COVID-19 (Aka China Virus)

[arg]

25 minutes ago, Guardian said:

Why isn’t the world pushing this stuff so no one has to take the vaccine?
 

Stuff is cheap, there's enough here for five people, nice apple flavor too.

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/durvet-ivermectin-paste-187-608-g?cm_vc=-10005

[Prozac]

3 hours ago, brabus said:

 

95% effective at reducing/eliminating symptoms, but we have no idea if the vaccine stops transmission (we’re assuming no until proven otherwise). So honest question, why are we so concerned with 80% of people getting the shots - as you put it, let Darwin take its course.  If people get their shots and are protected, then why do they care if their neighbor does? In theory you have the full vaccination and I sneeze in your face, you’re protected at a 95% rate...this point has even more efficacy if the vaccine doesn’t stop transmission (unknown currently).

I care about overall vaccination numbers because even once I’m vaccinated, my unvaccinated neighbors will continue to fill up hospitals and drain resources from the local all the way up to the national level. I care about those numbers because if a large percentage of the population remains unvaccinated, that will extend policies requiring social distancing, mask wearing, and continue to hobble the economy. It really seems pretty simple to me: If you want your life back, get your vaccine and encourage your family, friends, coworkers, and neighbors to get it too. 

[brabus]

10 minutes ago, Prozac said:

my unvaccinated neighbors will continue to fill up hospitals and drain resources from the local all the way up to the national level.

Fair point. My follow up question/thought is once the high risk are vaccinated (assumption is that group is fairly open to/diligent about getting vaccinated), then will the lower risk group who remains unvaccinated really drain resources (because that’s also the same group who is hospitalized at a significantly lower rate)? 

 

13 minutes ago, Prozac said:

if a large percentage of the population remains unvaccinated, that will extend policies requiring social distancing, mask wearing, and continue to hobble the economy

Is the unvaccinated population the root cause, or is it the gov enacting policies that aren’t rational (especially in the near future as high risk populations are vaccinated), but don’t affect them personally/even benefit them in some ways? It behooves people to be skeptical when the gov says, “just do this because we said so, or else (fill in threats...)!”
 

The above is to generate thought/discussion, not an argument...since it can be difficult to tell by words alone.

[Homestar]

3 hours ago, Guardian said:

Why isn’t the world pushing this stuff so no one has to take the vaccine?
 

Yes. I wonder why doctors think this is bullshit....

https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-afs:Content:9768999400

Edited January 3, 2021 by Homestar
Punctuation

[BashiChuni]

59 minutes ago, brabus said:

 

the gov enacting policies that aren’t rational

this x1000. the government is ridiculous.

close small businesses....keep PACKED costcos and walmarts open.

close poker rooms...keep the craps tables open WTF?!

close down beaches?! wear a mask while jogging on isolated running trails?!

government doesn't know all, doesn't have your best interests, doesn't know how to keep you safe, and doesn't care about taking away your liberty.

and the lockdowns haven't worked, but people preach at you like locking down HARDER will work BETTER. crazy man. it really is incredible how easily it is to influence a large swath of the population to blindly follow bullshit.

[BashiChuni]

18 minutes ago, MyCS said:

If you receive the vaccine, you still have to wear a mask and social distance. They have said this repeatedly at the briefings I've attended.

Someone asked in a briefing how long it will last in a person's system. Nobody knew. 

how long should we wear bullshit masks? 1 year? 5? 10?

 

[Scooter14]

this x1000. the government is ridiculous.
close small businesses....keep PACKED costcos and walmarts open.
close poker rooms...keep the craps tables open WTF?!
close down beaches?! wear a mask while jogging on isolated running trails?!
government doesn't know all, doesn't have your best interests, doesn't know how to keep you safe, and doesn't care about taking away your liberty.
and the lockdowns haven't worked, but people preach at you like locking down HARDER will work BETTER. crazy man. it really is incredible how easily it is to influence a large swath of the population to blindly follow bullshit.

I 100% agree with you. The inconsistencies you stated drive me insane.

I still can’t wrap my head around people I saw this summer wearing masks while hiking and looking at me like I had three heads for not wearing a mask. Outside, in a 15-20 kt breeze, in the sunlight, further than 6 feet. YGBFSM.

As a longtime youth and high school coach, I HATE what we are doing to the kids up here in the northeast. Let them play. I’m thankful both my kids were able to go to school in person part time and skate/play fall ball. A lot of kids lost that opportunity.

But, the only way I can see to get out from under this utter stupidity is to make the numbers of people in the ICU and the numbers of people dying go down.

If we vaccinate the high risk, then (hopefully) if they get Covid they just get sick and get better since their body now knows how to fight it. If we get the healthcare providers, they will hopefully only get mild cases and be less contagious over time.

