COVID-19 (Aka China Virus)

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Ah...so, when the FDA approves it, you still won't take it? 

Anywhere else you have an utter mistrust of government? Do you disregard FAA regulations because you don't trust the federal government to oversee aviation? Do you "do your own research" on all the food items you buy, or do your trust the FDAs food inspection process?  

 

[pawnman]

18 minutes ago, dogfish78 said:

 

Sounds exhausting. Never being able to go to a grocery store, building your own car because you don't trust government safety standards, making your own fuel because you don't trust the EPA...

[FLEA]

21 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Sounds exhausting. Never being able to go to a grocery store, building your own car because you don't trust government safety standards, making your own fuel because you don't trust the EPA...

Just curious Pawnman, have you ever been on staff? If you were did you think you were qualified for the jobs you were asked to do and that your coworkers were competent at theirs? Being on staff was one thing that made me realize I need to maintain healthy skepticism on anything that comes from the government. 

Edited August 8, 2021 by FLEA

[pawnman]

14 hours ago, FLEA said:

Just curious Pawnman, have you ever been on staff? If you were did you think you were qualified for the jobs you were asked to do and that your coworkers were competent at theirs? Being on staff was one thing that made me realize I need to maintain healthy skepticism on anything that comes from the government. 

Never been on staff.

Did it make you so skeptical you absolutely refuse to follow any MAJCOM guidance?

I should have just stayed out of this thread.  I'll just comfort myself knowing all of you still in are gonna be forced to get a vaccine, and it looks like a lot of airlines are trending that way as well.

Can't wait to see how many people are willing to sacrifice their principles for their wallets.

Edited August 9, 2021 by pawnman

[busdriver]

21 minutes ago, pawnman said:

I'll just comfort myself knowing all of you still in are gonna be forced to get a vaccine

Lighten up Francis.  And stop engaging dogfish like he's a rational person.  He eats paste.

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Never been on staff.

Did it make you so skeptical you absolutely refuse to follow any MAJCOM guidance?

I should have just stayed out of this thread.  I'll just.comfort myself knowing all of you still in are gonna be 2nd class citizens, and it looks like a lot of airlines are trending that way as well.

Can't wait to see how many people are willing to sacrifice their body autonomy for their sanity.

Replaced your false words with the truth of what you seek to hide. You have been, are not, and will never be a patriot. God, and our forefathers look upon you with disgust for not only your complacency in, but your sadistic support of evil. May God have mercy upon your soul. Not that you believe in Him anyway. No matter, you’ll get what’s soon coming. Whether it’s from Him, or hundreds of millions of patriotic citizens acting in a just and lawful manner.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, busdriver said:

Lighten up Francis.  And stop engaging dogfish like he's a rational person.  He eats paste.

Cope. At least it’s not spunk.

[pawnman]

4 minutes ago, busdriver said:

Lighten up Francis.  And stop engaging dogfish like he's a rational person.  He eats paste.

Fair enough.

There's no way to take someone who thinks Alex Jones is a credible journalist seriously.

Then the cringe 4Chan memes...

[arg]

Sounds exhausting. Never being able to go to a grocery store, building your own car because you don't trust government safety standards, making your own fuel because you don't trust the EPA...

Funny


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

[Guest]

3 hours ago, pawnman said:

Fair enough.

There's no way to take someone who thinks Alex Jones is a credible journalist seriously.

Then the cringe 4Chan memes...

What? Who is this 4chan?

What’s the logical conclusion of a digital ID passport system being pushed by a government that censors information?

[Kiloalpha]

@pawnman, I could just as easily flip this around on you. If you're a rational human being, then you surely believe there are regulations/standards/laws/edicts on the books are either worthless or not 100% applicable. If so, then you too must be an anarchist like @dogfish78, right? The appeal to extremes fallacy doesn't work well for anyone, if you're actually insinuating the opponent believes all extremes.

Now, if you're using that appeal to test where @dogfish78's limits on government sovereignty lie, fair play.

Regardless, there are people against the COVID shot who are otherwise pro-government involvement, and there are people for the vaccine who are otherwise anarcho-libertarian. This isn't a left-right or right-wrong thing. Each individual is doing a cost-benefit analysis for themselves, because that's the rational thing to do. Is each side taking in wrong info to bolster their sides? You bet they are, because where one stands on COVID-19, like everything else anymore... it’s a demonstration of fealty to one's tribe/religion/party. Group-think is a real thing, believe it or not.

