COVID-19 (Aka China Virus)

[pawnman]

13 minutes ago, Guardian said:

Please educate us. I would like to know more.

You know how your immune system reacts to a virus, but there's a spool up time? Your body also reacts to vaccines, in a more mild fashion, in a way that reduces the spool up time.

Think of it this way. In Afghanistan, someone shoots at guys on the ground, and it takes time to PID, get coords, program a weapon, etc.  But it you know where Bin Laden is hiding, with a picture of the guy, already know what's in the building...you can react  much more quickly.

Vaccines are like an Intel shop for your immune system, priming it to react to threats before they enter the body.

[MCO]

1 hour ago, brabus said:

I have a 0.014% chance of death IF I contract Covid...no logical risk management process says, “99.986% of success isn’t good enough, we need to lower the risk more!” When it comes to personal risk assessment, you do you, no judgement here. But it is quite logical to look at the numbers and say, “yeah I’m good with that chance of death and won’t be pumping more synthetic shit into my body.” I don’t have to sacrifice my body for the people who have their own personal health issues...judging those who make such a risk assessment based on the data out there is pretty illogical and misguided.

Also definitely go listen to a pod cast or two with Dr. Weinstein as said earlier...holy shit.

Sounds like a good anti-vaxxer argument.

[FlyingWolf]

23 hours ago, ThreeHoler said:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1365/2497/products/12774-TinFoilHat-May-Move02_800x.gif?v=1542393503


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[pawnman]

2 hours ago, brabus said:

I have a 0.014% chance of death IF I contract Covid...no logical risk management process says, “99.986% of success isn’t good enough, we need to lower the risk more!” When it comes to personal risk assessment, you do you, no judgement here. But it is quite logical to look at the numbers and say, “yeah I’m good with that chance of death and won’t be pumping more synthetic shit into my body.” I don’t have to sacrifice my body for the people who have their own personal health issues...judging those who make such a risk assessment based on the data out there is pretty illogical and misguided.

Also definitely go listen to a pod cast or two with Dr. Weinstein as said earlier...holy shit.

That's your risk. But you also put others at risk if you pass on the infection. 

Like saying "my odds of dying in a car accident are less than one percent, so I can do 70 in a 35 and I'll probably be fine".   You aren't the only person affected by your actions. 

Hard to imagine we've gone from a nation that stormed Normandy to one that won't get a shot. 

[MechGov]

I have a 0.014% chance of death IF I contract Covid...no logical risk management process says, “99.986% of success isn’t good enough, we need to lower the risk more!”

Covid has killed 619K Americans. Assuming the population of the country was 350M, that’s 0.177% of the entire US population. Out of the 34.5M recorded US cases, that’s 1.8% mortality rate (likely lower due to unreported cases).

There were 5479 reported deaths (to any cause, not necessarily related to vaccine) following a COVID vaccine out of 318M doses (0.0017%). CDC and FDA are required to look into each report. Of those 5K, so far only 3 are linked to the vaccine (1:100M). The CDC reports your chances of having a severe reaction is about 1:200k, or less.

I don’t think anyone is trying to say that these vaccines are absolutely perfect, but compare it to any other vaccine our society has commonly accepted as safe—take typhoid for example—and the efficacy of Covid-19 vaccines are pretty damn good. If we’re going to throw around numbers, let’s at least use actual data.

[HeloDude]

22 minutes ago, pawnman said:

That's your risk. But you also put others at risk if you pass on the infection. 

Like saying "my odds of dying in a car accident are less than one percent, so I can do 70 in a 35 and I'll probably be fine".   You aren't the only person affected by your actions. 

Hard to imagine we've gone from a nation that stormed Normandy to one that won't get a shot. 

So why aren’t others getting the vaccine if they believe they’ll be at risk for serious harm if they contract the virus?

I love the “risk” argument…it’s always an argument that suits the person who want to have A or ban B.  The difference between progressives/statists and libertarians is that libertarians believe the choice should be up to you, where as progressives and statists believe you should whatever they want.  Don’t believe me?…progressives (even those on this page), want to ban AR-15s, even though statically you’re more at risk of dying after getting a covid vaccine than being killed by someone with an AR-15.

And when was the last time  government agencies set up monetary incentives to the general public to get an experimental vaccine?

I don’t expect we’re going to see eye to eye on this…especially since you support commanders giving punishment under Art 15 for those who don’t wear a mask and haven’t had the shot (I hope to never have to work with you btw).  Though in a trial, I would put my bet on someone in this situation being acquitted.  Why?—glad you asked.  During the whole mast mandate, especially in the end, I saw commanders being very selective of requiring guys to wear a mask.  Walking around the halls, have one on.  A get together in the squadron bar for a going away, don’t need to wear one.