We get the vaccine to the rest of the folks and maybe people have to confidence fo fly, go to school, teach, etc.

The media has stoked this panic for months and has worked people up into a lather and incompetence in the government at a lot of levels have gotten us to where we are. Now people just watch the metrics. Where I live we are at like a 10% positivity. Over the summer it was like 0.8 and it took forever to open up. It’s going the wrong direction, and like you said, I do not want to see another lockdown.

[Prozac]

3 hours ago, brabus said:

Fair point. My follow up question/thought is once the high risk are vaccinated (assumption is that group is fairly open to/diligent about getting vaccinated), then will the lower risk group who remains unvaccinated really drain resources (because that’s also the same group who is hospitalized at a significantly lower rate)? 

 

Is the unvaccinated population the root cause, or is it the gov enacting policies that aren’t rational (especially in the near future as high risk populations are vaccinated), but don’t affect them personally/even benefit them in some ways? It behooves people to be skeptical when the gov says, “just do this because we said so, or else (fill in threats...)!”
 

The above is to generate thought/discussion, not an argument...since it can be difficult to tell by words alone.

To your first point: getting the high risk population vaccinated is a hurdle that we have yet to pass, as you alluded to. Assuming we get there, you may have a valid point. I’d say ask a epidemiologist. I’m not one, and so far they are saying we need 70-80% vaccination to eradicate this disease. As I am not an expert on the topic, I’m inclined to believe them. 
 

To your second point: We can all hem and haw over the effectiveness of various local policies regarding trying to stem the spread of COVID. I certainly don’t agree with everything going on in my neck of the country (especially schools remaining closed), but there are a lot of people attempting to make policy with the best information they have. I wouldn’t want their jobs & honestly don’t understand what they stand to gain by implementing restrictions other than pissing off a large portion of society. Regardless of how you or I feel about these policies, they will be here for the duration of the pandemic. It stands to reason that if you want those restrictions to go away, you should very much be pro vaccine. 

[Prozac]

2 hours ago, MyCS said:

If you receive the vaccine, you still have to wear a mask and social distance. They have said this repeatedly at the briefings I've attended.

Someone asked in a briefing how long it will last in a person's system. Nobody knew. 

Is it really too much to ask people to think things through to a logical conclusion? Of course we will have to continue to social distance and wear masks for as long as C19 continues to spread unabated. However, the sooner we reach heard immunity (vaccination will allow for this FAR faster than letting it happen naturally, and at FAR less cost), the sooner the virus stops spreading, and the sooner we can take the fucking masks off and get back to life. Simple. 

[jazzdude]

I hope masks partially stay. Got a cold/flu and need/want to go out? Wear a mask and keep your crud to yourself.

But hopefully we'll get to not having/needing everyone wear a mask out in the next several months.

[Scooter14]

I hope masks partially stay. Got a cold/flu and need/want to go out? Wear a mask and keep your crud to yourself.

But hopefully we'll get to not having/needing everyone wear a mask out in the next several months.

Yeah...I’m usually sick with some sort of crud 2-3 times a year. Haven’t been sick since all this started.

I hope this exercise also changes how people across the board treat calling in sick.

[ThreeHoler]

how long should we wear bullshit masks? 1 year? 5? 10?
 

Asian countries have been doing it since SARS.

[arg]

3 hours ago, jazzdude said:

 Got a cold/flu and need/want to go out? Wear a mask and keep your crud to yourself.

When my dad was stationed at Misawa (early 60s) I remember some Japanese people wearing masks. I remember our housegirl telling me it was because they were sick and didn't want to spread their germs.

[Prozac]

3 hours ago, MyCS said:

You need 80% of the populace to receive the vaccine for herd immunity. Not going to happen if most people decline to take the vaccine. Around 240M people would need to receive the vaccine.

Hence the reason I’m pro vaccine. If vaccination rates don’t get to where they need to be, the pain is going to last much longer than necessary. 

[SpeedOfHeat]

8 hours ago, ThreeHoler said:

Asian countries have been doing it since SARS.

For healthy people?  

That’s the key distinction.  I think we’ve forever turned a page culturally, where we’ve realized it’s smart for SICK people to wear a mask.  

What most people want to know is when can HEALTHY people, with no symptoms, no cough, no sneezing, no runny nose, etc. stop wearing a mask?

It will be a long long time.  Which business will be the first?  I wonder what the research from large companies is showing, as far as potential customers gained vs customers lost if they drop mask requirements.  Moot point for now, I suppose, since we are no where even close.

[flynutt]

55 minutes ago, SpeedOfHeat said:

For healthy people?  

