Flight Engineer ?s

[Guest MitchBaernet]

Are FE's enlisted, navs, or pilots? I know the KC-10's have FE's, do any other planes?

[HerkDerka]

FE's are all enlisted. They are not pilots or navs.

Eng's are required to spend about at least four years as some type of maintenance troop. Then they go to basic flight engineer school to learn how to work TOLD and then to FTU for their specific aircraft. Their main job is to monitor the engines, operate aircraft systems, compute TOLD, and fix minor manitenance issues and complete inspections when away from home station. Eng's are basically the resident systems expert on the plane.

The USAF planes that have FEs are as follows:

C-130 - All variants (C-130J is the exception).

C-141 - Two engineers

C-5 - Two engineers

E-3

E-8

KC-10

MH-53J/M - Two engineers

HH-60

UH-1N

There are eng's on OSA planes like the VC-25 and C-20, etc. But I don't know much about them.

HD

[ 05. August 2004, 01:32: Message edited by: HercDriver24 ]

[Guest HueyPilot]

UH-1s and HH-60s have FEs, but no panel. The helo FE is different from FW FE in that they do serve to preflight the aircraft, help with TOLD and fix minor MX issues, but they don't monitor aircraft systems. Instead they help the pilots maintain SA regarding the aircraft's position in a hover, and act as a set of eyes to reduce collisions with aircraft or mother Earth.

Air Force helicopter FEs are just like US Army crew chiefs....all Army helicopters have a flying crew chief, except the Chinook, who is actually called a flight engineer.

[Guest hav2AV8]

Are Flight Engineers Rated Officers, or Enlisted?

I apologize in advance if my lack of knowledge offends anyone. I believe at my unit, age waivers were given to both Engineers, and Navs, to become copilots, because of the "J" upgrade.

[herkbum]

Only officers (pilots, navs, and I believe ABM's) are rated in the Air Force. As stated above FE's are enlisted.

[Guest C17Heavy]

As a prior Air Force C-141B/C Instructor Flight Engineer, I believe I can answer this question. A Flight Engineer is an enlisted flying position. It is not a rated position, as only officers can be rated. The Flight Engineer is responsible to the Aircraft Commander for in-flight aircraft systems operation and troubleshooting, as well as computing takeoff and landing data (TOLD).

Flight Engineers used to be essential for safe operation of complex heavy aircraft. However, with new technology, the Flight Engineer is becoming extinct. Little black boxes and computers are replacing Flight Engineers, just as they did to the Navigators. New aircraft being built today incorporate a 2-person cockpit concept, including only a pilot and copilot. Computers and advanced systems now perform all tasks the Flight Engineer used to perform.

I am now a pilot. I can tell you that nothing I accomplished as a Flight Engineer transferred to my pilot world. My engineer flight hours do not count towards my total pilot hours, nor do my years of aviation experience as a Flight Engineer count. In fact, my flight pay went DOWN when I became a pilot because the enlisted and the officer flight pay systems do not complement each other. Pilot flight pay is determined by years of rated service. I sure wish the Flight Engineer was a rated position for that reason.

That being said, I have all the respect in the world for enlisted flight crewmembers and I have never regretted the path I took to get to where I am now. My Flight Engineer experience, as well as my Crew Chief experience has given me greater air sense and situational awareness. And by the way, I am proof that engineers can fly airplanes. I agree with crewdawg though, you've got to cut the applicants off somewhere. The Air Force trains the best and college is just one more step in the process to make you the best.

[Guest C-130 Nav]

According to AFI 11-402, "Only USAF commissioned officers may receive USAF ratings."

"The following are the USAF aeronautical ratings:

...Pilot, ...Navigator, ...Air Battle Manager (ABM), ...Observer, [and] ...Flight Surgeon..."

"ABM’s will be rated when they attend a graduate level [E-3/E-8] FTU course that leads to the award of the aeronautical rating or designation."

Although observers wear the same wings that navigators wear, they have a distinct and separate rating, unlike EWO and WSO who are rated navigators. They get their rating after graduating from "NASA Mission Specialist training".

"When an AF member qualifies for the Astronaut qualifier, the Astronaut Qualifier symbol may be worn (superimposed) on the rated badge they are eligible to wear. This is not a separate USAF rating."

This AFI is dated 29 July 2003 and it's possible that some of the information may have change.

