The WOKE Thread (Merged from WTF?)

[tac airlifter]

Not sure where else to post this.  WTF is going on with law enforcement?

[di1630]

Yeah, it is.  Poor taste would be putting it mildly.

Can’t even tell if this is sarcasm.

I was accused of ruining someone’s night the other day because she was soooooo upset I dare foster a different viewpoint.

Imagine if I was trying to start shit. America needs to toughen up.




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[slackline]

Nothing to do with toughen up. America needs to do away with systemic racism. Period. Dot.

Things about MLK not rioting are missing the point. Rioters are stupid, but the majority of people are peacefully protesting. White people love to dismiss the actions of racist bigots as not representative of the majority, but are quick to accuse an entire race of being guilty of something when it fits their narrative.

I’m a white guy.


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[busdriver]

The issues at hand are far more complicated than a simplistic and overly broad platitude. 

But thoughtful, nuanced discussions don't work with the advertising model and no one's righteous indignation fix will be met when it turns out that everyone is to blame.

[Ryder1587]

I think a big part to blame is the media and social media.  Everyone thinks that their Facebook post is going to change the world and the more likes you get the more right you are. It seems also we have transitioned that the most emotional or loudest person is the most correct. It’s all BS. 
I am tired of the Us vs Them mentality for literally everything.  Why can’t we all just treat each other with respect and dignity?  
 

granted, things can always improve.  And they always have.  I would much rather live today versus 250 years ago. But do we always have to act like the world is ending to make things better ?  What is burning down buildings going to do ?  Do you think someone with an opposite viewpoint is going to listen to you when after you offend them?

People need to relearn how to listen to other viewpoints and respect them even if you disagree. I’m not saying that America doesn’t need to change.  It does. But we can do it in a respectful way. Rant over. 

[slackline]

There are definitely people that are trying to take advantage, reacting in unproductive ways, and twisting factual events out there. That doesn’t change the fact that black people suffer dramatically higher rates of harassment, abuse, and die at the hands of those that have the responsibility to serve and protect.

 

No one, set firmly in their own camp, will be convinced by someone set in the other camp. So, I guess I’m not speaking to those people. I’m speaking to those willing to admit change needs to happen on a much grander scale than, “yeah, things could be better, but at least it’s better than 250 years ago...”

 

I saw a quote from Benjamin Franklin that is appropriate: “Justice will not be served until those who are unaffected are as outraged as those who are.” As a white guy I’ve never had to discuss how to interact with the police if they have the misfortune of being pulled over, or talked to in the street. Most of our white kids will never be pulled over. Every single person of color I know has had to have the talk with their children because through their own experiences they know their children will have those same experiences. Probably multiple times in their lives.

 

I’m sure you’ve heard about the white lady in Central Park with her off leash dog. Yeah, she may be just the one person who is racist, and most people aren’t. Problem is, she knows if she calls the cops and says an AA man is threatening her life chances are good that dude is going to have a bad day... That’s systemic. That’s a problem that needs changing immediately. Say whatever you want about this whole situation, but the facts don’t lie. Black men die at the hands of police way more than white men.

 

Are the majority of cops racist? No way! Do the non racist cops share any of the blame for this? In my opinion (worthless I know) they do if they never stand up to say it needs to stop. They know who the racist dudes in their departments are, just like you know who the racist dudes in your squadrons are. It is time we speak up each and every time to finally let people know it will never be tolerated.

 

It’s not Us vs Them. We should be united in this!

 

 

Edited to add: We share in the blame too if we’re silent. Not just the cops. We need to hold each other accountable.

 

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[kaputt]

6 hours ago, slackline said:

Nothing to do with toughen up. America needs to do away with systemic racism. Period. Dot.
 

What is happening now in major cities across this country has nothing to do with racism or George Floyd anymore. 
 

Anarchy and a hatred of certain aspects of America would be more accurate now. 
 

Token caveat that I hate that I have to do: the cop who kneeled on George Floyd deserved to be arrested and charged with murder. That was wrong on all levels. But that cause has been destroyed now. 

[di1630]

The problem is that we now call every time a black persons is killed by a White person = racism.

I saw a shitty cop doing shitty work and someone needlessly died. I didn’t see a guy getting killed for his skin color.

But I got called a racist online because I asked why trump was being blamed.

Racism is an easy label to politicize therefore pushed by the media a lot.