 

[pawnman]

49 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

So why aren’t others getting the vaccine if they believe they’ll be at risk for serious harm if they contract the virus?

I love the “risk” argument…it’s always an argument that suits the person who want to have A or ban B.  The difference between progressives/statists and libertarians is that libertarians believe the choice should be up to you, where as progressives and statists believe you should whatever they want.  Don’t believe me?…progressives (even those on this page), want to ban AR-15s, even though statically you’re more at risk of dying after getting a covid vaccine than being killed by someone with an AR-15.

And when was the last time  government agencies set up monetary incentives to the general public to get an experimental vaccine?

I don’t expect we’re going to see eye to eye on this…especially since you support commanders giving punishment under Art 15 for those who don’t wear a mask and haven’t had the shot (I hope to never have to work with you btw).  Though in a trial, I would put my bet on someone in this situation being acquitted.  Why?—glad you asked.  During the whole mast mandate, especially in the end, I saw commanders being very selective of requiring guys to wear a mask.  Walking around the halls, have one on.  A get together in the squadron bar for a going away, don’t need to wear one.

 

Others are getting the vaccine.  151 million Americans are fully vaccinated, with another 20 million having had at least one dose.

But that still leaves ~180 million unvaccinated people for the virus to jump to.  Vaccines aren't 100% effective, but if enough people have 90% immunity, the virus dies out.  Wild to me that we are relearning the same fucking lesson we learned with polio and measles, but here we are.

As for the mask mandate - if you blatantly lie to my face about following a direct order you've been given, and then think I'm the bad guy for enforcing the order...then I don't want you in my Air Force, period.  What else will you lie about?  Violating a TO?  Breaking FAA regulation?  Covering up for illegal activity on the side?  If you can't do something as fucking simple and painless as wear a mask in accordance with what the highest leaders in the service have mandated, I can't trust you to do anything that takes more effort or sacrifice.

[HeloDude]

16 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Others are getting the vaccine.  151 million Americans are fully vaccinated, with another 20 million having had at least one dose.

But that still leaves ~180 million unvaccinated people for the virus to jump to.  Vaccines aren't 100% effective, but if enough people have 90% immunity, the virus dies out.  Wild to me that we are relearning the same fucking lesson we learned with polio and measles, but here we are.

As for the mask mandate - if you blatantly lie to my face about following a direct order you've been given, and then think I'm the bad guy for enforcing the order...then I don't want you in my Air Force, period.  What else will you lie about?  Violating a TO?  Breaking FAA regulation?  Covering up for illegal activity on the side?  If you can't do something as fucking simple and painless as wear a mask in accordance with what the highest leaders in the service have mandated, I can't trust you to do anything that takes more effort or sacrifice.

As I said, I hope to never have to serve with you.  By the way, when are commanders getting relieved of duty for selective enforcement of the policy?—exactly.  

Oh and don’t forget, you said if you were a commander that you would hunt down those who weren’t wearing a mask and didn’t have the vaccine (ie nothing about the member lying)…and somehow this now applies to “lying to my face”.  What a joke…
 

 

Edited June 26, 2021 by HeloDude

[Guardian]

You know how your immune system reacts to a virus, but there's a spool up time? Your body also reacts to vaccines, in a more mild fashion, in a way that reduces the spool up time.
Think of it this way. In Afghanistan, someone shoots at guys on the ground, and it takes time to PID, get coords, program a weapon, etc.  But it you know where Bin Laden is hiding, with a picture of the guy, already know what's in the building...you can react  much more quickly.
Vaccines are like an Intel shop for your immune system, priming it to react to threats before they enter the body.

I understand your example. However my point was I would rather get the virus naturally and have my body build up immunities to it. Instead of getting the virus and having the virus cause lots of problems with my immune system and it now requires a booster to maintain the small protection it does give me for only the covid virus while hurting me for other viruses.

People with the vaccine can still get the virus and carry it. So the natural immunities by what I have seen are far superior to the haphazard vaccine that isn’t even really a vaccine and is just a stop gap which actually hampers your natural ability to fight against the virus and other things.

If I’m wrong then please don’t use Afghanistan analogies. Please use medical facts and reason. Thanks.

[tac airlifter]

51 minutes ago, pawnman said:

 

As for the mask mandate - if you blatantly lie to my face about following a direct order you've been given, and then think I'm the bad guy for enforcing the order...then I don't want you in my Air Force, period.  What else will you lie about?  Violating a TO?  Breaking FAA regulation?  Covering up for illegal activity on the side?  If you can't do something as fucking simple and painless as wear a mask in accordance with what the highest leaders in the service have mandated, I can't trust you to do anything that takes more effort or sacrifice.

