Airline job or return to mil

[Mox]

Question for the smart guys/gals that have come before me. I’m a T-1 IP at CBM.  Currently on terminal leave for retirement til 31 May 2020. I have completed half of indoc at a major Air Line, before our class got sent home due to CoVid-19. I’m a prior C-17 guy and the functional said there could be a September training date available if I do withdraw my retirement paperwork.  I know most are going to say I’m crazy for wanting to go back, but AETC is not for me. From what I remember is I would incur a 2 year ADSC for the PCS but not for the training, or is that still a thing.  I already have a seniority number and the military liaison at said company stated going back active duty would help their cause and it wouldn’t be looked At negatively. Any good insight on gotchas I’m not thinking about?  I have a seniority number, and this would possibly keep me from commuting to NYC for a couple of years since I’ll be the plug for a while with the reduction in hiring

TIA

Edited March 27, 2020 by Mox

[pcola]

Is there a retiree voluntary return to AD program currently running? Might be worth looking into going that route as well


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

[Squirt]

What about delaying retirement to say August instead of re-upping for 2 more years?  Keep track of how much USERRA you have left.  I think my biggest factor would be what my seniority was and how likely it would be to get furloughed and if I could live on retirement alone for a while.  

Edited March 27, 2020 by Squirt

[Mox]

43 minutes ago, pcola said:

Is there a retiree voluntary return to AD program currently running? Might be worth looking into going that route as well


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

Not sure if it’s still active but the VRRAD FAQs from 2018 says for flying positions you owe 3 years. If requal is required, it’s 48 months. Under this program, not eligible for promotion or bonus

[HuggyU2]

You have a seniority number?  Go back. 

Edited March 27, 2020 by HuggyU2

[tac airlifter]

If you return to AD flying C-17s, within 6 months you’ll know you made a mistake.

[Mox]

44 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

If you return to AD flying C-17s, within 6 months you’ll know you made a mistake.

What makes you say that, just curious?  I did time at TCM, averaged 800 hours/240 days a year Gone but still enjoyed it. I’m one of those guys that after 13 years of flying I still have fun. 

[AirGuardianC141747]

4 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

If you return to AD flying C-17s, within 6 months you’ll know you made a mistake.

If you despised it prior to departure, you are probably correct. Very situation dependent and priorities change. Everyone is different and on a different course, but if you have a line number and it’s OK by the company (couldn’t see why not right now), it might help others if you were senior enough/helps stabilize your finances (known quantity)/Seniority rises/accrue greater percentage of mil retirement 2.5% per year which adds up and the icing on any cake is if you enjoy it. No one else can answer that question but you. 

I earn a good living, contract definitely far behind others but coupled with Mil retirement and other benefits it works extremely well 4 me!
BLUF - I have a Great Time going to work compared to others which I’m sure creates longevity in my case. Not in all cases as I see pilots from many carriers who are amazingly still chugging along, crusty, worn out and simply miserable from an unfortunate checkered past not of their own doing. They dwell among others who are luckier than them and they let the past burn them up, etc. Or others who are impatient to “get theirs” on an immediate basis and seem to have always been screwed or held down some way. Nature of this industry, timing is everything and we tend to give too much credit to ourselves. It’s a volatile world and has many opportunities view dependent.

Point is -If the opportunity is available and you enjoy it/fits your needs = do it. Otherwise find another way! You only have ONE Life!

*If Possible - Try to get something in writing that indicates your employer releases you from obligation for a designated amount of duration (that meets your needs) due to current events. AKA, COVID-19 

Good Luck out there as we hopefully extinguish this fire sale event.

Edited March 27, 2020 by AirGuardianC141747

[gearhog]

If you were retiring, no one is going to tell you anything you don't already know about AD. You're not crazy, it's probably a smart move.

Some things to consider:

You've got a seniority number, and that's a benefit only if your airline returns to business as usual. Not all airlines are going to recover from this.

Some airlines are saying that military leave during this time does not accrue toward the USERRA 5 year clock. Talk to your union. Likely not a concern.