@dogfish78, don't take this post as a blanket defense of you either. Lay off the "you're not a patriot, and may God have mercy on your soul" stuff. It's no way to engage in a conversation.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Kiloalpha

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Kiloalpha said:

@pawnman, I could just as easily flip this around on you. If you're a rational human being, then you surely believe there are regulations/standards/laws/edicts on the books that you believe are either worthless or not 100% applicable. If so, then you too must be an anarchist like @dogfish78, right? The appeal to extremes fallacy doesn't work well for anyone, if you're actually insinuating the opponent believes all extremes.

Now, if you're using that appeal to test where @dogfish78's limits on government sovereignty lie, fair play.

Regardless, there are people against the COVID shot who are otherwise pro-government involvement, and there are people for the vaccine who are otherwise anarcho-libertarian. This isn't a left-right or right-wrong thing. Each individual is doing a cost-benefit analysis for themselves, because that's the rational thing to do. Is each side taking in wrong info to bolster their sides? You bet they are, because where one stands on COVID-19, like everything else anymore... is a demonstration of fealty to one's tribe/religion/party. Group-think is a real thing, believe it or not.

@dogfish78, don't take this post as a blanket defense of you either. Lay off the "you're not a patriot, and may God have mercy on your soul" stuff. It's no way to engage in a conversation.

I appreciate your post. Unsure how far back you’ve read in the thread so far, but I and several others have attempted many times to have discussion with the likes of @pawnmanand @Prozac to no avail, while they sling ad hominems and logical fallacies. Clearly they never wanted to engage in any discourse that challenged their views. Plain english, if they’re going to throw trash, I’ll throw trash. Taking the “moral high ground” hasn’t gotten “conservatives” (if that’s what camp I’d be labeled into as) anywhere.

While you see my chosen language you reference as not a way to engage in conversation, I disagree; as it is the context it is used in that justifies it. Someone who would engage in rational debate wouldn’t be subjected to it. When they toss rational discourse aside for personal attacks and fallacies while asserting their supposed moral superiority for wishing OUR government to forcibly inject our countrymen and enter into a techno-dystopian passport future, one has to use strong language. It’s the only way to attempt to show the gravity of the situation and have them reflect on the choices they wish the institutions make.

We have a direct democracy infused republic, if we can keep it.

[Bozo]

14 hours ago, dogfish78 said:

This is the clown world you support.

Did someone call for a clown?

[gearhog]

On 8/8/2021 at 7:50 AM, pawnman said:

It's not about political narrative. It's about ending the pandemic. 

I don't understand how you can look at all the data available and conclude that the anti-vaxx argument is the logical one. 

Here's an interesting piece from NPR:

https://www.npr.org/2021/02/09/965703047/vaccines-could-drive-the-evolution-of-more-covid-19-mutants

Things we know: Viruses can and do mutate in vaccinated individuals. The current COVID vaccine does not eliminate the COVID virus. It may inhibit their replication enough to reduce symptoms of the variant they are designed to be effective against, and may, to a lesser extent, lesson the symptoms of individuals infected with an adjacent variant. However, according to the scientists referenced here by NPR, the prevention of symptoms may have no correlation with the ability to spread.

There is a possibility that you, as a vaccinated individual, may be gleefully skipping through your workplace, feeling no symptoms whatsoever, and spreading mutated virus aerosols under the illusion that you're not the one contributing to the pandemic. Perhaps someone in your workplace is unvaccinated with the latest variant booster, and is infected by your mutant variant. They begin to feel ill, pay attention to his/her body, and do the responsible thing by going home to isolate while allowing their body to function in the way it is designed. They might require the help of some supplements or long existing medications. Then they come back to work with a natural immunity that is superior in efficacy and duration. (https://www.merck.com/news/merck-discontinues-development-of-sars-cov-2-covid-19-vaccine-candidates-continues-development-of-two-investigational-therapeutic-candidates/)

