COVID-19 (Aka China Virus)

[FLEA]

1 hour ago, slackline said:

I’ll disagree on the Europe being anything close to collectivist societies. At least anecdotally my experience in France differs immensely. Lived on the economy for 3 years, and they protest the government, violently I might add more than anyone out there. No such thing as being “largely more collective and falling into the fold once their government lays down the gravel.” Not even close. Strikes and protests are in their DNA. As I’ve talked with military and civ friends from my time over there, they’re not happy at all with the lockdowns they’ve experienced. The messaging has been different from the beginning however, that this is being done to help out each other. If you’re saying that makes them more collectivist, maybe we could do with a little more of that flavor; being willing to put up with significant discomfort for the greater good.

I realize there are large chasms between what people think is “for the greater good.”


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I'll clarify a bit: 

On the Hofstede 6D model, the top graphic is a cross section of the Anglosphere, the middle one is a cross section of Western Europe, and the bottom one is a cross section of East Asia. 

 

When I refer to Western Europe as collective, I simply mean more collective than the US. As you can see, the Anglosphere is significantly individual. Western Europe is also pretty individual but not nearly as much as the Anglosphere. And the Far East is is the most collective societies. 

 

The Far East societies have done that best job at mitigating the spread of COVID. Of those 4 societies, Japan is routinely criticized the most as having done the worst job. Japan has still done a significantly better job than Europe or the US though. As you can see, Japan has the highest individualism score of the 4 sampled. 

 

The US and the UK are continually criticized for having poor COVID responses. The outliers here are Canada and Australia, but may be explained by population sparsity and low commercial traffic. 

 

West Europe falls squarely in between the Anglosphere and East Asia for Individualism/Collectivism, and by and large people perceive them as having a better response than the Anglosphere, but a worse response than East Asia. 

 

So this was not a very rigorous analysis. Merely an observation I made. I live in Europe now, and I will agree that there is some bucking to mask, lockdowns and social distancing. But by an large people fall in order and do it at some point. Those that protest are chastised to the point of societal excommunication. 

Edited January 6, 2021 by FLEA

[Homestar]

Hasn't it been determined that the COVID-19 spreads through respiration, not through food?

Hey, you do you.  I'm sure nobody missed you at their farewell.

[jazzdude]

Hasn't it been determined that the COVID-19 spreads through respiration, not through food?
Hey, you do you.  I'm sure nobody missed you at their farewell.

Primarily yes, but being in a room with several people eating means they aren't wearing masks, increasing transmission risks. Though it's not the primary transmission route, CDC recommends washing your hands and not touching your face to lower the transmission risk.

My going away last summer skipped the food, as did many of my peers' going aways and retirements. Unfortunate to lose the last lunch push with my squadron.

But Covid sucks, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

[Scooter14]

Are your units still having going away meals/pot lucks?


When I'm forced to gather in the conference room.


Then watch people scoop food from containers like a Thanksgiving COVID super spread event. I leave immediately after the presentation. I just don't know where people hands have been. 
Hell, the wing king can't even wear his damn mask right. 

I’m sorry you got non-volled to a pot luck. Next time just have someone else scan your ID and sign the 1522.

[Homestar]

We had our first "food event" in a looooong time last week in the squadron. Food was served (not a get-it-yourself style) and we took our plates back to our flight rooms.

Here's to hoping the world gets back to normal soon.

Edited January 10, 2021 by Homestar

[SurelySerious]

 

Biden's Plan To Release More Vaccine Is A Gamble. Is It Worth The Risk?

NPR Summary: Pfizer/Moderna two-dose vaccine to be spread out as one-dose amongst wider population. 

Seems like if the scientists at Pfizer/Moderna say vaccination takes two doses... maybe we ought to just go ahead and do that instead of shotgunning one dose amongst more people.

[ThreeHoler]

You’re a ing troll. But because your stupid shit might rub off...surface transmission is nearly zero. People are using all that cleaning stuff because they haven’t actually read anything about this virus.