Replace “mask” with “reflective belt” and you just became what’s wrong with the Air Force.  By the way, neither do anything to keep us safe.

[brabus]

4 hours ago, pawnman said:

But you also put others at risk if you pass on the infection

Do I really? I mean if the vaccine works, then what are the vaccinated afraid of? I won’t affect them…unless they actually don’t believe the vaccine works. And kids under 12 is a non-starter argument…they’re sitting at a 0.00025% chance of death (if they get it). 
 

3 hours ago, MechGov said:

If we’re going to throw around numbers, let’s at least use actual data.

Those were actual numbers, from the CDC. Swing and a miss on that accusation.

But to the rest of your general point, I’m not arguing there is statistically relevant data saying the vaccine is deadly, but rather saying the data completely supports not getting it as a rational decision. Individual risk assessment is certainly subjective, so for some, these numbers don’t trip the decision to skip vaccination, and that’s totally fine. You do you. But also, go fuck yourself if you’re going to try and force your decision onto others. 

4 hours ago, MCO said:

Sounds like a good anti-vaxxer argument.

Actually it’s an unemotional point referencing CDC data, made by a guy with a 5 page long vax record. You do you, but you look like a dip shit when you launch ad hominem attacks on someone because they have a perspective differing from yours. 

[pawnman]

If your seatbelt and airbag work, why do you care if other drivers disregard traffic laws?

Again...not 100% effective, and the bigger the reservoir, the more chance for mutation. Like the Delta varient sweeping through India.

Not to mention, there's always some portion of the population that can't get a vaccine. Immune compromised, too young, allergic to an ingredient, etc.

Edited June 26, 2021 by pawnman

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, Guardian said:

I understand your example. However my point was I would rather get the virus naturally and have my body build up immunities to it. Instead of getting the virus and having the virus cause lots of problems with my immune system and it now requires a booster to maintain the small protection it does give me for only the covid virus while hurting me for other viruses.

People with the vaccine can still get the virus and carry it. So the natural immunities by what I have seen are far superior to the haphazard vaccine that isn’t even really a vaccine and is just a stop gap which actually hampers your natural ability to fight against the virus and other things.

If I’m wrong then please don’t use Afghanistan analogies. Please use medical facts and reason. Thanks.

It's not 100%, so sure, you MAY get it. But you reduce the odds by 90%+.

What makes you think the vaccine makes you less able to respond to other diseases? 

[Guardian]

https://www.foxnews.com/health/mild-coronavirus-infection-lasting-antibody-protection-research

Your airbag analogy is apples and oranges.

[Prozac]

38 minutes ago, brabus said:

Do I really? I mean if the vaccine works, then what are the vaccinated afraid of? I won’t affect them…unless they actually don’t believe the vaccine works. And kids under 12 is a non-starter argument…they’re sitting at a 0.00025% chance of death (if they get it). 
 

Those were actual numbers, from the CDC. Swing and a miss on that accusation.

But to the rest of your general point, I’m not arguing there is statistically relevant data saying the vaccine is deadly, but rather saying the data completely supports not getting it as a rational decision. Individual risk assessment is certainly subjective, so for some, these numbers don’t trip the decision to skip vaccination, and that’s totally fine. You do you. But also, go fuck yourself if you’re going to try and force your decision onto others. 

Actually it’s an unemotional point referencing CDC data, made by a guy with a 5 page long vax record. You do you, but you look like a dip shit when you launch ad hominem attacks on someone because they have a perspective differing from yours. 

Most vaccinated people are not afraid of you spreading the virus to them. They’re afraid of you spreading it to the other anti-vaxers and prolonging the negative effects of this virus to our society. Thousands more sick and dying is tragic and detrimental to our way of life. Know the shortest way to not having to wear masks on airplanes anymore? It’s called heard immunity and we could get there in a month if you guys would come around to reason. I keep hearing about individual risk assessment. You should also factor in societal risk assessment when making your decision. It’s about more than just you. 

[tac airlifter]

10 minutes ago, Prozac said:

Most vaccinated people are not afraid of you spreading the virus to them. They’re afraid of you spreading it to the other anti-vaxers and prolonging the negative effects of this virus to our society. Thousands more sick and dying is tragic and detrimental to our way of life. Know the shortest way to not having to wear masks on airplanes anymore? It’s called heard immunity and we could get there in a month if you guys would come around to reason. I keep hearing about individual risk assessment. You should also factor in societal risk assessment when making your decision. It’s about more than just you. 

Aside from the Red herring of the phrase “anti-vaxer” to slander vaccinated individuals opposed to mass forced vaccination, you’re also ignoring how much we've been lied to.  