The pandemic continues as the virus mutates in both the vaccinated and unvaccinated, thus periodically requiring a new vaccine, or "booster" according to this NPR newscast. Of course, that will need to be strictly enforced. I have no doubt that you, personally, want to save lives and end the pandemic. You've just been misled about the way it needs to happen, by people who do not care about those things.

https://www.newsweek.com/lambda-covid-variant-1000-cases-us-shows-vaccine-resistance-1615668

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/21/business/covid-vaccine-billionaires/index.html

 

Edited August 9, 2021 by torqued

[TheNewGazmo]

1 hour ago, torqued said:

Here's an interesting piece from NPR:

https://www.npr.org/2021/02/09/965703047/vaccines-could-drive-the-evolution-of-more-covid-19-mutants

Things we know: Viruses can and do mutate in vaccinated individuals. The current COVID vaccine does not eliminate the COVID virus. It may inhibit their replication enough to reduce symptoms of the variant they are designed to be effective against, and may, to a lesser extent, lesson the symptoms of individuals infected with an adjacent variant. However, according to the scientists referenced here by NPR, the prevention of symptoms may have no correlation with the ability to spread.

There is a possibility that you, as a vaccinated individual, may be gleefully skipping through your workplace, feeling no symptoms whatsoever, and spreading mutated virus aerosols under the illusion that you're not the one contributing to the pandemic. Perhaps someone in your workplace is unvaccinated with the latest variant booster, and is infected by your mutant variant. They begin to feel ill, pay attention to his/her body, and do the responsible thing by going home to isolate while allowing their body to function in the way it is designed. They might require the help of some supplements or long existing medications. Then they come back to work with a natural immunity that is superior in efficacy and duration. (https://www.merck.com/news/merck-discontinues-development-of-sars-cov-2-covid-19-vaccine-candidates-continues-development-of-two-investigational-therapeutic-candidates/)

The pandemic continues as the virus mutates in both the vaccinated and unvaccinated, thus periodically requiring a new vaccine, or "booster" according to this NPR newscast. Of course, that will need to be strictly enforced. I have no doubt that you, personally, want to save lives and end the pandemic. You've just been misled about the way it needs to happen, by people who do not care about those things.

https://www.newsweek.com/lambda-covid-variant-1000-cases-us-shows-vaccine-resistance-1615668

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/21/business/covid-vaccine-billionaires/index.html

 

This should not be of any surprise.  How is this any different than the flu other than COVID having a death rate of about 3.5x more?  The flu vaccine is only 40-60% effective.  40-60% is still better than 0%.  The flu mutates more often than COVID does. It still reduces the amount of flu-related hospital visits by an order of almost 4,000,000 people per year.  Yes, viruses mutate.  Most of the time when they do, they get weaker.  Is that happening with COVID?  It has mutated four times and while the Delta variant may be more transmissible, the jury is still out on whether it's more lethal. 

Fauci claims the vaccine will do just the opposite; reduce mutation.  The Delta variant has been linked to India, where over 32M people have gotten COVID.  Most, if none of which were vaccinated at the time.  The vaccine itself doesn't cause the mutations.  It's more about the rate of your vaccination schedule.  Mutations occur less when people get vaccinated quickly instead of spreading it out over a 6-12 month period, which allows the virus to jump from the unvaccinated to the vaccinated back to the unvaccinated.  The probability of mutation goes up each time it jumps to a new person.  So take your pick.  What makes the virus mutate more?  We've had at least four mutations amongst an unvaccinated globe (Delta was around last December before the vaccine was even out).  Only time will tell if we see more.

Some more good research:

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/08/study-ties-covid-vaccines-lower-transmission-rates

Edited August 9, 2021 by TheNewGazmo

[Alpharatz]

36 minutes ago, TheNewGazmo said:

This should not be of any surprise.  How is this any different than the flu other than COVID having a death rate of about 3.5x more?  The flu vaccine is only 40-60% effective.  40-60% is still better than 0%.  The flu mutates more often than COVID does. It still reduces the amount of flu-related hospital visits by an order of almost 4,000,000 people per year.  Yes, viruses mutate.  Most of the time when they do, they get weaker.  Is that happening with COVID?  It has mutated four times and while the Delta variant may be more transmissible, the jury is still out on whether it's more lethal. 