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[slc]

6 hours ago, ThreeHoler said:

You’re a ing troll. But because your stupid shit might rub off...surface transmission is nearly zero. People are using all that cleaning stuff because they haven’t actually read anything about this virus.


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Serious question - is surface transmission nearly 0? I was unaware.  All this cleaning/disinfecting etc...  just curious

[jazzdude]

Serious question - is surface transmission nearly 0? I was unaware.  All this cleaning/disinfecting etc...  just curious

From CDC:

Droplets can also land on surfaces and objects and be transferred by touch. A person may get COVID-19 by touching the surface or object that has the virus on it and then touching their own mouth, nose, or eyes. Spread from touching surfaces is not thought to be the main way the virus spreads. [/Quote]

Clean and disinfect frequently touched surfaces such as tables, doorknobs, light switches, countertops, handles, desks, phones, keyboards, toilets, faucets, and sinks. If surfaces are dirty, clean them using detergent or soap and water prior to disinfection. To disinfect, most common EPA-registered household disinfectants will work.
[/Quote]
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/faq.html

However, NIH research says that surface transmission is unlikely (at least in a hospital setting with standard cleaning protocols)
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30678-2/fulltext

Another NIH article:
The coronavirus can survive on surfaces, but transmission rates couldn't be determined since all the experiments had people washing their hands.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7706414/

Food transmission on prepared food should be low, so long as food workers are doing their job the way they are supposed to (washing hands, use of gloves, not coughing it sneezing on the food, not coming into work sick).

All this to say, not likely, but possible. But all the experiments looking at surface transmissions had participants wash their hands, so it's unknown how much of the virus that survived on a surface transferred to the hands of participants, much less would make it into their body through touching their face. But it's logical to believe that the transfer could happen from a medical viewpoint. Cleaning has a potentially good effect at reducing one method of transmission, and there's a logical reason to believe surface transmission is possible, and it doesn't hurt to do it, and likely helps reduce some risk.

What's hard in all this is that medicine isn't always scientific; sometimes it's conjecture and thought through assumptions, because to apply the scientific method may be unethical, or would violate the "do no harm" ideal. And that viewpoint is from my brother's realization as he went through medical school pre-pandemic. We've learned a lot about how our bodies work, but there's a lot we still don't understand.

At the other end, you have the Tuskegee experiments on an unsuspecting, disadvantaged group, with doctors/researchers learning a lot quickly, but causing pain and suffering to that group (with lingering effects still lasting to today on trust in government and healthcare).

[SurelySerious]

Vintage 2004 John Kerry material from Cuomo. 

[brabus]

18 hours ago, MyCS said:

You sound like you're going to cry about being dead wrong. 😭😂🤣. Yelling out troll doesn't make the things you say true.

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200903/coronavirus-on-surfaces-whats-the-real-risk
 

He’s not “dead wrong;” sure it is possible as jazz pointed out, but it’s not the primary way it spreads/infects...the CDC and the medical community support that. The above article explains in layman terms why it’s very low odds.

[jazzdude]

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200903/coronavirus-on-surfaces-whats-the-real-risk
 
He’s not “dead wrong;” sure it is possible as jazz pointed out, but it’s not the primary way it spreads/infects...the CDC and the medical community support that. The above article explains in layman terms why it’s very low odds.

And just to add, one of the doctors in the article said that studies have proven that coronavirus can survive on surfaces, but haven't proven transmission. That's technically true, because the studies weren't looking to prove that. So surface transmission hasn't been "disproven" per se, just not studied (reference my earlier NIH link). Still unlikely for reasons that doctor listed though.

If you've got to fund research for a pandemic, it'll likely be along the lines of the major transmission routes (droplet, aerosol?) rather than a possible but unlikely transmission route, especially when time/money is limited. Especially when routine cleaning, washing your hands, and not touching your face (which should all be "normal", but maybe not for everyone in practice) should in theory greatly reduce or eliminate surface transmission.

[nsplayr]

Hey y’all, just reporting back that I got my first dose of the vaccine and I’m happy to say I’ve got full bars of 5G already and I streamed the game last night directly into my eyeballs. It was fantastic! Roll Tide.

