Attack Helo vs. Fighter in 1v1 Air-to-Air

[Tank]

Thoughts?
 

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/attack-helicopter-crews-explain-why-an-attack-helicopter-if-properly-flown-would-defeat-most-fighter-airplanes-in-1v1-air-combat/

[Zero]

This article pops up every few months in different sources, always citing that 5:1 "kill" ratio that the 1978 exercise "proved."  Here was the kicker in the data: the helos had no shot-kill criteria whatsoever.  None.  If they got their gun in the general vicinity of the fighter, without regard for range amongst all things... they called a "kill."  The fighters involved in the "test" weren't aware of the helos self-designed kill criteria until the debrief.  There's still a few silver-backs around that had first or second-hand knowledge of this one if you look hard enough through your community-- probably the blue hair that shows up in the bar once a year and empties the squadron's Jack supply...

Had this occurred in the modern sense, the Army crews would have had to take out loans to repay all of their invalid kill calls.  

A fighter can't turn with a helo-- the things can hover, pedal-turn, and hid behind scrub brush.  You stay high and outside where they can't see you, and you pop 'em from long range-- similar to the way experienced fighters engage Hogs.  

Cheers,

Zero

[Breckey]

Here's a pic of the "gun" used. It was a test rig on the cargo hook of a Huey. They had a Stinger setup on the rocket pod attachment as well.

Fun fact: J-CATCH was how the 20th and later the 6th SOS Huey's got their leopard camouflage pattern. It was designed to replicate the Hinds they were simulating.

[Hacker]

Weren't the fighters also limited to gun-only in this exercise?

TB and Chewie laugh in GBU-10.

[Breckey]

You also have "Chopper Popper" on a stick at the Zoo.

https://www.wearethemighty.com/articles/the-chopper-popper-scored-the-a-10s-first-air-to-air-kill-against-an-iraqi-helicopter

[CharlieHotel47]

What about the bros flying the C-123 back in the ‘nam days that downed a helo by throwing a bunch of cargo strap chains above the rotor system??? Heavy bros have a dog in the fight too Lol it was one of the stories in “flying through midnight” by John Halliday.


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[Bigred]

When I flew the 60 I was able to fly 1v1 against an -18. I could out turn him all day and if I flew low and directly at him, he couldn’t get a gun kill without going uncomfortably nose low. In the debrief he said he’d just drop a bomb on me and if I climbed to avoid frag he’d shoot me with his gun. 

[busdriver]

6 hours ago, Zero said:

A fighter can't turn with a helo-- the things can hover, pedal-turn, and hid behind scrub brush.  You stay high and outside where they can't see you, and you pop 'em from long range-- similar to the way experienced fighters engage Hogs.  

Cheers,

Zero

The helos fly red air at WIC during the DCA vul every year, shot kill is sketchy trying to simulate a MANPADS, but it's not complete bullshit.

Every couple of years a WUG will get the idea to drop down and try to gun one of the helos for shits and grins, it usually doesn't turn out good.  Then the lesson gets learned for a few classes and they just sit off and snipe us with AIM-9Xs where we die before having a chance to react.

So yeah, exactly like Zero says.

[Breckey]

The helos fly red air at WIC during the DCA vul every year, shot kill is sketchy trying to simulate a MANPADS, but it's not complete bullshit.
Every couple of years a WUG will get the idea to drop down and try to gun one of the helos for shits and grins, it usually doesn't turn out good.  Then the lesson gets learned for a few classes and they just sit off and snipe us with AIM-9Xs where we die before having a chance to react.
So yeah, exactly like Zero says.

Bones has a good story of downing a Raptor that did exactly that.

[Smokin]

I'd think a high angle strafe type attack would be fairly effective and safe if it were really gun only.  Get high, stay high, and attack out of the sun.  You can't shoot what you can't find.

[Clark Griswold]

Related to the topic:

A Viper with Sidewinders: A Unique Look at the AH-1Z’s Retired Air-to-Air Capability.

and AH-1Z's employing Stingers against air targets (flares) at the 0:40 mark

NG's site on the Longbow radar says it has a 360 sweep and an Air Targeting Mode, can it detect and cue its own missile? 

[Danger41]

Helos did well in an air to air role in a documentary called “Firebirds” starring Nicolas Cage. 

[abmwaldo]

On 5/1/2020 at 2:39 PM, Breckey said:

On 5/1/2020 at 1:04 PM, busdriver said:

The helos fly red air at WIC during the DCA vul every year, shot kill is sketchy trying to simulate a MANPADS, but it's not complete bullshit.
Every couple of years a WUG will get the idea to drop down and try to gun one of the helos for shits and grins, it usually doesn't turn out good.  Then the lesson gets learned for a few classes and they just sit off and snipe us with AIM-9Xs where we die before having a chance to react.
So yeah, exactly like Zero says.

Bones has a good story of downing a Raptor that did exactly that.

I was in that debrief, the record skip was epic. 

[Zero]

22 hours ago, Smokin said:

I'd think a high angle strafe type attack would be fairly effective and safe if it were really gun only.  Get high, stay high, and attack out of the sun.  You can't shoot what you can't find.

That's exactly what works damned near every time.  The only time we've gone down to "turn" with a helo was to blow through and get them to wheel underneath to keep the aggressor in sight (just like we do with a "circle the Hogs"), inevitably leading to a climb as they look up.  Then the other guy runs in for a low-to-high Fox II. 

Oh, and in the sim when they tell you there's blue helos in the scenario but they turn out to be ten hostile Hinds swarming under you.  Then, when you get tired of them shooting at you, you drop into the middle of them and just turn the gun on whilst pulling six Gs.  Absolutely Leeroy Jenkins.  

Got four of the bastards... even surprised myself.  

[Clark Griswold]

4 hours ago, Danger41 said:

Helos did well in an air to air role in a documentary called “Firebirds” starring Nicolas Cage. 

They were the greatest