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[HuggyU2]

https://ktxs.com/news/local/wanted-dyess-airman-captured

 

[Runr6730]

26 minutes ago, HuggyU2 said:

https://ktxs.com/news/local/wanted-dyess-airman-captured

 

37 years old and only an A1C, huh?

[Guardian]

Nothing to do with toughen up. America needs to do away with systemic racism. Period. Dot.

Things about MLK not rioting are missing the point. Rioters are stupid, but the majority of people are peacefully protesting. White people love to dismiss the actions of racist bigots as not representative of the majority, but are quick to accuse an entire race of being guilty of something when it fits their narrative.

I’m a white guy.


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Couldn’t disagree more on systematic racism, majority are peacefully protesting, and that blacks are targeted or harassed by the majority. If you would like to have a civil discourse, please bring facts, references and things to actually discuss not emotion and drama words without any examples.

[Guardian]

There are definitely people that are trying to take advantage, reacting in unproductive ways, and twisting factual events out there. That doesn’t change the fact that black people suffer dramatically higher rates of harassment, abuse, and die at the hands of those that have the responsibility to serve and protect.

 

No one, set firmly in their own camp, will be convinced by someone set in the other camp. So, I guess I’m not speaking to those people. I’m speaking to those willing to admit change needs to happen on a much grander scale than, “yeah, things could be better, but at least it’s better than 250 years ago...”

 

I saw a quote from Benjamin Franklin that is appropriate: “Justice will not be served until those who are unaffected are as outraged as those who are.” As a white guy I’ve never had to discuss how to interact with the police if they have the misfortune of being pulled over, or talked to in the street. Most of our white kids will never be pulled over. Every single person of color I know has had to have the talk with their children because through their own experiences they know their children will have those same experiences. Probably multiple times in their lives.

 

I’m sure you’ve heard about the white lady in Central Park with her off leash dog. Yeah, she may be just the one person who is racist, and most people aren’t. Problem is, she knows if she calls the cops and says an AA man is threatening her life chances are good that dude is going to have a bad day... That’s systemic. That’s a problem that needs changing immediately. Say whatever you want about this whole situation, but the facts don’t lie. Black men die at the hands of police way more than white men.

 

Are the majority of cops racist? No way! Do the non racist cops share any of the blame for this? In my opinion (worthless I know) they do if they never stand up to say it needs to stop. They know who the racist dudes in their departments are, just like you know who the racist dudes in your squadrons are. It is time we speak up each and every time to finally let people know it will never be tolerated.

 

It’s not Us vs Them. We should be united in this!

 

 

Edited to add: We share in the blame too if we’re silent. Not just the cops. We need to hold each other accountable.

 

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No one that I’m aware of is saying that this dude dying was ok or the police’s actions are okay. Glad to know you are only talking to those who admit change needs to happen. Sure. It does. But in what way does one persons death justify so many other deaths and tens of millions in useless damage?

 

I’m glad I support your right to spout whatever incoherent ideas you feel like. I probably shouldn’t even be responding to feed your emotional drama dopamine hits.

[herkbum]

Say whatever you want about this whole situation, but the facts don’t lie. Black men die at the hands of police way more than white men.  

 

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[/url]

 

From statista.com

2017 2018 2019 2020*

White 457 399 370 42

Black 223 209 235 31

Hispanic 179 148 158 13

Other 44 36 39 3

Unk. 84 204 202 139

 

George Floyd’s death is unacceptable and the cop needs to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. But what has happened the last few nights is not productive.

 

 

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[HAWDINGL]

What is happening now in major cities across this country has nothing to do with racism or George Floyd anymore. 
 
Anarchy and a hatred of certain aspects of America would be more accurate now. 
 
Token caveat that I hate that I have to do: the cop who kneeled on George Floyd deserved to be arrested and charged with murder. That was wrong on all levels. But that cause has been destroyed now. 

Cop(s) deserved to be investigated, and based upon ALL the facts (which none of us are privy to), arrested and charged or not arrested/charged. That’s how justice works.

There are multiple sides to every story, and right now all we have are partial video accounts. I’d certainly be interested in seeing all the body camera footage if it is ever released.

The unfortunate reality in today’s America is that any high profile cases will be tried in the media courtroom long before the accused ever sees his/her day in actual court. The rules don’t apply and you are not innocent until proven guilty.

