COVID-19 (Aka China Virus)

[jazzdude]

Agreed, we should wait for medical professionals to let us know when it’s safe to resume the constitution.

Well, they (medical professionals) don't have the authority to do much. Only advise our elected officials, who in turn can take the advice and act, or ignore it, and everything in between. I guess they can triage patients if space/supplies runs low, but that's driven by the demand for medical services.

If the executives (president, governors, etc) are overstepping their bounds, the legislatures or judicial branches need to step in and intervene.

A lot has changed in our society since the Constitution was written. Not saying the underlying principles necessarily need to change, but there are a lot of problems that didn't exist or weren't fully understood during the founding father's times, and it should be cause for us to reexamine as a country what we value and believe in.

Germ theory was still in it's infancy when the Constitution was written, and they didn't have an understanding of what caused diseases and how they are spread like we do now. Couple that with rapid global transportation, and the ability for the average person to hop in their car and be a 1000 miles away in a day, and diseases can spread much further and faster than before.

On the flip side, it's never been easier to communicate and spread ideas. Way back then, press and assembling was the only real way to spread ideas and dissenting opinions, and why I think it's codified in the bill of Rights. Now, we have the ability to organize and spread ideas digitally; what role does press and assembling play now?

So how do we balance individual liberty against the liberty of others, and the needs of our society as a whole? Is access to medical care a right, and if so, where is the line drawn for what is or isn't covered, and how is it funded?

We need to have this discussion as a country, to reassess what we value and what our core beliefs are, and how to implement those beliefs and values. Lots of other things as well, like the reach and oversight of our intelligence community, the role and use of our military overseas, how to build and more importantly maintain critical infrastructure (and what things fall under critical infrastructure), etc.

It's not an easy task, but we need to elect leaders who will work through these core issues on behalf of their constituency. Should be an interesting election year given all the craziness so far, and hopefully we can get past partisan politics to solve these issues.

[SurelySerious]

Assembling to protest is far from outdated. With the ability of governments to silence and track digital communication, some argue it is more relevant than ever. 

[Lord Ratner]

12 hours ago, HU&W said:

Interesting you say that. 30-50% of patients tested at the Chicago Roseland hospital already have the antibody.  https://chicagocitywire.com/stories/530092711-roseland-hospital-phlebotomist-30-of-those-tested-have-coronavirus-antibody

This is my suspicion. When you read about the stories (like the choir that got hit hard), this thing is super, super, super contagious. And there's zero chance it wasn't already here in the US by December, probably November. So how the hell could it be isolated? I don't think it can. More likely, a ton of us got it and never knew, and the early deaths (Nov - Feb) simply weren't diagnosed, since everyone in the governments of the world were in denial mode. 

Once it really kicked off, and millions were infected, the low death rate (let's say .1%) still yields scary numbers. But it will also burn out quicker, since there are far fewer people left to be infected than we thought.

 

The social distancing was necessary and a bit late. The CDC lying about the effectiveness of masks in a stupid attempt to stop panic buying was a huge, huge fuck up. But we are probably a lot closer to opening everything up, but keeping the six foot spacing and masks on for the summer.

 

The next hurdle is when the economy catches up. There will be way more fallout from this than a one-month recession followed by a rally. Great opportunity to invest if you don't lose your job.

 

Edited April 17, 2020 by Lord Ratner

[ThreeHoler]

If this is a crisis, declare Marshall law; then you can drag worshippers out of synagogues and arrest people solo on the beach with at least an appearance of legality.

Martial.

[nsplayr]

19 minutes ago, ThreeHoler said:

Martial.

 

Ya never know, this may the Marshall Law @tac airlifter was talking about 😄I'm sure someone there could competently answer questions about what Governors are legally and Constitutionally allowed to do re:quarantiness and other public health emergencies.

University of Illinois at Chicago John Marshall Law School.

[tac airlifter]

1 hour ago, ThreeHoler said:

Martial.

 

Voice to text disagrees!😬

spear taken.