That’s the key distinction.  I think we’ve forever turned a page culturally, where we’ve realized it’s smart for SICK people to wear a mask.  

What most people want to know is when can HEALTHY people, with no symptoms, no cough, no sneezing, no runny nose, etc. stop wearing a mask?

It would be great if sick folks would wear a mask.  However, it is my opinion too many people believe masks infringe on their freedoms/too inconvenient combined with a lack of concern for others that many sick will NOT wear masks.  Therefore, you need to CYA and wear your masks to avoid picking up their crud.

[SpeedOfHeat]

2 hours ago, flynutt said:

It would be great if sick folks would wear a mask.  However, it is my opinion too many people believe masks infringe on their freedoms/too inconvenient combined with a lack of concern for others that many sick will NOT wear masks.  Therefore, you need to CYA and wear your masks to avoid picking up their crud.

I think the opposite is occurring, at least right now.  Sick people are staying home.  Have you seen someone running a fever, or clearly congested, or with a persistent cough at the work place or casually shopping at Costco?  My experience has been that anyone who coughs, even once, even into their mask, gets a hairy eyeball.  I think very few legitimately sick people are out and about.

What we have is sick people at home without masks, getting their family members, or roommates (or nursing home cohabitants/caregivers) sick, and healthy people out of their homes wearing masks, essentially for no reason.  We have it all backwards.  

And to your last comment, about protecting yourself via mask, are you (correctly) wearing an N95 or better?  Because the surgical mask or the homemade cotton mask is doing nothing to protect you.

[flynutt]

Yes, sick people with noticeable symptoms are probably staying home.  But, how many asymptomatic sick people are not staying home and not wearing masks?  

Combine that with COVID guideline/policy inconsistencies, different personal interpretations of said guidelines and policies, and some people that just don't give a $h!t...that is why we find ourselves in this dumpster fire we're in.

Edited January 4, 2021 by flynutt

[slackline]

I think the opposite is occurring, at least right now.  Sick people are staying home.  Have you seen someone running a fever, or clearly congested, or with a persistent cough at the work place or casually shopping at Costco?  My experience has been that anyone who coughs, even once, even into their mask, gets a hairy eyeball.  I think very few legitimately sick people are out and about.
What we have is sick people at home without masks, getting their family members, or roommates (or nursing home cohabitants/caregivers) sick, and healthy people out of their homes wearing masks, essentially for no reason.  We have it all backwards.  
And to your last comment, about protecting yourself via mask, are you (correctly) wearing an N95 or better?  Because the surgical mask or the homemade cotton mask is doing nothing to protect you.

Your last statement is patently false. They may not be as effective as N95 masks, but they do tons more than most think. Google it yourself, but MIT (I think it was them) did a super simple study proving this. N95s are best, but if EVERYONE started wearing something, anything with 2 layers tomorrow, we’d be much better off. Again, we’re in this quagmire because people have made the idea of wearing a mask a political badge. Proud D if you wear it (or an ashamed R) or a proud R if you’re clearly smart enough to know this is all just a hoax. Sorry for the hyperbole...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, SpeedOfHeat said:

I think the opposite is occurring, at least right now.  Sick people are staying home.  Have you seen someone running a fever, or clearly congested, or with a persistent cough at the work place or casually shopping at Costco?  My experience has been that anyone who coughs, even once, even into their mask, gets a hairy eyeball.  I think very few legitimately sick people are out and about.

What we have is sick people at home without masks, getting their family members, or roommates (or nursing home cohabitants/caregivers) sick, and healthy people out of their homes wearing masks, essentially for no reason.  We have it all backwards.  

And to your last comment, about protecting yourself via mask, are you (correctly) wearing an N95 or better?  Because the surgical mask or the homemade cotton mask is doing nothing to protect you.

Would you tell your surgeon not to bother with a mask "because it doesn't do anything"?

Why do you think they would be even less effective when you don't have a giant, open wound in your body?

[BashiChuni]

15 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Would you tell your surgeon not to bother with a mask "because it doesn't do anything"?

Why do you think they would be even less effective when you don't have a giant, open wound in your body?

apples v. oranges comparison

[jazzdude]

This is the way

[SpeedOfHeat]

37 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Would you tell your surgeon not to bother with a mask "because it doesn't do anything"?

Why do you think they would be even less effective when you don't have a giant, open wound in your body?

<sigh>

Pawnman, why is the surgeon wearing the mask (Let’s say I’m getting a knee replacement)?  Because he’s afraid of getting sick from my knee?  No.

The surgeon is wearing the mask to protect me, the patient.

This aligns with the messaging throughout this thing that wearing a mask is about protecting others.

My comment above was about how useful a surgical mask is in protecting the wearer.