Not saying the cop was in the right, just saying I’d prefer our justice system (though not perfect) over mob justice.


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[waveshaper]

"One Man Shot Dead As Police and National Guard Open Fire During Louisville Protests"

https://time.com/5845972/man-shot-louisville-protests/

[FLEA]

2 hours ago, Guardian said:

 

Couldn’t disagree more on systematic racism, majority are peacefully protesting, and that blacks are targeted or harassed by the majority. If you would like to have a civil discourse, please bring facts, references and things to actually discuss not emotion and drama words without any examples.

 

One thing a lot of people don't recognize is systematic and institutional racism can exist without there actually being a racist. If you immagine society as a big gumball machine, and you pour all the gumballs in at the top, they should come out proportional. If your gumball machine starts segregating blue gumballs, there is a problem in the machine and a cog is broke. Society is supposed to be uniformed and not look at color. That cog may not have been put there intentionally. Or maybe it was left from people long ago who placed it with the wrong reasons. It may have been placed there to solve a differt problem and unintentionally created the problem we now have. All of this doesn't neccessarily mean the people entrusted to maintain the machine are racist. It does mean the machine is discriminatory and does need looked at, the cog identified, and machined to the point it no longer seperates blue gumballs when performing it's function. 

[Guardian]

Facts please. I like your analogy. But need facts to back it. What about the fact that most major crimes are committed by minorities you claim are being persecuted? If it talks, walks, smells, etc like a duck then it’s likely a duck. And you can associate that with other ducks. Everyone profiles. It’s when the profiling turns to an irrational response or trigger that’s bad.

[Guardian]

Facts please. I like your analogy. But need facts to back it. What about the fact that most major crimes are committed by minorities you claim are being persecuted? If it talks, walks, smells, etc like a duck then it’s likely a duck. And you can associate that with other ducks. Everyone profiles. It’s when the profiling turns to an irrational response or trigger that’s bad.

 

How many major crimes are being done right now by these same minorities during all of this that will never be recorded into statistics because of the mob getting away with everything. It’s pretty sick.

 

 

Everyone agrees:

Murder = Bad

Police brutality or abuse of power = bad

Racism = bad

 

But if you attribute all of this to the White man keeping the black man down without critical analysis of the facts then you are making things worse and stoking a fire that shouldn’t be. Or saying that the cop did what he did to George’s neck because he was racist before any facts or evidence come out and riots happen because of it, then the truth isn’t what you are after.

 

[FLEA]

1 hour ago, Guardian said:

Facts please. I like your analogy. But need facts to back it. What about the fact that most major crimes are committed by minorities you claim are being persecuted? If it talks, walks, smells, etc like a duck then it’s likely a duck. And you can associate that with other ducks. Everyone profiles. It’s when the profiling turns to an irrational response or trigger that’s bad.

It's irrelevent. It's a moral/logical argument not a data driven one. Your point is blacks enter the criminal justice system more often then whites. My point is yes, that is evidence that society is segregating them. You have to look at it holistically. It doesn't necessarily mean there are people targeting blacks, but simply being born black does not make you more likely to commit crime. So there are outside institutional factors. For example, what socio-economic background are blacks being raised in? Are they accumulating wealth? Do they have access to the same attorneys? Do predominantly black neighborhoods have access to the same courts? Are they being tried by their peers or by middle class whites? Those are all hypothesis. But noone grows up saying "I want to rob convenience stores." Maybe casinos like in the movies but never 7/11s....like really? 

So your point is blacks commit more crime (which to be completely empiracle we need to say blacks are convicted of more crime because that's all we can really measure) and my point is, "ok, why? How is society influencing that?" Simply being black does not make you born a criminal, so what in the machine is influencing that? 

Those underlying root issues are what you want to identify and tackle. Things like affirmative action were well intentioned but poorly implemented at doing this. But it's complicated because there are a lot of problems. Access to education, access to wealth, access to family, etc... 

There's a lot more common ground on these issues than most people realise. Liberals normally hurt themselves with their choice of language though. That turns most conservatives away right off from even examining the complaints. By now you've probably seen Gen Slifes video on Facebook. I think he puts it brilliantly. You gave to trust there is a green triangle there, even if you can't see it. 

