Flight Engineer ?s

[169FE]

That's actually a really good point man, I really appreciate the insight. Though the cold and snow might seem bad you can always dress warm (or warmer and try to stay warm). I heard that the instructors are rather liberal in what you wear when out in the field, no? I imagine ground pounding longer miles in the summer or spring when it's rained a lot and your boots are caked with lbs of mud and that does seem pretty crappy like you are mentioning. Regardless, I'll push through either summer or winter SERE.

How do you like flying on the -135? There's an old Crew Chief from Fairchild who works on my shop floor now. How do you like using the wingtip pods on the -135? I imagine most of your stateside refueling is done with the boom since almost all USAF birds are boom refuelers and Navy/Allied forces are the hose and drogue. Since I deal with the -10 in my full-time job quite a bit now I've always wondered how the boomers on -135s like the laying down style you use while refueling.

Thanks for the replies man I appreciate your insight to the training.

[HerkFE]

The USAF is not going to spend money to send your SERE/Water Survival to have you wash out of BFE (and thus, waste money). On the Boom side of the house we see ANG/AFRC students go to SERE after BBOC (our BFE). Sometimes they do it after BBOC before Initial Qual or they do BBOC/Initial Qual then go after.

My unit had a rash of Loads who went through all of the Load training then couldn't make it past SERE so they started sending them all to SERE first. I guess it all depends on the unit. I've seen it happen both ways and it mainly depended on the availability of the school and the member's availability/job situation, etc.

[SurelySerious]

couldn't make it past SERE

Interesting.

[ElLoco]

Interesting.

2...didn't even know that was possible.....

[HerkFE]

2...didn't even know that was possible.....

Trust me.

ETA: Mostly disgusting fat bodies who kept getting hurt in the woods.

Edited April 19, 2014 by HerkFE

[Lawman]

My unit had a rash of Loads who went through all of the Load training then couldn't make it past SERE so they started sending them all to SERE first. I guess it all depends on the unit. I've seen it happen both ways and it mainly depended on the availability of the school and the member's availability/job situation, etc.

Weird, the Army is working on the opposite idea. They got tired of people cheese dicking it through the C course after spending money on basic and advanced aircraft training and having to either boot them or give them a pass.

But our SERE course is also at Ft Rucker so no TDY just 3 weeks in a sequestered barracks with no phone and occasional trips to the "woods."

Edited April 19, 2014 by Lawman

[169FE]

Sounds like I've got nothing to worry about at SERE even if I'm in relatively decent shape after reading these replies about people not passing the course; haha. It should be an interesting few weeks! I've heard mixed reviews. Some say it's hard. Some say all you do is hike and sleep in the woods and get a little hungry. Some say the winter SERE is horrible, some say it's better because it's not muggy and hot and you can dress warm. I suppose it's all in the eye of the person who is there and how they handle the situations they put you in.

[Champ Kind]

It sucks either way.

My lesson learned from SERE: just when you think it can't get any worse, it can.

[169FE]

It sucks either way.

My lesson learned from SERE: just when you think it can't get any worse, it can.

Sweet, this should be a blast!

[169FE]

This might be a dumb question, but I don't know the answer and am looking to figure out:

When I'm at training for FE, what all entitlements for pay am I provided? Of course regular pay... how about stuff like BAH, flight pay, family separation, etc.

I don't leave for any of my training until September, but it'd be nice to get a beat on how my income will be effected when training full-time away from my full time job as a civilian.

Thank you!

[Azimuth]

You'll get flight pay once your Aeronautical Orders (AO) are cut, which is normally the first day of intial qual at Little Rock. Family separation will start after being seaparted for more than 30-days. As for Abah I don't know the rule for ANG/AFRC folks.

[169FE]

You'll get flight pay once your Aeronautical Orders (AO) are cut, which is normally the first day of intial qual at Little Rock. Family separation will start after being seaparted for more than 30-days. As for Abah I don't know the rule for ANG/AFRC folks.

Thanks for the input, Azimuth.

[169FE]

Two months, twenty-seven days until fundies! Can't wait.

[Prosuper]

Tried to become a FE four times from the Crew Chief world but always got denied for some reason or another. For those who are successful please try the mx world first, in the early 90's we had a group on E-3 FE's who came from non mx backgrounds and did not have the common sense on how things on acft worked. They became very defensive when trying to do a MX debrief. If your working in services or MPF and can't tell the difference between a T-6 and a C-5 please stay where you are at.

[Azimuth]

Tried to become a FE four times from the Crew Chief world but always got denied for some reason or another. For those who are successful please try the mx world first, in the early 90's we had a group on E-3 FE's who came from non mx backgrounds and did not have the common sense on how things on acft worked. They became very defensive when trying to do a MX debrief. If your working in services or MPF and can't tell the difference between a T-6 and a C-5 please stay where you are at.

Some of the stupidest students I taught at the FTU were prior Maintainers. I've stopped a Crew Chief before from pushing in fuel boost pump circuit breakers because they were popped. Then I heard that a part of all maintenance school at Sheppard was literally explaining the difference between a Phillips and flathead screw driver. Just because you were prior [insert job], does not make you successful at a new career field, no matter how much you think you have a one up due to your previous background.

When I was deployed with C-130 maintainers I heard some GAC guy say that Flight Engineers are Maintainers that couldn't hack maintenance. I laughed, yet he was being serious.