[Prosuper]

Just noticing today in OKC that roads are getting busier and busier as the days pass. Some restaurant employees have been called back before they got their first unemployment checks and the OCALC depot is fully open with cautions and restrictions. We sent 3 jets back to Fairchild on the same day. 24 hour grocery stores and Walmart still have reduced hours and probably always will. My oil patch neighbors are hoping the recently signed agreement between Russia and KSA will hold but filling up my gas guzzler Bronco 32 gallon tank for a 1.31 avg is nice. I see a bunch of states especially blue ones will be the hardest hit, their budgets are blown to hell and tax revenue shortfalls. Lots of Governor's will be bending a knee to POTUS. Amazon seems to be normal again, got a package in only 3 days . My conclusion is local economies will open up not caring what any hack politician says, most peoples kitchens are only stocked for 2 weeks if that and they still have bills to pay. 

Edited April 17, 2020 by Prosuper
grammar

[waveshaper]

4 hours ago, Prosuper said:

 My oil patch neighbors are hoping the recently signed agreement between Russia and KSA will hold but filling up my gas guzzler Bronco 32 gallon tank for a 1.31 avg is nice.

Gas will probably be getting cheaper than dirt in the coming days/weeks? Current WTI futures this AM = the upper $17 range.

[fire4effect]

6 hours ago, Prosuper said:

Just noticing today in OKC that roads are getting busier and busier as the days pass. Some restaurant employees have been called back before they got their first unemployment checks and the OCALC depot is fully open with cautions and restrictions. We sent 3 jets back to Fairchild on the same day. 24 hour grocery stores and Walmart still have reduced hours and probably always will. My oil patch neighbors are hoping the recently signed agreement between Russia and KSA will hold but filling up my gas guzzler Bronco 32 gallon tank for a 1.31 avg is nice. I see a bunch of states especially blue ones will be the hardest hit, their budgets are blown to hell and tax revenue shortfalls. Lots of Governor's will be bending a knee to POTUS. Amazon seems to be normal again, got a package in only 3 days . My conclusion is local economies will open up not caring what any hack politician says, most peoples kitchens are only stocked for 2 weeks if that and they still have bills to pay. 

There's a lot to be said for living in the Midwest where we don't live on top of each other or have to depend on a subway or other mass transit (and the pathogens they can harbor) to get to work.

Edited April 17, 2020 by fire4effect
Grammur

[Pooter]

20 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

Agreed, we should wait for medical professionals to let us know when it’s safe to resume the constitution.  Until then, let’s put our faith in constantly changing projections/recommendations and continue arresting church goers.  Safety first, whatever the cost!

Sarcasm BTW.  If this is a crisis, declare Marshall law; then you can drag worshippers out of synagogues and arrest people solo on the beach with at least an appearance of legality.  But we don’t live in a country where “professionals” make guesses and governors enforce mandates which trample the Bill of Rights.... although clearly some of you want to live under that tyranny.

 The bad guys never realize they’re the bad guys.

These horror stories of police arresting people on the beach or dragging people out of church are way overblown.  The media is going to over-report anything that will get views and outrage--similar to how they wayyyyy over-report police shootings of minorities.  

Regardless, I think this 'gubment better not take my rights' argument is really alarmist and simplistic.  The government doesn't want to be arresting solo beach goers just as much as said beach goers don't want to be arrested.  And how is this any different from a mandatory hurricane evacuation order?  The government tells people what they can and can't do all the time, and once the crisis passes, things return to normal.  Acting like this is some kind of slippery slope to a 1984 dystopian hellscape is pretty ridiculous. 

I'd even argue that the current crisis gives police better justification to arrest people not following the rules than a hurricane does.  If you disregard a mandatory evacuation at least the only person you're hurting is yourself.  In a pandemic, someone's flagrant disregard of public health guidance endangers other people too.  Do others have a constitutional right to not be infected by idiots who refuse to follow the rules?

 

Full disclosure: If it wasn't possible for church goers to infect others, I'd be all for them voluntarily gathering in the largest groups possible.  Disregarding public health guidance to worship your imaginary man in the sky is a beautiful example of both constitutional rights and natural selection.  

Edited April 17, 2020 by Pooter

[raimius]

If banning church services (even ones following health guidance) even makes it to a judge, we have a F'd up situation.  The fact that numerous civil servants thought it was a good idea AND did not reconsider when first called out demonstrates that these concerns are not simply academic hyperbole.