This is going to change customer travel behavior for a long time, even if the economy recovers. Necessity is the mother of invention, and people are being forced to figure out how to be productive at work and engage in leisure activities without traveling. Load factors will recover slowly.

On the other hand, this is a massively destabilizing geo-political upset. Get ready for some chaos and long TDYs.

I was a CBM T-1IP a long time ago.  If there were one assignment I could go back to, that's be it. Just floating, fishing, and skiing on the TennTom.

 

 

 

[LowNSlow]

I think the biggest “gotcha” is the possibility of a 179 or 365. What’s your STRD? You might be hot for one after your AETC tour.

Does anyone know how USERRA 5yr limit works if you go back to Active Duty (actually never left Active Duty?)

[tac airlifter]

8 hours ago, Mox said:

What makes you say that, just curious?  I did time at TCM, averaged 800 hours/240 days a year Gone but still enjoyed it. I’m one of those guys that after 13 years of flying I still have fun. 

I also like flying.  However given his TIS, it’s likely he will requal and not actually fly the line.  And 6 months into whatever job they have him doing, I think he will regret the choice.

[Mox]

2 hours ago, LowNSlow said:

I think the biggest “gotcha” is the possibility of a 179 or 365. What’s your STRD? You might be hot for one after your AETC tour.

Does anyone know how USERRA 5yr limit works if you go back to Active Duty (actually never left Active Duty?)

My STRD is Oct 2013. My last deployment was Jan 2017, if that matters anymore. 

[AirGuardianC141747]

2 hours ago, torqued said:

You've got a seniority number, and that's a benefit only if your airline returns to business as usual. Not all airlines are going to recover from this.

This is going to change customer travel behavior for a long time, even if the economy recovers. Necessity is the mother of invention, and people are being forced to figure out how to be productive at work and engage in leisure activities without traveling. Load factors will recover slowly.

On the other hand, this is a massively destabilizing geo-political upset. Get ready for some chaos and long TDYs.

Unfortunately I believe this as well ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Landscape will change, we’ll see where the cards fall... Very Good Points!

[Smokin]

The entire statute is fairly short.  If you are an airline guy and have relied on WOMs, just read it.  It'll take you 10 min tops and you won't get bad gouge from a guy who heard it from a guy.

https://www.justice.gov/crt-military/userra-statute

 

One notable highlight on USERRA for this case; it says nothing about a break in service: 

The term 'service in the uniformed services' means the performance of duty on a voluntary or involuntary basis in a uniformed service under competent authority and includes: active duty, active duty for training, initial active duty for training, inactive duty training, full-time National Guard, a period for which a person is absent from a position of employment for the purpose of an examination to determine the fitness of the employment for the purpose of performing funeral honors duty as authorized by section 12503 of title 10 or section 115 of title 32.

 

[Smokin]

Forgot to add, I would probably go back if I were you.  If you enjoyed AD for the most part and are willing to go back, that would be the financially smart thing to do.  You have your line number, so assuming the airline doesn't go under, you can return at year 3 or 4 pay which is way better than year 1 pay.  You'll also keep all the non-rev benefits and such in the meantime.  To me, this is not only the smart thing for you, but also helps your fellow classmates.  One less pilot on the active payroll is one pilot closer to not having to furlough guys who don't have another career they could go back to.

[SocialD]

If you have a seniority number and can go back to a gig you like, I'd go back.  Keep a nice steady paycheck coming in and get to watch this all pan out from the sidelines.  If you don't actually get furloughed, then you continue to accrue longevity, so you'd come back to 3rd(ish) year pay.  Aside from a possibility of a 179 or 365, I can't see too many downsides.

[Mox]

16 hours ago, LowNSlow said:

I think the biggest “gotcha” is the possibility of a 179 or 365. What’s your STRD? You might be hot for one after your AETC tour.

Does anyone know how USERRA 5yr limit works if you go back to Active Duty (actually never left Active Duty?)

My STRD is Oct 2013. My last deployment was Jan 2017, if that matters anymore. 