[deaddebate]

Some of the stupidest students I taught at the FTU were prior Maintainers. I've stopped a Crew Chief before from pushing in fuel boost pump circuit breakers because they were popped. Then I heard that a part of all maintenance school at Sheppard was literally explaining the difference between a Phillips and flathead screw driver. Just because you were prior [insert job], does not make you successful at a new career field, no matter how much you think you have a one up due to your previous background.

When I was deployed with C-130 maintainers I heard some GAC guy say that Flight Engineers are Maintainers that couldn't hack maintenance. I laughed, yet he was being serious.

Tao Te Ching: To learn, you must first unlearn everything. To teach a student the way, you must annihilate their attachment to what they believe to be the way. Edited July 3, 2014 by deaddebate

[169FE]

Tried to become a FE four times from the Crew Chief world but always got denied for some reason or another. For those who are successful please try the mx world first, in the early 90's we had a group on E-3 FE's who came from non mx backgrounds and did not have the common sense on how things on acft worked. They became very defensive when trying to do a MX debrief. If your working in services or MPF and can't tell the difference between a T-6 and a C-5 please stay where you are at.

You aren't even kidding either. I've came from 10 years background in maintenance (not that this is a lot, but it's better than someone from a non-maintenance background with no knowledge of aircraft sub-systems or theory of flight, etc). I'm not quite sure when the powers that be decided to take pipe-liners in to the 1A1 field, or if it was just a brief exception due to the ops-tempo in the early 2000s, but anymore I believe the USAF is back to only taking FEs in from feeder AFSCs or those who have AP license, private pilot's licenses, or similar. I wish it would have worked out for you Prosuper. Crew Chief is still an essential role, hold your head high.

Some of the stupidest students I taught at the FTU were prior Maintainers. I've stopped a Crew Chief before from pushing in fuel boost pump circuit breakers because they were popped. Then I heard that a part of all maintenance school at Sheppard was literally explaining the difference between a Phillips and flathead screw driver. Just because you were prior [insert job], does not make you successful at a new career field, no matter how much you think you have a one up due to your previous background.

When I was deployed with C-130 maintainers I heard some GAC guy say that Flight Engineers are Maintainers that couldn't hack maintenance. I laughed, yet he was being serious.

That's true too. Common sense just isn't so common any more. Younger troops now are just not as hands on as they used to be it seems; everything is becoming automated, automatic, and it doesn't require any actual hands on work, trouble-shooting knowledge, and so much of the backshop stuff is being passed along to depots or vendors. I work as a Field Service Engineer in the civ world in addition to the Guard as an FE and it amazes me how much backshop work is farmed out now. Turnover is high, and all the 5-level worker bees or above seem to be hard to retain.

[HerkFE]

Flight Engineers are Maintainers that couldn't hack maintenance.

Funny.

[169FE]

Fu

You know, honestly, the most important thing I feel a new person in aircrew can bring to the table whether they're prior maintenance or not is the right attitude, being positive, and ready to learn. Even us maintainers (or most in the USAF for that matter) don't understand the physic of flight, how a solenoid, limit switch, works, engine performance of an aircraft (unless you're in the right AFSC), etc. So in the end, what matters most is that the attitude matches the job and that the person is ready to learn. I think someone with the right attitude who works their butt off to learn can come in with no knowledge of maintenance from flipping burgers and become a better FE than someone who comes in from say, Hydraulics or Crew Chief, but with an attitude that they've already "earned" the right to wear the pajama suit and act as if they know everything already. From what I understand (and I haven't gone through any of my course for FE yet-start in a few months), this AFSC can be very demanding.

So in the end, attitude does equals altitude. That's really in any job. Of course it helps to go in with a baseline knowledge, but any one willing to give it their all could turn in to a great crew member. That's half the battle anyway, finding guys and gals that you could see yourself flying around with for months in stressful situation without wanting to rip their head off; at least from my experience that is a huge factor (not that I really have much at this point, just seems to be noticeable).

Cheers.

-Anyone have tips for a FNG prior to leaving for fundies and BFE down at good ol' Lackland-Medina?

[Prosuper]

I am a 30 year plus A&P, what I tried to instill into my young troops before I crossed into the blue id world was try not to be a glorified gas station attendant, you can train a monkey to refuel and lox airplanes. I had the pleasure to work with some old school F.E's who started on recips who knew their shit and made your job easier when it came to actually debriefing troubleshooting and repairing. I think its a generational thing, my childhood was working on cars, building go carts from a lawn mower engine and actually taking shop classes in high school. I have a 17 year old son who is scared to death to learn how to drive.

[169FE]

I am a 30 year plus A&P, what I tried to instill into my young troops before I crossed into the blue id world was try not to be a glorified gas station attendant, you can train a monkey to refuel and lox airplanes. I had the pleasure to work with some old school F.E's who started on recips who knew their shit and made your job easier when it came to actually debriefing troubleshooting and repairing. I think its a generational thing, my childhood was working on cars, building go carts from a lawn mower engine and actually taking shop classes in high school. I have a 17 year old son who is scared to death to learn how to drive.

Definitely can't argue that one; valid point. Well, hopefully I can keep the old school mentality going in to training and then with my National Guard Squadron. We fly H3s and I pray to the God of C-130s they stick around long enough for me to get some good time in the old bird. Like you said, it seems like the old school mentality is disappearing, back shop work is being farmed out to OEM manufacturers, and trouble-shooting now is basically, "If something does't work swap, drop parts and put a new ones in until the problem's fixed." That, or the little black box is doing much of the trouble-shooting for you.

Anyways, what do I know what I'm talking about I am just a new guy. Hopefully it's possible to still be a respected old-school type of FE!

[169FE]

11 days until Fundies, hooah!