-making as it relates to diet and healthy lifestyles.

They made their bed, they can sleep in it. Don't expect others to subsidize your poor past decisions. 

[Sim]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/arc38wavyy7pjkh/CCCA - Pfizer Trial Breakdown -The COVID-19 Inoculations -More Harm Than Good (Dec. 15%2C 2021).pdf?dl=0

"Safe and effective" 🙄

[TheNewGazmo]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/arc38wavyy7pjkh/CCCA - Pfizer Trial Breakdown -The COVID-19 Inoculations -More Harm Than Good (Dec. 15%2C 2021).pdf?dl=0
"Safe and effective" 

Yes, but let's just ignore all that and keep pushing the vax campaign because the C19 vaxxer clan has so much data to contradict the above report...

[BashiChuni]

i think LIE-zer has spent north of 2 billion on their vax....they must push it with government help. cant just develop a product for billions and then turn that off

[Prozac]

4 hours ago, Sim said:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/arc38wavyy7pjkh/CCCA - Pfizer Trial Breakdown -The COVID-19 Inoculations -More Harm Than Good (Dec. 15%2C 2021).pdf?dl=0

"Safe and effective" 🙄

Ah yes, the “Canadian Covid Care Alliance”. With an innocuous name like that, they must surely be a credible organization. Or not: https://factcheck.afp.com/canadian-doctors-make-inaccurate-covid-19-claims-video

[ViperMan]

1 hour ago, Prozac said:

Ah yes, the “Canadian Covid Care Alliance”. With an innocuous name like that, they must surely be a credible organization. Or not: https://factcheck.afp.com/canadian-doctors-make-inaccurate-covid-19-claims-video

I know nothing of the CCCA, but if we're attacking organizations based on who they are vs what they're saying, we are probably masking a weak position. Remember, the WHO is not allowed to acknowledge that Taiwan is an independent nation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlCYFh8U2xM). That in and of itself means they have at least some level of inside political discourse - which indicates their positions and policies are beholden to those same politics. I suppose that discredits them in your eyes, right?

[Negatory]

We’ll just have to wait and see on cases. I am certain we’ll hit 1.0M, although many of those cases won’t be tested. Probably see 600-700k confirmed cases a day is my bet, with 40-60% not detected due to either being asymptomatic or mild.

In the spirit of keeping up with the science, preliminary data used in studies shows that while Omicron is super contagious, it is significantly less bad from an individual outcome perspective. Maybe this will be a blessing to finally get everyone immunity, whether you want it or not.

https://mynorthwest.com/3289906/uw-modelers-project-3-billion-new-covid-19-cases-by-february/

“UW researchers said the omicron hospitalization rate is between 4 and 10% that of delta, and that the fatality rate is 1 to 3% that of delta.”

Also, rates like that - up to 10-20 times less likely to be hospitalized or 30-100 times less likely to die - make it almost false reporting to even call this disease COVID. Because it is not very similar to Delta.

Legitimately, if these estimates turn out to be true, it will be significantly less bad for an individual than the flu. Only question is, will the hospital system in America be able to deal with 60-140M people getting “the flu” in the next few months?

[TheNewGazmo]

And with that (the flu) being mentioned, our national flu "vaccine" coverage is only 43.4% (according to the CDC). Why aren't people being admonished and highlighted on national media for not getting their flu jab to "flatten the curve"?

[Prozac]

13 hours ago, ViperMan said:

I know nothing of the CCCA, but if we're attacking organizations based on who they are vs what they're saying, we are probably masking a weak position. Remember, the WHO is not allowed to acknowledge that Taiwan is an independent nation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlCYFh8U2xM). That in and of itself means they have at least some level of inside political discourse - which indicates their positions and policies are beholden to those same politics. I suppose that discredits them in your eyes, right?

So your retort basically boils down to “waddabout the WHO?” and doesn’t address the shaky credibility of the organization actually in question?  All while making assumptions about my own views on the WHO (which I have made zero comments on).  Got it. This is how dumbed down debate has become in our society. 

Edited December 24, 2021 by Prozac
Punctuation is hard.

[BashiChuni]

8 minutes ago, Prozac said:

So your retort basically boils down to “waddabout the WHO?” and doesn’t address the shaky credibility of the organization actually in question?  All while making assumptions about my own views on the WHO (which I have made zero comments on).  Got it. This is how dumbed down debate has become in our society. 