 

Edit: I also just wanted to say, like many, I was hugely skeptical of this once too. I took a course on diversity last fall through AETC that I was hugely skeptical of, however, it really opened up some thought trains I actually was on the same side of. As I said earlier, liberals have hurt themselves with the choice of words and labels they use for all of this. Only mentioning that because I know how frustrating it is to feel like people are talking last you. 

Edited June 1, 2020 by FLEA

[Guardian]

It's irrelevent. It's a moral/logical argument not a data driven one. Your point is blacks enter the criminal justice system more often then whites. My point is yes, that is evidence that society is segregating them. You have to look at it holistically. It doesn't necessarily mean there are people targeting blacks, but simply being born black does not make you more likely to commit crime. So there are outside institutional factors. For example, what socio-economic background are blacks being raised in? Are they accumulating wealth? Do they have access to the same attorneys? Do predominantly black neighborhoods have access to the same courts? Are they being tried by their peers or by middle class whites? Those are all hypothesis. But noone grows up saying "I want to rob convenience stores." Maybe casinos like in the movies but never 7/11s....like really? 

So your point is blacks commit more crime (which to be completely empiracle we need to say blacks are convicted of more crime because that's all we can really measure) and my point is, "ok, why? How is society influencing that?" Simply being black does not make you born a criminal, so what in the machine is influencing that? 

Those underlying root issues are what you want to identify and tackle. Things like affirmative action were well intentioned but poorly implemented at doing this. But it's complicated because there are a lot of problems. Access to education, access to wealth, access to family, etc... 

There's a lot more common ground on these issues than most people realise. Liberals normally hurt themselves with their choice of language though. That turns most conservatives away right off from even examining the complaints. By now you've probably seen Gen Slifes video on Facebook. I think he puts it brilliantly. You gave to trust there is a green triangle there, even if you can't see it. 

 

Edit: I also just wanted to say, like many, I was hugely skeptical of this once too. I took a course on diversity last fall through AETC that I was hugely skeptical of, however, it really opened up some thought trains I actually was on the same side of. As I said earlier, liberals have hurt themselves with the choice of words and labels they use for all of this. Only mentioning that because I know how frustrating it is to feel like people are talking last you. 

So AETC is teaching people how not to take stock of their world and succeed in-spite of it? To be a victim and blame others and society?

 

That’s a big reason all of this exists. Everyone’s a victim Flea? You are your decision? You don’t have money? It’s because you didn’t work for it or save what you did get not because the man is keeping you down. Don’t sink to that cop out mentality. It’s flat wrong. No one will get ahead of their own woes thinking like that. Everyone’s life has unique struggles that we have to overcome. It’s what you do that makes you who you are not what you let happen to you. If I was to go off what you are saying, then you are saying no black person should ever get ahead because society is built that way. That’s super racist man. Really.

 

Let’s hope that the Air Force isn’t teaching that.

[FLEA]

16 minutes ago, Guardian said:

So AETC is teaching people how not to take stock of their world and succeed in-spite of it? To be a victim and blame others and society?

That’s a big reason all of this exists. Everyone’s a victim Flea? You are your decision? You don’t have money? It’s because you didn’t work for it or save what you did get not because the man is keeping you down. Don’t sink to that cop out mentality. It’s flat wrong. No one will get ahead of their own woes thinking like that. Everyone’s life has unique struggles that we have to overcome. It’s what you do that makes you who you are not what you let happen to you. If I was to go off what you are saying, then you are saying no black person should ever get ahead because society is built that way. That’s super racist man. Really.

Dude I'm not really sure how you got any of that out of what I said? I want to respond but I don't even know how you arrived at your conclusions. 

[FLEA]

Let me try this the other direction using the criminal justice example. 

 

Why do you think blacks disproportionately end up in the criminal justice system more than whites? If your answer is anything to do with anything outside the idea that the color of your skin simply makes you more likely to commit crime, we are probably in agreement on most everything. Hopefully your answer is the former, otherwise we probably don't really need you in the AF. 

Edited June 1, 2020 by FLEA

[Guardian]

Haha. In what way based on my posts did you come to the conclusion that I would say black people end up in jail more because their black? Don’t think you read what I said above.

I came to my conclusion in response to your post based off the things you said.