What the Google machine tells me (via fda.gov) is that an average surgical mask “may help block large-particle droplets, splashes, sprays, or splatter.“  

And that’s my point.  In public, especially with social distancing in effect, do you guys frequently encounter “large-particle droplets, splashes, sprays, or splatter?”

Seriously ask yourself.  Is that a thing?  

Are people coughing or sneezing on or near you?  I don’t know.  I’m just saying that’s not my experience.  Yelling, singing, or whistling are also probably good examples, but again, I personally don’t see that in a typical grocery store run.  I see a handful of healthy people with no cough or sneeze, adhering to distancing, and yet wearing masks.

Do some woodworking with a surgical mask on.  Cutting, or especially sanding.  You’ll be coughing on saw dust inside of 10 minutes.  It does not block fine particles at all.  And that’s literal pieces of wood.

I found (I think) the article that Slackline references above.  It suggest that cloth masks block “some viral particles” and “can reduce the inoculum of the virus which enters the mask,” resulting in a milder or even asymptomatic infection.  So you get sick, but not as sick.  Fair enough.  It’s a short article and there’s no data cited.  

To me, it is conditions and behavior based.  If we are now asserting that a mask can protect the wearer because it blocks “some viral particles,” it seems to me that the emphasis should be on wearing them in the places where there is a real chance of someone else’s spit hitting your face. i.e. while watching a movie on the couch with someone, not while walking down an aisle at Costco.

[Negatory]

A lot of pseudo science in here. @pawnman is right, and it's not apples and oranges. Masks do work, because the virus hasn't been demonstrated to be an aerosol that has to be filtered out at the nm level. They primarily work by blocking large droplets by sick people wearing them and, therefore, not emitting large droplets. Large droplets aren't just emitted from yelling. They're emitted from breathing. They're emitted from talking. They're emitted from existing. You ever gone outside in the cold and "seen your breath?" Those are large droplets. They are emitted ALL THE TIME. Let's establish some facts as of our current understanding:

1) "no study has demonstrated actual clinical evidence of the airborne transmission of SARS-CoV-2"

2) "the overwhelming majority of transmission of SARS-CoV-2 is via large respiratory droplets as conclusively demonstrated by contact tracing studies, cluster investigations, the lack of infection spread in hospital settings with universal masking protocols and the low estimated R"

Source: https://www.pennmedicine.org/updates/blogs/penn-physician-blog/2020/august/airborne-droplet-debate-article

3) Masks that are not N95s very effectively block the vast majority of large droplets. This study that came out shows that simple surgical masks or even single-layer cotton masks are extremely effective at stopping large droplets.

Source: https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsos.201663

[pawnman]

44 minutes ago, SpeedOfHeat said:

<sigh>

Pawnman, why is the surgeon wearing the mask (Let’s say I’m getting a knee replacement)?  Because he’s afraid of getting sick from my knee?  No.

The surgeon is wearing the mask to protect me, the patient.

This aligns with the messaging throughout this thing that wearing a mask is about protecting others.

My comment above was about how useful a surgical mask is in protecting the wearer.

What the Google machine tells me (via fda.gov) is that an average surgical mask “may help block large-particle droplets, splashes, sprays, or splatter.“  

And that’s my point.  In public, especially with social distancing in effect, do you guys frequently encounter “large-particle droplets, splashes, sprays, or splatter?”

Seriously ask yourself.  Is that a thing?  

Are people coughing or sneezing on or near you?  I don’t know.  I’m just saying that’s not my experience.  Yelling, singing, or whistling are also probably good examples, but again, I personally don’t see that in a typical grocery store run.  I see a handful of healthy people with no cough or sneeze, adhering to distancing, and yet wearing masks.

Do some woodworking with a surgical mask on.  Cutting, or especially sanding.  You’ll be coughing on saw dust inside of 10 minutes.  It does not block fine particles at all.  And that’s literal pieces of wood.

I found (I think) the article that Slackline references above.  It suggest that cloth masks block “some viral particles” and “can reduce the inoculum of the virus which enters the mask,” resulting in a milder or even asymptomatic infection.  So you get sick, but not as sick.  Fair enough.  It’s a short article and there’s no data cited.  

To me, it is conditions and behavior based.  If we are now asserting that a mask can protect the wearer because it blocks “some viral particles,” it seems to me that the emphasis should be on wearing them in the places where there is a real chance of someone else’s spit hitting your face. i.e. while watching a movie on the couch with someone, not while walking down an aisle at Costco.

That's the point.  Wear your mask to protect other people, because you can carry the virus and have no symptoms.  You don't know if you have it or not.

Just like a fire light in the cockpit... Take the precautions for an engine fire, instead of saying "well, I don't smell any smoke, must be a faulty detector"