[Mox]

Awesome. Thanks everyone for the input. Definitely a couple things to consider moving forward. My employer today stated that I didn’t qualify for MLOA because I’m still active duty and thus don’t qualify for USERRA protection. Said USERRA applies to Guard/Reserves and I would have to apply for PLOA. Still sifting thru the legal stuff to see if it’s valid. 

[Whisky]

2 hours ago, Mox said:

Awesome. Thanks everyone for the input. Definitely a couple things to consider moving forward. My employer today stated that I didn’t qualify for MLOA because I’m still active duty and thus don’t qualify for USERRA protection. Said USERRA applies to Guard/Reserves and I would have to apply for PLOA. Still sifting thru the legal stuff to see if it’s valid. 

Definitely look into it more. Your employer is incorrect. The laws for MLOA cover active duty.  We had several guys in our C-17 squadron that came back to active duty for 3 years and are on mil leave with major airlines. If you're on hold just waiting for training for your airline indefinitely, I can't see why the airline would have an issue.

My guess is the furloughs and bankruptcies are on their way for the airlines unfortunately. Even with bailouts. The flights look so much worse than after 9/11.  At least the gas is cheap for them though.

Take a look at the link Smokin posted. It also has provisions in there for national emergencies etc, which may help your case given the current Corona crisis.

Edited March 28, 2020 by Whisky

[HuggyU2]

2 hours ago, Mox said:

Awesome. Thanks everyone for the input. Definitely a couple things to consider moving forward. My employer today stated that I didn’t qualify for MLOA because I’m still active duty and thus don’t qualify for USERRA protection. Said USERRA applies to Guard/Reserves and I would have to apply for PLOA. Still sifting thru the legal stuff to see if it’s valid. 

Wow!  I guess I beat the system when I went back on full-up active duty while on Mil Leave!  Yay me!!

Yes, I'm being sarcastic.. although when I did it, USERRA applied to active, Guard, or Reserve.  Voluntary or involuntary.  I'm guessing it hasn't changed.  

I'm no USERRA lawyer... but if I had to bet money, I'd say your employer is full of shit.  

Call. An. Expert.  This is the guy I called and asked for help many years ago when I was dealing with the same issue:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_F._Wright

I don't know how to contact him now.  But he helped write USERRA.  If you need the right answer to make a critical USERRA decision, don't rely on your employer.  

Edited March 28, 2020 by HuggyU2

[Smokin]

Completely agree with HuggyU2.  Your employer is full of it.  The part I quoted specifically mentions "Active Duty".  You would be fully within your rights to drop long term mil leave.  That being said, I would follow HuggyU2's advice and talk to a USERRA lawyer first just to make completely sure only because if your employer disagrees, you may need to take legal action afterwards.

[gearhog]

10 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

Call. An. Expert.  This is the guy I called and asked for help many years ago when I was dealing with the same issue:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_F._Wright

 

Second this. I called this guy when I had questions and I felt like he was giving me a PhD in USERRA over the phone. Great stuff, but he gave me a high pressure sales pitch to join the Reserve Officer's Association at the end of the call.

[bcuziknow]

What part of this do you all not get?

“I’m still active duty and thus don’t qualify for USERRA protection”

Edited March 28, 2020 by bcuziknow

[HuggyU2]

44 minutes ago, bcuziknow said:

What part of this do you all not get?

“I’m still active duty and thus don’t qualify for USERRA protection”

I don’t know, Your Honor. Apparently quite a bit. So please spell it out for us. Thank you for your patience. 
 

The fact he hasn’t gotten off of active duty makes it a slightly different case than mine. Therefore i suggested he contact a USERRA lawyer to get the truth. If you know more, then please spend a few minutes tapping on your keyboard in the hope of offering enlightenment. 
 

Torqued: CAPT Wright worked with ROA for many years and wrote a great USERRA column each month. I joined ROA as a Life Member right out of college, which gave me access to him. Glad he was willing to speak to you. Super smart guy. 

Edited March 28, 2020 by HuggyU2

[bcuziknow]

I hope someone copied the long post I just did...accidentally deleted it?

still trying to figure out this site.

Edited March 28, 2020 by bcuziknow