[HerkDerka]

Regarding engineers:

1) It takes awhile to become a flight engineer. It used to be that engs had to do a tour as a maitenance troop and then they could crosstrain. Now they are accepting applicants from all AFSCs, but you still can't do it right out of basic training. You have to have time in.

2) It is almost certain that they won't be training new engineers by the time you would be able to cross train. The AF is trying to buy J-models and slots for engineers have been dwindling for years.

3) If you were to become a flight engineer, you would have to reenlist. Basically you would end up spending a minimum of six years on active duty before you could even start pursuing your commission. Around this time you are getting dangerously close to age restrictions for UPT.

4) It is damn hard to be a flight engineer deployed all of the time and trying to get your college degree.

[Guest ruckerstud]

The pipeline for FEs works something like this:

BMT- basic training that everyone goes through

EUAC- Enlisted Undergraduate Aircrew Course, which is for everyone who will be enlisted aircrew

Some sort of FE school- If you are a helo FE, it will be at Kirtland, I can't really speak to the fixed wing side

Initial qual in your airframe- again, this depends on your airframe

Somewhere in the mix - SERE, maybe dunker

The downside is that you are in tech school for a year or more. That and you are competing for promotion in a VERY small career field, so if you decide you want to stay enlisted, making rank it tough.

The upside, you are flying. And at least in the helo world, for the most part the pilot would rather have you on board than the extra gas.

Hope this helps.

[Mambo]

OK, I appreciate you guys helping out with the college info, but let an FE tell him about the flight engineer stuff...

Flight Engineers are currently on C-130's (minus the J), C-5, CV-22, Helo's, E-3 AWACS, KC-10's, 707's and 747's at the 89th AW.

1. You have to be a Senior Airman to cross-train into the fixed wing FE AFSC. That is at 3 years on active duty.

2. You do not have to come from a maintenence background, but it is highly recommended.

3. They WILL be training flight engineers for quite a while unless they plan on retiring the above aircraft within the next 5 years.

4. The training flow goes something like this:

Enlisted Aircrew Undergraduate Course - 2 weeks at Lackland.

Survival Course - 2 weeks at Fairchild AFB. Throw water survival in there too.

Basic Flight Engineer Course - 6 weeks at Altus AFB learning the basics.

Flight Engineer Initial Qual - time varies from 3 months to 6 months depending on airframe.

Flight Engineer Mission Qual - Depending on airframe, length and hours required varies.

5. I know many, many FE's that have completed college degrees while flying and deploying and a few who have gotten commissions and pilot slots.

Being an FE is a great job. It's challenging and rewarding. If you'd like more detailed info, PM me.

As these guys have said, if you really want to be a pilot then put everything you've got into it.

[Guest Fairford]

I have been thinking about looking into an Aircrew posistion (preferably Flt. engineer) with either the ANG or AF Reserves (McGuire AFB). I am prior AD Air Force (87-91) , 38 years old , and full time Federal Gov't employee. I don't think my age is a problem , I read that you have to be able to do 20 years before you turn 60 ,which I still fall under , just wondering if the AF would train someone at 38 into an aircrew AFSC. While I was AD (16 years ago) , my AFSC was Security Forces. Also , if recruited , will the Gov't retain my employment while I attend tech school. Just trying to get some feedback from anyone with experience in this area. Any suggestions appreciated.

[Guest TheBurt]

Fairford,

I'll be to the point. Most units will not hire you as a Flight Engineer unless you have at least 2 years maintenance experience in the Air Force/Guard. There are exceptions, but you will be hard pressed. Maybe try to focus on becoming a loadmaster, from what you posted I have definitely seen many with your background get selected. Yes, if you are a Federal Employee they have to keep your job while you attend training. Hope this helps, good luck!

[ 28. June 2006, 00:08: Message edited by: TheBurt ]

[Guest Fairford]

Which AF aircraft still require or have flight engineers assigned to them , and which ones still will in the future. Just curious.

[HeloDude]

All helicopters use flight engineers...and believe me, I'm VERY glad to have them.

[Mambo]

C-130's (Minus the J model), C-5's, KC-10's, CV-22, E-3, not sure about JSTARS. I think we'll be around for awhile.

[Guest Hydro130]

All non J-model Herks (slicks and spooks) still have FEs, they'll be around for a while, no worries.