I clicked on the “fact check” link you posted above. First paragraph: “But public health experts said it includes misleading claims about variants of the disease and immunity”

 

here’s the problem. Public health “experts” have been wrong. California public health experts told people to stay off the beach. To not walk on outdoor trails. To bulldoze sand and fill in skate parks. To lock up basketball hoops. To close down outdoor dining (reference tin flats CA). Public health “experts” said trust us it’s only two weeks to slow the spread. Just flatten the curve that’s all. The nations leading public health “expert” went on national television and said masks are not required. Lol. 
 

so pardon my French but public health “experts” have been full of shit from day one. Not one ounce of humility from any “expert”. Not one ounce of “wow we were wrong”. 
 

so the Canadian doctors who are part of that alliance have just as much (if not more) credibility than your so called fact checking experts. 

[BashiChuni]

Public health experts are advocating in some states to discriminate the unvaxed from hospitals, grocery stores, malls, etc. public health experts are cheering about digital vaccine passports. 
 

these experts are full of it. 

[BashiChuni]

Also public health experts said this is a epidemic of the “unvaccinated”

 

oops. Wrong again. 

[BashiChuni]

So how ANYONE still puts their full faith and trust in these so called experts is beyond me. 
 

maybe you’re the one who is blind/deceived. 
 

 

[BashiChuni]

Hell public health “experts” got twitter to ban “misinformation” such as asymptomatic individuals DO NOT spread COVID. If you pushed that out on twitter watch out for the ban hammer. 
 

fast forward. Oops! Looks like there’s a case for that POV. From which conspiracy theorist!? 
 

oh just the fucking NFL. You know, those WACK JOBS. 

 

 

[Prozac]

Ahhh, so “public health experts have been wrong” = we should instead put our full faith in whatever “alternative” media that comes across our twitter feeds. You guys make some air tight arguments. 

[BashiChuni]

8 minutes ago, Prozac said:

Ahhh, so “public health experts have been wrong” = we should instead put our full faith in whatever “alternative” media that comes across our twitter feeds. You guys make some air tight arguments. 

They’re fucking doctors

just as air tight as you sucking the tit of any government spokesman pushing their narrative on mainstream media. 

Edited December 24, 2021 by BashiChuni

[dream big]

1 hour ago, BashiChuni said:

Public health experts are advocating in some states to discriminate the unvaxed from hospitals, grocery stores, malls, etc. public health experts are cheering about digital vaccine passports. 
 

these experts are full of it. 

Fear and ridicule are excellent persuasion tactics though! The Air Force has taught me that.

[Prozac]

2 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

They’re fucking doctors

just as air tight as you sucking the tit of any government spokesman pushing their narrative on mainstream media. 

Cool. And here are some scientists that believe in creationism: 

https://isgenesishistory.com/7-scientists-explain-why-they-are-creationists/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIhcjz35v99AIVQwPnCh2VjwAnEAMYASAAEgKSw_D_BwE

I could also point you in the direction of some pilots who believe the earth is flat, biologists who believe in Bigfoot, astronomers who believe the moon landing was faked, etc, etc. Do they have equal credibility because of their credentials? Look, I’m not saying there aren’t issues with mainstream science and/or media. But when someone is arguing outside of  what is generally accepted by the mainstream, that tends to be a red flag and they better back it up with some extraordinary proof. The chances that you’ve stumbled upon some brilliant doctor on social media who spews truth and is too base for the “lame stream” are pretty slim. 

[bfargin]

There are all kinds of idiots who claim to believe in macroevolution despite no scientific evidence to support that "theory". So I agree Prozac, just because someone has an MD or PhD label behind their name doesn't mean they critically think.

[VMFA187]

5 hours ago, Prozac said:

Cool. And here are some scientists that believe in creationism: 

https://isgenesishistory.com/7-scientists-explain-why-they-are-creationists/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIhcjz35v99AIVQwPnCh2VjwAnEAMYASAAEgKSw_D_BwE

I could also point you in the direction of some pilots who believe the earth is flat, biologists who believe in Bigfoot, astronomers who believe the moon landing was faked, etc, etc. Do they have equal credibility because of their credentials? Look, I’m not saying there aren’t issues with mainstream science and/or media. But when someone is arguing outside of  what is generally accepted by the mainstream, that tends to be a red flag and they better back it up with some extraordinary proof. The chances that you’ve stumbled upon some brilliant doctor on social media who spews truth and is too base for the “lame stream” are pretty slim. 

Every MD in California was sent a notification that stated they could lose their certification by the California Medical Board stating that they would potentially lose their license if they provided documentation for any waiver for the vaccine that was outside of the realm of "a demonstrated allergic reaction to ingredients in the vaccine." 

Several studies have shown, for specific segments of the population, the risks outweigh the benefits. For those who have epilepsy, 4% who received a vaccine experienced more frequent or more severe seizure activity. If you were in that population would you think you should be granted a medical exemption?

Legitimate question.