Fauci claims the vaccine will do just the opposite; reduce mutation.  The Delta variant has been linked to India, where over 32M people have gotten COVID.  Most, if none of which were vaccinated at the time.  The vaccine itself doesn't cause the mutations.  It's more about the rate of your vaccination schedule.  Mutations occur less when people get vaccinated quickly instead of spreading it out over a 6-12 month period, which allows the virus to jump from the unvaccinated to the vaccinated back to the unvaccinated.  The probability of mutation goes up each time it jumps to a new person.  So take your pick.  What makes the virus mutate more?  We've had at least four mutations amongst an unvaccinated globe (Delta was around last summer before the vaccine was even out).  Only time will tell if we see more.

Your discussion highlites the scariest part of this nastly little bug.  It may be (is?) impossible to get the vaccination rate high enough..fast enough to prevent some really nasty mutation that will render the present vaccine a moot point...i.e.  it will stop working...then it may be that ya got the DNA to save yourself  or ya don't....Survival of the fittest has always been the rule.  If humans have the technology to save themselves  and decide that a big pi@@ing contest is more fun...well .....let's see...an aviation example...the worst (and last) nose gear first touch down ya ever made.......

[TheNewGazmo]

11 minutes ago, Alpharatz said:

Your discussion highlites the scariest part of this nastly little bug.  It may be (is?) impossible to get the vaccination rate high enough..fast enough to prevent some really nasty mutation that will render the present vaccine a moot point...i.e.  it will stop working...then it may be that ya got the DNA to save yourself  or ya don't....Survival of the fittest has always been the rule.  If humans have the technology to save themselves  and decide that a big pi@@ing contest is more fun...well .....let's see...an aviation example...the worst (and last) nose gear first touch down ya ever made.......

Well, the good news is that pharmaceutical companies are already working on a Delta booster and mRNA vaccines don't take very long to make and trial.  Also remember that we're still talking about a virus that 98+% of people live through.  Vaccinated people may still get it, but they're spreading it less (even though they may feel asymptomatic), which means less people around them get it, which means it's R-value drops dramatically.  Between the vaccinated and the unvaccinated with natural anti-bodies from actually getting it, the hope is that it dies.  

More data:

https://www.kff.org/policy-watch/covid-19-vaccine-breakthrough-cases-data-from-the-states/

Edited August 9, 2021 by TheNewGazmo

[gearhog]

1 hour ago, TheNewGazmo said:

Well, the good news is that pharmaceutical companies are already working on a Delta booster and mRNA vaccines don't take very long to make and trial.  Also remember that we're still talking about a virus that 98+% of people live through.  Vaccinated people may still get it, but they're spreading it less (even though they may feel asymptomatic), which means less people around them get it, which means it's R-value drops dramatically.  Between the vaccinated and the unvaccinated with natural anti-bodies from actually getting it, the hope is that it dies.  

More data:

https://www.kff.org/policy-watch/covid-19-vaccine-breakthrough-cases-data-from-the-states/

This and your earlier one are both good posts. This Doctor also expands on your point about COVID being similar to the flu virus in some ways. But one of his points you should consider is that vaccines are not only a poor solution, but can be dangerous. The inventor of the mRNA vaccine, Dr Robert Malone, also explains this in his recent podcast with Doctor Bret Weinstein.  Why are we seeing breakout infections among the vaccinated in the summertime? Listen:

If you believe the things he is saying are "counter-factual", here is a list of links to all of the official scientific peer-reviewed studies he references in the flash drive he provided to the board members:

https://liveandlocalacadiana.com/a-video-has-surfaced-with-real-source-data-science-from-a-school-board-meeting-in-indiana/

Edited August 9, 2021 by torqued

[Guest]

51 minutes ago, torqued said:

This and your earlier one are both good posts. This Doctor also expands on your point about COVID being similar to the flu virus in some ways. But one of his points you should consider is that vaccines are not only a poor solution, but can be dangerous. The inventor of the mRNA vaccine, Dr Robert Malone, also explains this in his recent podcast with Doctor Bret Weinstein.  Why are we seeing breakout infections among the vaccinated in the summertime? Listen:

If you believe the things he is saying are "counter-factual", here is a list of links to all of the official scientific peer-reviewed studies he references in the flash drive he provided to the board members:

https://liveandlocalacadiana.com/a-video-has-surfaced-with-real-source-data-science-from-a-school-board-meeting-in-indiana/

Son, you just committed thought crime around these parts.