I, too, was uber happy to have both a nav and an FE. I'm sure the J is cool and all, but I'd take my crappy coffee-grinder ADF, clock-to-map-to-ground, and foul-mouthed FE and grumpy-@ss Nav anytime over a J-model... Any day at all!

But that's old-school talking and I'm out now, so you youngings have a nut with all that new-fangled boon-dogglery....

Hydro

EDIT: I corrected one spelling mistake; I just made up the rest of the words....

[ 21. June 2006, 17:30: Message edited by: Hydro130 ]

[JG130fe]

I agree with TB. Not a slam on loads but it will be harder to get picked up as a fixed wing FE without any Aircraft MX experience. The exception would be if you have a civilian A&P or a civilian pilot’s license. Some guys I know with a break in service like yours joined as a crew chief for a few years, got to know the airplane and the crews and then applied for and got hired as a FE. So basically, do the MX thing first. You will be glad that you did in the end especially if your end goal is to be a FE. It is possible to still become a FE, but not right away. Good luck! JG

[ 25. June 2006, 00:24: Message edited by: JG130fe ]

[Guest jaybird141]

JSTARS does, also G-5, G-4, G-3 (used to be flight mechanics, now FE's) also the E-4. Word is that the Osprey will have an FE as well.

[Mambo]

Originally posted by Jay:

Word is that the Osprey will have an FE as well.

Yes the Osprey (CV-22) does have an FE.

[abmwaldo]

add AWACS to that list

[Mambo]

Originally posted by abmwaldo:

add AWACS to that list

C-130's (Minus the J model), C-5's, KC-10's, CV-22, E-3, not sure about JSTARS. I think we'll be around for awhile.

What do you think an E-3 is??? Damn goats...

[Guest danatori]

I'm a SSgt stationed at Ramstein. I'm looking to retrain into the FE career field. I just have a few questions maybe some of you can help me out with.

I've heard FE's don't come straight out of Basic Training but are retrainees from other career fields. What careers have you had before becoming a FE?

What is the deployment rate and does your career field effect family life?

Are you able to take classes/college courses?

What are your likes and dislikes about being a FE?

What is the Enlisted Aircrew Undergraduate Course?

What was Combat Survival School like?

What was Tech School like for your airframe?

Was there a high washout rate for any of these schools?

Do FE's get to choose wether to work on fixed wing or helos, or is this assigned based on AF needs?

I would just like some input from everybody AB thru CMSgt on the 1A1X1 career field.

AFPC told me I qualify for the job and I just took my Flight Physical a few days ago. Any information you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

-SSgt Young

[Guest Boom]

I've heard FE's don't come straight out of Basic Training but are retrainees from other career fields.

Fixed wing FE's (KC-10's, C-130's, E-3's, etc) are. They come from "feeder" AFSC's like Maintenance, Missile Maintenance, Vehicle Maintenance, etc. You can get a waiver if you don't come out of a feeder careerfield. Helo's as of last year when I retrained you can come straight into as a new Airman. I have a Airman Basic in my Enlisted Undergraduate Aircrew Course (EAUC) at Lackland who was going to be a helo Engineer.

What careers have you had before becoming a FE?

N/A I'm a Boom. But had Engineers in my last squadron (C-130's) and they loved their jobs. Except with the pending doom of the J-Model coming.

What is the deployment rate and does your career field effect family life?

Depends on your airframe. But it's pretty much set in stone you'll be deployed alot no matter what airframe you pick.

Are you able to take classes/college courses?

Alot of Engineers already have their bachelors degree and I knew one with a masters. Just took alot of time obtaining around deployments, TDY's, schools, etc.

What are your likes and dislikes about being a FE?

I'm not a Engineer but they are phasing them out. That probably would be one dislike.

What is the Enlisted Aircrew Undergraduate Course?

It's a course designed to washout new Airmen who probably wouldn't hack it trying to be a Enlisted flyer. So before the AF spends big money on them to go through training they go there. As a retrainee you'll be extremely bored learning what the difference is between a C-130 and a KC-135.

What was Combat Survival School like?

You go hiking in the woods, then you get caught. Everyone gets caught.

What was Tech School like for your airframe?

I know you go to wonderful Altus AFB for Basic Flight Engineer school, then your airframe's FTU after that if you're fixed wing. Dunno about helos.