[Clark Griswold]

Meanwhile south of the border, this is pandemic is having another effect I fear, weakening the government of Mexico by giving the cartels more opportunities to build more tolerance/support for them via their distribution of aid/gifts to the local populace:

https://news.trust.org/item/20200416225321-17fmm

and in Syria:

https://news.trust.org/item/20200416092024-5lsgm

So it looks like the developed world is starting to get its feet underneath it again, likely in two weeks we will generally be reopening and if all goes well, probably in two more months we are still doing mitigation procedures but probably back to "normal" now what do we do to help the developing world?

Not being a bleeding heart by any stretch but a grim realist, the next mission is to get ready for responding to refugees, outbreaks in slum/shanty towns, weak states failing, etc... I don't want us to get overextended but we will likely be needed if the excrement hits the fan to prevent a bad situation from getting worse and spilling its banks.

So... preemptively meet with allies and develop plans for likely AORs, negotiate with govs for intervention if conditions arise necessitating it, etc..?

[GrndPndr]

3 hours ago, Pooter said:

These horror stories of police arresting people on the beach or dragging people out of church are way overblown.  The media is going to over-report anything that will get views and outrage--similar to how they wayyyyy over-report police shootings of minorities.  

Regardless, I think this 'gubment better not take my rights' argument is really alarmist and simplistic.  The government doesn't want to be arresting solo beach goers just as much as said beach goers don't want to be arrested.  And how is this any different from a mandatory hurricane evacuation order?  The government tells people what they can and can't do all the time, and once the crisis passes, things return to normal.  Acting like this is some kind of slippery slope to a 1984 dystopian hellscape is pretty ridiculous. 

I'd even argue that the current crisis gives police better justification to arrest people not following the rules than a hurricane does.  If you disregard a mandatory evacuation at least the only person you're hurting is yourself.  In a pandemic, someone's flagrant disregard of public health guidance endangers other people too.  Do others have a constitutional right to not be infected by idiots who refuse to follow the rules?

 

Full disclosure: If it wasn't possible for church goers to infect others, I'd be all for them voluntarily gathering in the largest groups possible.  Disregarding public health guidance to worship your imaginary man in the sky is a beautiful example of both constitutional rights and natural selection.  

Are you a "Scaredy-Cat?"

https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-coronavirus-is-breaking-down-along-familiar-political-lines-11586001600?mod=searchresults&page=6&pos=18

Edited April 17, 2020 by GrndPndr
Added Link for "not-made-up" statistics

[Pooter]

21 minutes ago, raimius said:

If banning church services (even ones following health guidance) even makes it to a judge, we have a F'd up situation.  The fact that numerous civil servants thought it was a good idea AND did not reconsider when first called out demonstrates that these concerns are not simply academic hyperbole.

Sorry but the F'd up situation is when we have churches convincing their congregations that it's safe to come in person despite all medical guidance pointing to the contrary.  

https://www.texastribune.org/2020/04/02/texas-churches-coronavirus-stay-open/

Harvard University epidemiologist Bill Hanage ticked off examples of virus transmission in houses of worship in London, South Korea, Singapore and the state of Georgia and said exempting religious services from shelter-in-place orders is “an incredibly bad idea.”

 

Also it has never been easier to live stream a worship service to the internet for all to see.  This isn't the old days where you have to be a megachurch with tv or radio broadcast infrastructure.  You need a cell phone and a youtube account.  

[BashiChuni]

On 4/16/2020 at 10:04 AM, Pooter said:

There is a very realistic possibility that this thing will go right back to exponential growth if we lift restrictions too soon.  Would you like to do this dick dance shutdown all over again?  Why don't we listen to our medical professionals and lift restrictions once the virus has hit R0 and penetration percentages that they deem are good enough to not cause another giant global shit storm.  

because that wasn't the deal that was sold for american constitutional rights to get violated

 

[BashiChuni]

4 hours ago, Pooter said:

Acting like this is some kind of slippery slope to a 1984 dystopian hellscape is pretty ridiculous. 

no it's not

 

"The logic goes something like this: any and all measures we take to prevent community transmission are justifiable because they will prevent infections and therefore prevent deaths among these vulnerable groups. In a medical sense this is irrefutable, but the underlying assumption of this logic is that the onus on the individual to protect themselves should be almost totally removed in favor of controlling the behavior of everyone, no matter how susceptible they may be. Some unsavory individuals [POOTER] prefer to make it personal and equate any resistance to an indefinite period of social isolation as wishing death upon those who are least likely to be able to fight the virus."