J/K obviously, but everyone please go out and get the vaccine as soon as you can so we can end this terrible pandemic. Science FTW.

Edited January 12, 2021 by nsplayr

[slackline]

On 1/6/2021 at 8:14 AM, VMFA187 said:

I have a sneaking suspicion "variant" is a way to keep the public mortified by the virus. 

Sorry this is a few days late, but I just don't understand this mentality, or the seemingly small minded support of it.  Seriously, people upvote this crap?

Pure speculation with absolutely nothing to add to the factual conversation, but definitely leads people unwilling to do research themselves to go on believing this whole pandemic is just made up nonsense by the "man" to keep us down.  Or that it isn't bad enough to take seriously.  Yep, the powers that be are just continuing this garbage to ruin the economy, exert undue authority over us, limiting our rights and strike fear into our lives...  Get real!  

This could definitely be handled better, but half of the problem is this stupid mentality backed up by nothing close to resembling science.

[VMFA187]

1 minute ago, slackline said:

Sorry this is a few days late, but I just don't understand this mentality, or the seemingly small minded support of it.  Seriously, people upvote this crap?

Pure speculation with absolutely nothing to add to the factual conversation, but definitely leads people unwilling to do research themselves to go on believing this whole pandemic is just made up nonsense by the "man" to keep us down.  Or that it isn't bad enough to take seriously.  Yep, the powers that be are just continuing this garbage to ruin the economy, exert undue authority over us, limiting our rights and strike fear into our lives...  Get real!  

This could definitely be handled better, but half of the problem is this stupid mentality backed up by nothing close to resembling science.

Here is what I know.

Two of my closest friends had the virus in June after I spent the weekend at their house. She got tested on Tuesday after feeling a bit under the weather on Monday. Her results came back positive Thursday. He had a sore throat and lost his sense of taste from Tuesday - Friday. I had a sore throat on Wednesday and Thursday (went for outdoor runs both mornings) with slight difficulty sleeping. I never got tested. 

This experience mirrors almost every single person I've personally spoken to who has had the virus - A minor annoyance. I know absolutely zero people who have died from the virus and absolutely zero who have been hospitalized. 

Forgive me if I trust my experiences over the MSM who get paid by viewership knowing that fear sells. 

Feel free to believe whateverthefukc you want. I don't care. In the nearly year this has been happening I don't know a single person who has been hospitalized for it. 

 

[Homestar]

I personally know two older people who contracted COVID and died as a result.  But they were old people and their lives don't matter as much so I don't really care. /s

I'm of the opinion that the virus is real, is causing real economic damage because real people are getting sick and dying. I also believe that we cannot, and should not, shutter our economy because of this virus that the vast majority recover from.

But it's kinda ridiculous to discount the true damage the virus has caused simply because you personally don't know anyone who has died from it.

 

[slackline]

4 minutes ago, VMFA187 said:

Here is what I know.

Two of my closest friends had the virus in June after I spent the weekend at their house. She got tested on Tuesday after feeling a bit under the weather on Monday. Her results came back positive Thursday. He had a sore throat and lost his sense of taste from Tuesday - Friday. I had a sore throat on Wednesday and Thursday (went for outdoor runs both mornings) with slight difficulty sleeping. I never got tested. 

This experience mirrors almost every single person I've personally spoken to who has had the virus - A minor annoyance. I know absolutely zero people who have died from the virus and absolutely zero who have been hospitalized. 

Forgive me if I trust my experiences over the MSM who get paid by viewership knowing that fear sells. 

Feel free to believe whateverthefukc you want. I don't care. In the nearly year this has been happening I don't know a single person who has been hospitalized for it. 

 

Clearly, you're the sample size we should base all info on... Science!

[VMFA187]

1 minute ago, Homestar said:

I personally know two older people who contracted COVID and died as a result.  But they were old people and their lives don't matter as much so I don't really care. /s

I'm of the opinion that the virus is real, is causing real economic damage because real people are getting sick and dying. I also believe that we cannot, and should not, shutter our economy because of this virus that the vast majority recover from.

But it's kinda ridiculous to discount the true damage the virus has caused simply because you personally don't know anyone who has died from it.