Was there a high washout rate for any of these schools?

?

Do FE's get to choose wether to work on fixed wing or helos, or is this assigned based on AF needs?

When you retrain you put down the AFSC's you want then you put down the bases you want to go to. You'll find out your base before you start retraining. And actually since you're overseas you'll PCS to your incoming base before you even retraining as an Engineer. I found out I was going to be a KC-135 Boom before I even started retraining.

Mambo's a C-130 slick Engineer. I'm sure he'll chime in.

[Mambo]

Boom beat me to alot of the questions, but since I already typed them out here ya' go....

I've heard FE's don't come straight out of Basic Training but are retrainees from other career fields. What careers have you had before becoming a FE?

This is true for the most part. They did put a few guys through the FE pipeline straight out of Basic (fixed wing), but 99% are retrainees. Most FE's have a maintainence AFSC background. There are waivers for everything though and I've met FE's that were prior POL, cops, medical and admin guys.

What is the deployment rate and does your career field effect family life?

Depends. Different airframes have different deployment rates. C-130 guys don't fall into the typical AEF rotation and are deploying to the AOR quite often, roughly 4 months there and 8-12 months home. KC-10 and C-5 guys are home more often but are out on the road for weeks at a time. Helo's and AFSOC guys deploy quite often also. AWACS...not much lately.

Family life is the same as any other career field that deploys...if you have a strong marriage then it is the standard stuff. For those of us that are Mil to Mil it is a little tougher when your spouse is deployed and you have to juggle work, flying, kids ect...but it can be done.

What are your likes and dislikes about being a FE?

Likes: Working with some very professional dudes. Being part of a crew and working together to get the job done is a great feeling. And no matter what anyone else tells you, when you put a flight suit on, you are treated a little differently (whether better or worse depends, but mostly better). When you go TDY you are travelling with officers and they like to stay at nice hotels and know how to party.

Dislikes: Nothing big enough to list here...you know the standard stuff, deployments, additional duties ect. We're not being phased out too quickly though, but the writing is on the wall. It will be many years before we are gone because they still have to replace the KC-10, AWACS, C-5, C-130's and helo's. Oh, the Osprey has 2 FE's, so they'll be around for awhile.

What is the Enlisted Aircrew Undergraduate Course?

2 week class down at Lackland where they teach you about being in the Enlisted Aircrew career field. Learn about airplanes and 781 forms and career path stuff. If you are coming out of maintenence then it will be pretty easy (good opportunity to party).

What was Combat Survival School like?

A blast. Search this forum...I think there are a few threads about survival school. Down and dirty...2 weeks of classroom, hiking in the woods, learning really cool stuff and playing POW.

What was Tech School like for your airframe? Was there a high washout rate for any of these schools?

Basic Flight Engineer course. 6 weeks at Altus where you will learn basic aircraft systems and theory, takeoff and landing data, forms, weight and balance. A long time ago this used to have a high washout rate but with the shortage of FE's that is no longer the case. I'm not saying they made it easier but they give you every opportunity to get through it. At the FTU course you might get 1 or 2 that wash out either in the sim phase or the flying phase. Flying isn't for everyone and this is where they find that out.

After BFE you'll go to your particular airframe schoolhouse. Herks are here at Little Rock. AWACS is Tinker, C-5's at Altus, KC-10's I think is at Maquire. Lenght of course depends on airframe. Herk one is 3 months at the schoolhouse and then a month in one of the training squadrons where you will fly with an instructor.

Do FE's get to choose wether to work on fixed wing or helos, or is this assigned based on AF needs?

You can contact our functional at Randolph and tell him what you'd like to go to, although as always, needs of the AF come first. But they are pretty good with working with you to get what you want.

PM me and I can try to answer any more questions for ya'. Overall I'd say it's one of the best career fields in the Air Force for an enlisted guy.

[JarheadBoom]

I've heard FE's don't come straight out of Basic Training but are retrainees from other career fields.

I'm a KC-10 boom student in the FTU. FWIW, we had 4 FE Initial Qual students in the FTU a couple weeks ago; 2 re-trains and 2 straight outta Basic. Can't speak for Travis, or the other airframes...

I can say that after 12 total years in the military (11 USMC, 1 USAF so far), aircrew jobs are are the best deal out there for us enlisted folk.