BINGO!

https://spectator.us/coronavirus-lockdowns-cowardice/

Edited April 17, 2020 by BashiChuni

[dream big]

4 hours ago, Pooter said:

These horror stories of police arresting people on the beach or dragging people out of church are way overblown.  The media is going to over-report anything that will get views and outrage--similar to how they wayyyyy over-report police shootings of minorities.  

Regardless, I think this 'gubment better not take my rights' argument is really alarmist and simplistic.  The government doesn't want to be arresting solo beach goers just as much as said beach goers don't want to be arrested.  And how is this any different from a mandatory hurricane evacuation order?  The government tells people what they can and can't do all the time, and once the crisis passes, things return to normal.  Acting like this is some kind of slippery slope to a 1984 dystopian hellscape is pretty ridiculous. 

I'd even argue that the current crisis gives police better justification to arrest people not following the rules than a hurricane does.  If you disregard a mandatory evacuation at least the only person you're hurting is yourself.  In a pandemic, someone's flagrant disregard of public health guidance endangers other people too.  Do others have a constitutional right to not be infected by idiots who refuse to follow the rules?

 

Full disclosure: If it wasn't possible for church goers to infect others, I'd be all for them voluntarily gathering in the largest groups possible.  Disregarding public health guidance to worship your imaginary man in the sky is a beautiful example of both constitutional rights and natural selection.  

No, on everything you said.  Government can tell us what to do after it is passed into LAW, that is if that law isn’t shut down by the courts for violating the constitution.   That is how our republic works.  Checks and balances.  If that fails, then people have the right to protest.  Governors like that tyrant in Michigan can not arbitrarily step outside constitutional authority in the name of safety.  The precedent that sets is 10x worse than the effects of this virus.  
 

We are the greatest country on earth, not because we are the safest or the healthiest, but because of the freedoms and rights that we have; that many of us swore an oath to defend.  I’ll take that any day! 

[brickhistory]

That sure is a nice Constitution and Bill of Rights ya got there.

Sure would be a shame if, cough..cough, something were to happen to it.

 

 

If non-elected or even elected officials can deny some of our inherent rights, do I get to have a say?  I'm pretty sure I do and will.

If some here want to wave away some of my rights because they don't use/care about particular ones, do I get to wave away the ones I don't think you need?

 

Pretty sure it doesn't work that way.

[drewpey]

1 hour ago, Pooter said:

Sorry but the F'd up situation is when we have churches convincing their congregations that it's safe to come in person despite all medical guidance pointing to the contrary.  

https://www.texastribune.org/2020/04/02/texas-churches-coronavirus-stay-open/

Harvard University epidemiologist Bill Hanage ticked off examples of virus transmission in houses of worship in London, South Korea, Singapore and the state of Georgia and said exempting religious services from shelter-in-place orders is “an incredibly bad idea.”

 

Also it has never been easier to live stream a worship service to the internet for all to see.  This isn't the old days where you have to be a megachurch with tv or radio broadcast infrastructure.  You need a cell phone and a youtube account.  

Wow you really pissed off the "imaginary guy in the sky" crowd!  Have my upvote.  It's true though...you can't claim to be a shepherd for you folks if you are herding them towards danger.  Don't worry, this dude has us all covered.  I ain't skeered.

 

To all the people pearl clutching about government overreach of the constitution...where have you been the last few years?  It's like with the quarantine they finally were able to read past the second half of the second amendment.  Welcome to the party.

[tac airlifter]

2 hours ago, Pooter said:

Sorry but the F'd up situation is when we have churches convincing their congregations that it's safe to come in person despite all medical guidance pointing to the contrary.  

https://www.texastribune.org/2020/04/02/texas-churches-coronavirus-stay-open/

Harvard University epidemiologist Bill Hanage ticked off examples of virus transmission in houses of worship in London, South Korea, Singapore and the state of Georgia and said exempting religious services from shelter-in-place orders is “an incredibly bad idea.”