 

Yes, people generally value the lives of the young more than the old, all things being equal because more life is lost when a young person dies. 

There are two separate types of induced damage - Death and economic. The vast majority of economic damage has been government induced. What is wrong with those who are at-risk or fearful of the virus from self-isolating? 

 

[slackline]

2 minutes ago, VMFA187 said:

Yes, people generally value the lives of the young more than the old, all things being equal because more life is lost when a young person dies. 

There are two separate types of induced damage - Death and economic. The vast majority of economic damage has been government induced. What is wrong with those who are at-risk or fearful of the virus from self-isolating? 

 

That's a very legitimate point, one I agree with.  But your attitude towards the virus side of it makes it hard to truly get after the poor govt response because the conspiracy theory whackjobs can't get past the "this is fake" part to have a real discussion.  Govt is screwing this up by the numbers. Trump made it worse by a factor of who knows how stinkin much, so now all his Trumpkins will.never admit it, and prolong this much more than it would have been a problem. If reasonable people start acting like it's real, take it seriously, the tools will fall in line, and we can do more common sense things to fix the economy.

[VMFA187]

1 minute ago, MyCS said:

My cousin died from COVID. She was a phlebotomist. They draw blood from people.

 

An O-5 I know was hospitalized after contracting COVID..

I'm sorry to hear that. 

[BashiChuni]

Open up the economy. 
 

if you’re opposed to this you probably have been getting a steady paycheck every two weeks. 
 

check your privilege 

[VMFA187]

Just now, slackline said:

That's a very legitimate point, one I agree with.  But your attitude towards the virus side of it makes it hard to truly get after the poor govt response because the conspiracy theory whackjobs can't get past the "this is fake" part to have a real discussion.  Govt is screwing this up by the numbers. Trump made it worse by a factor of who knows how stinkin much, so now all his Trumpkins will.never admit it, and prolong this much more than it would have been a problem. If reasonable people start acting like it's real, take it seriously, the tools will fall in line, and we can do more common sense things to fix the economy.

I never said its not "real." It is a minor nuisance to the vast majority of people and a real threat to a very small population, who are unfortunately already prone to dying. But state and local governments, mainly those led by democratic leaders, for whatever reason, are causing it to be much more than a nuisance to the entire population with pretty much only negative results. 

[Negatory]

31 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

Open up the economy. 
 

if you’re opposed to this you probably have been getting a steady paycheck every two weeks. 
 

check your privilege 

I can’t disagree with this based on our current government’s ineptitude. They are damning poor people and small businesses. Even landlords.

A more middle grounded solution would have been to provide funds to high risk folks to actually quarantine while allowing everyone that’s not high risk to take whatever precautions they want. Would still result in over hospitalization, so target that problem.

To put it in perspective, we could have given the 100M “high risk” Americans 20k this year (enough for food and shelter, don’t come outside) and still had $1T for medical system fortifications (this is an actually insane amount of money) for the same cost as the $3.1T in stimulus bills we’ve wasted. It’s insane.

I’m not saying that’s the right answer, but it sure as hell would have done more for America than whatever the hell we did. And it would have actually involved personal responsibility and liberty, at least to an extent.

[pawnman]

And now that the election is over...

Coumo wants to reopen New York.

[nsplayr]

1 hour ago, VMFA187 said:

I never said its not "real." It is a minor nuisance to the vast majority of people and a real threat to a very small population, who are unfortunately already prone to dying. But state and local governments, mainly those led by democratic leaders, for whatever reason, are causing it to be much more than a nuisance to the entire population with pretty much only negative results. 

Ya know I wrote this whole angry reply but I deleted it. Here's what I think:

A) I'm glad COVID hasn't affected your family much; count yourself as lucky.

B) If you want to end the pandemic-mitigation measures, I hope you're getting vaccinated ASAP and encouraging everyone you know to do the same. I sure am!

C) I would tread a bit more lightly re: "Well I don't know anyone who died..." because many, many of us do and it's kind of a dick move to base your entire world view on the extremely narrow lense of your own personal experiences.