Why should I trust you on herd immunity when we have Fauci’s emails proving he manipulates “herd immunity” and the definition is subjective?

”we could get to herd immunity in a month if you were reasonable.”

”2 weeks of lockdowns to slow the spread.”

”the vaccine originated naturally not in a lab.”

”there are no safe treatments, that is why our only option is using this experimental vaccine”

”the NIH didn’t fund gain of function research in Chinese military labs.”

Those statements are used to shout down questions and dissent.  Some have now been proven false.  Do you not understand why that calls the others into question?  “Appeal to authority” is insufficient to convince people when the authorities lie so much.

 

[Prozac]

Perhaps Anthony Faucci is part of the grand conspiracy that will have us all speaking mandarin within the next five years. Or perhaps he’s just a dude trying to do the best he can with limited and constantly changing information. Your argument sounds like the one my ten year old makes when I promised him a chocolate shake at Red Robin and all they have left is vanilla. Regardless, the vaccine works, it is safe, and it already has been highly effective in allowing us to claim much of our lives back. Just look at the countries with very low vaccination rates for proof. Sydney just went back on a full on draconian lockdown today. Australia’s vaccination rate is ~5%. 

[HeloDude]

5 minutes ago, Prozac said:

Perhaps Anthony Faucci is part of the grand conspiracy that will have us all speaking mandarin within the next five years. Or perhaps he’s just a dude trying to do the best he can with limited and constantly changing information. Your argument sounds like the one my ten year old makes when I promised him a chocolate shake at Red Robin and all they have left is vanilla. Regardless, the vaccine works, it is safe, and it already has been highly effective in allowing us to claim much of our lives back. Just look at the countries with very low vaccination rates for proof. Sydney just went back on a full on draconian lockdown today. Australia’s vaccination rate is ~5%. 

If it’s so safe and effective, then why hasn’t the military made it mandatory?  Also (again), if it’s so safe and effective, then why hasn’t it been approved by the FDA under normal ops?

[pawnman]

6 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

If it’s so safe and effective, then why hasn’t the military made it mandatory?  Also (again), if it’s so safe and effective, then why hasn’t it been approved by the FDA under normal ops?

Planning to opt out when the military does make it mandatory? 

[tac airlifter]

8 minutes ago, Prozac said:

Perhaps Anthony Faucci is part of the grand conspiracy that will have us all speaking mandarin within the next five years. Or perhaps he’s just a dude trying to do the best he can with limited and constantly changing information. Your argument sounds like the one my ten year old makes when I promised him a chocolate shake at Red Robin and all they have left is vanilla. Regardless, the vaccine works, it is safe, and it already has been highly effective in allowing us to claim much of our lives back. Just look at the countries with very low vaccination rates for proof. Sydney just went back on a full on draconian lockdown today. Australia’s vaccination rate is ~5%. 

Are those your only two choices available for understanding Fauci?  I can imagine a more nuanced gradation of possibilities; that you cannot is informative towards your understanding of differing viewpoints.

The analogy of your child is merely another appeal to authority without addressing the underlying issue or question.  You’re using the same trick over and over: mischaracterize the other viewpoint, then mock the mischaracterization.  It plays well with folks who already agree with you; how convincing is that logic for those still deciding what to think about these events?  

[HeloDude]

7 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Planning to opt out when the military does make it mandatory? 

Thank you for answering my questions with another question.  Makes it obvious that you can’t or don’t want to answer them.

But coming from a guy who would give anyone an Article 15 for speeding, not wearing a reflective belt, etc…I’m not surprised.

You do know that you can see the foolishness of your ways and admit that you were wrong, right?  Or are you sticking to your original post below?

[pawnman]

2 hours ago, HeloDude said:

Thank you for answering my questions with another question.  Makes it obvious that you can’t or don’t want to answer them.

But coming from a guy who would give anyone an Article 15 for speeding, not wearing a reflective belt, etc…I’m not surprised.

You do know that you can see the foolishness of your ways and admit that you were wrong, right?  Or are you sticking to your original post below?

What a fucking troll.

[Guardian]

Pawnman can cuss in the chat rooms? No way?!?!?

[HeloDude]

51 minutes ago, pawnman said:

What a fucking troll.

Right back at you brother!  Careful…someone might not be wearing a mask!

[BroncoEN]

So much emotion with this from everyone.  My family got the vaccine because my wife works with immunocompromised children that can’t get it…. not because we are concerned about ourselves. Every M.D. we know got it the minute they could (even pregnant or nursing)… so we trusted their decisions and followed, because as it turns out, I’m a pilot and not a medical professional.