Given that Harvard helped facilitate grant money for viral research in Wuhan, please forgive me if I’m unconvinced at their authority and judgement on this subject.  Were these the experts who said wearing a mask was useless, or the ones who recommended criminal penalties for not wearing one?

Out of curiosity, am I more likely to catch the rona at a mosque or standing in line to buy rum tonight?  Because one is allowed but the other isn’t, and the logical inconsistency is confusing.  
 
And just to go full Godwins Law... Expert medical advice in 1939 was that Jews should be herded into ghettos for “public health.”  But let’s all laugh at history and play funny videos of retreaded internet preachers, we’ve evolved past government abuses nowadays! 

[Pooter]

18 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

Given that Harvard helped facilitate grant money for viral research in Wuhan, please forgive me if I’m unconvinced at their authority and judgement on this subject.  Were these the experts who said wearing a mask was useless, or the ones who recommended criminal penalties for not wearing one?

If a potential Harvard conflict of interest or lack of credibility is worrying you, I can find other sources on whether gathering in large groups indoors during a pandemic is a good idea.  Want to take a guess at what they say?

20 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

Out of curiosity, am I more likely to catch the rona at a mosque or standing in line to buy rum tonight?  Because one is allowed but the other isn’t, and the logical inconsistency is confusing.  

The mosque. Or church. Or synagogue.  Hands down.. unless people at your local liquor store spontaneously break into song in close proximity to one another,  dunk each other into pools of water, and then share the same snack with hundreds of their closest friends.

27 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

And just to go full Godwins Law... Expert medical advice in 1939 was that Jews should be herded into ghettos for “public health.”  But let’s all laugh at history and play funny videos of retreaded internet preachers, we’ve evolved past government abuses nowadays! 

If you want to talk about history, it is absolutely full of the church being at odds with science.. and ending up wrong.  We certainly haven't evolved past government abuses, but apparently we've also not evolved past religions' blatant disregard for medical advice.  

[tac airlifter]

42 minutes ago, Pooter said:

  We certainly haven't evolved past government abuses, but apparently we've also not evolved past religions' blatant disregard for medical advice.  

Agreed.  In fact, I don’t think we evolved at all, and am pleasantly surprised to know you share church orthodoxy on the subject of evolution rather than the “settled science” view.

😬

[Pooter]

16 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

Agreed.  In fact, I don’t think we evolved at all, and am pleasantly surprised to know you share church orthodoxy on the subject of evolution rather than the “settled science” view.

😬

Ruh Roh

[Homestar]

8 hours ago, Pooter said:

Full disclosure: If it wasn't possible for church goers to infect others, I'd be all for them voluntarily gathering in the largest groups possible.  Disregarding public health guidance to worship your imaginary man in the sky is a beautiful example of both constitutional rights and natural selection

You went from making a reasonable point to saying religious people should all get together and give themselves coronovirus because they’re stupid.  Not sure why or how you made this leap, but maybe you could try to bury your religious bigotry while you’re making your point. 

Edited April 18, 2020 by Homestar

[raimius]

On 4/17/2020 at 12:57 PM, Pooter said:

Sorry but the F'd up situation is when we have churches convincing their congregations that it's safe to come in person despite all medical guidance pointing to the contrary.  

https://www.texastribune.org/2020/04/02/texas-churches-coronavirus-stay-open/

Harvard University epidemiologist Bill Hanage ticked off examples of virus transmission in houses of worship in London, South Korea, Singapore and the state of Georgia and said exempting religious services from shelter-in-place orders is “an incredibly bad idea.”

 

Also it has never been easier to live stream a worship service to the internet for all to see.  This isn't the old days where you have to be a megachurch with tv or radio broadcast infrastructure.  You need a cell phone and a youtube account.  

That is a weak deflection.  The topic is government overreach and the violation of constitutional protections based on "emergency needs," not the wisdom or foolishness of being religious.  We can see your opinion on the latter by your condescending posts, but you are using your opinion against religious groups to mask the issue of the government violating numerous civil rights in an inconsistent and (sometimes) non-medically relevant manner (banning socially-distanced activities or "gatherings" of people who already live together, etc).