[pawnman]

Looks like the Pentagon set a date for mandatory vaccines: Sept 15 or upon full FDA approval, whichever happens first.

https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2021-08-09/pentagon-to-require-covid-vaccine-for-all-troops-by-sept-15

[gearhog]

1 hour ago, pawnman said:

Looks like the Pentagon set a date for mandatory vaccines: Sept 15 or upon full FDA approval, whichever happens first.

https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2021-08-09/pentagon-to-require-covid-vaccine-for-all-troops-by-sept-15

It's inescapable. Mandatory annual/semi-annual vaccinations and passports, for (almost) everyone, for a pandemic that never ends. It's a shitty situation, but so is living in North Korea. Cede ownership of your body, attempt to escape, or check out. That's life.

[FLEA]

Interesting letter from several Congress members floating around Facebook providing a legal context to dispute the lawfulness of SECDEFs order. 

[pawnman]

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/dont-expect-unemployment-benefits-if-you-dont-comply-with-your-employers-vaccine-requirement-11628287814

If your employer mandates vaccines and you don't get one... they can fire you and you'll probably be ineligible for unemployment. 

[FLEA]

11 minutes ago, pawnman said:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/dont-expect-unemployment-benefits-if-you-dont-comply-with-your-employers-vaccine-requirement-11628287814

If your employer mandates vaccines and you don't get one... they can fire you and you'll probably be ineligible for unemployment. 

The implications aren't the same. Military members are in a position of duress by nature of being in the military. (The same duress that garunteed us Miranda rights nearly a decade before Miranda vs Arizona.) Hence we cannot just refuse conditionally to our employment because we cannot end our employment on our own terms. 

Doe vs Rumsfield basically said that the military cannot mandate a vaccine and detain you or discipline you if you don't comply, unless the vaccine is fully FDA approved. I suppose the military could separate you, but then they would need to pay out non-voluntary separation pay to everyone they removed. That's a huge sum of money, and there are a lot of vaccine dissenters in the DoD right now. So probably not wise. 

Austin's best best is just to wait until FDA approval which is expected in a few weeks anyway. At that point he can mandate the Pfizer vaccine for troops who aren't otherwise vaccinated. 

Also interesting note, there appears to be legal ground to deny the vaccine, FDA or not, if you've recovered from COVID. The DoD can supposedly only mandate the vaccine if it provides substantial medical benefit. There is a strong argument that having recovered from COVID and possessing baseline immunities to the virus already will overshadow any substantial medical benefit garnered from the vaccine. 

When the vaccine is mandatory, as I expect it will be in a month or so regardless, I certain there will be several DoD members who will continue to litigate the decision. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. 

 

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, FLEA said:

Interesting letter from several Congress members floating around Facebook providing a legal context to dispute the lawfulness of SECDEFs order. 

Would you please post a link? Deleted my facebook.

 

3 minutes ago, FLEA said:

The implications aren't the same. Military members are in a position of duress by nature of being in the military. (The same duress that garunteed us Miranda rights nearly a decade before Miranda vs Arizona.) Hence we cannot just refuse conditionally to our employment because we cannot end our employment on our own terms. 

Doe vs Rumsfield basically said that the military cannot mandate a vaccine and detain you or discipline you if you don't comply, unless the vaccine is fully FDA approved. I suppose the military could separate you, but then they would need to pay out non-voluntary separation pay to everyone they removed. That's a huge sum of money, and there are a lot of vaccine dissenters in the DoD right now. So probably not wise. 

Austin's best best is just to wait until FDA approval which is expected in a few weeks anyway. At that point he can mandate the Pfizer vaccine for troops who aren't otherwise vaccinated. 

Also interesting note, there appears to be legal ground to deny the vaccine, FDA or not, if you've recovered from COVID. The DoD can supposedly only mandate the vaccine if it provides substantial medical benefit. There is a strong argument that having recovered from COVID and possessing baseline immunities to the virus already will overshadow any substantial medical benefit garnered from the vaccine. 

When the vaccine is mandatory, as I expect it will be in a month or so regardless, I certain there will be several DoD members who will continue to litigate the decision. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. 

 

How does one show they’ve recovered from it?