1st paragraph. Data and logic aren’t the same argument. You said people going to jail is society segregating blacks (not because they’ve been convicted of a crime). So what does that mean when it’s a white guy going to jail? Or Mexican or Asian? Then you blame people’s decisions to commit crime on socio-economic back ground. Which is near laughable. Why do peers have to have white or black skin? Skin color isn’t an indicator for peers. (That’s pretty bad statement coming from you). Being in this country is. Or in a particular community that the crime may have happened. How do you know that no one grows up saying they want to rob? I think that argument from what you feel not what others actually say or do (because you haven’t provided data or reference to logical rationalize with). “Like Really?....”. Is that even an argument?

2nd paragraph How’s society influencing people to commit crimes? That’s what you ask. Instead of helping people take responsibility for their actions or teaching them that in the first place. Then let’s never take the blame ourselves. It has to be someone else’s fault. It’s society! That creates a victim mentality.

3rd paragraph. Sure. If such societal issues existed I would want to tackle them. So far you haven’t really explained or given evidence of what those are. And even if they did exist, it doesn’t give people free reign to commit crimes then blame it on society or skin color that you were born with.

No idea what your reference to Gen Slifes means. Would like to know what you are inferring from his speech.

Yes. I think this mentality and position that you have taken up is at the heart of what’s wrong with society and it seems now is creeping into the Air Force. Really really sad future these liberal victim mindset mentalities are taking us towards. This mentality is what keeps people down and tells them it’s ok to be down. It’s very Sick. I hope you go back to your previous mentality Flea. For your own good. And maybe those affected by you as well.

Again. My conclusions are directly in response to the things you have stated here.

[Guardian]

Let me try this the other direction using the criminal justice example. 
 
Why do you think blacks disproportionately end up in the criminal justice system more than whites? If your answer is anything to do with anything outside the idea that the color of your skin simply makes you more likely to commit crime, we are probably in agreement on most everything. Hopefully your answer is the former, otherwise we probably don't really need you in the AF. 

To directly answer your question. They end up in the criminal justice system more because they commit more crime.

[slackline]

Facts please. I like your analogy. But need facts to back it. What about the fact that most major crimes are committed by minorities you claim are being persecuted? If it talks, walks, smells, etc like a duck then it’s likely a duck. And you can associate that with other ducks. Everyone profiles. It’s when the profiling turns to an irrational response or trigger that’s bad.
 
How many major crimes are being done right now by these same minorities during all of this that will never be recorded into statistics because of the mob getting away with everything. It’s pretty sick.
 
 
Everyone agrees:
Murder = Bad
Police brutality or abuse of power = bad
Racism = bad
 
But if you attribute all of this to the White man keeping the black man down without critical analysis of the facts then you are making things worse and stoking a fire that shouldn’t be. Or saying that the cop did what he did to George’s neck because he was racist before any facts or evidence come out and riots happen because of it, then the truth isn’t what you are after.
 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/opinions/wp/2018/09/18/theres-overwhelming-evidence-that-the-criminal-justice-system-is-racist-heres-the-proof/

First off, there was zero emotion in anything I’ve posted, so I’m not sure where that argument is coming from. I will say, however, that isn’t it about time we do get emotional about this while supporting it with facts? This isn’t a joke. We’re kidding ourselves if we think emotion doesn’t play a part in this. You appear to be incredibly agitated from atop your perceived moral high ground even though your posts are equally guilty of making statements without backing them up. Pot, kettle...

Second, you say “show me the data” as if that exonerates you from doing the same thing, or ends the argument.

Third, I’ve always voted conservative, so if you’re holding onto the idea that I’m some liberal democrat trying to destroy the right, that is incorrect.

Fourth, that article I just posted has links to study after study supporting both sides. The author opens it up saying “systemic racism is not equal to racist people running the system.” You provided one tiny sliver of studies showing white people are killed more than black people by police.

Claim the author is Uber liberal all you want, but he does a fairly thorough job of presenting evidentiary facts to support the following topics: Policing and profiling | Misdemeanors, petty crimes and driver’s license suspensions | The drug war | Juries and jury selection | The death penalty | Prosecutors, discretion and plea bargaining | Judges and sentencing | School suspensions and the school-to-prison pipeline | Prison, incarceration and solitary confinement | Bail, pretrial detention, commutations and pardons, gangs and other issues | The dissent — contrarian studies on race and the criminal-justice system

The article gives you hyperlinks to be able to jump to each individual section, and in each individual section the smallest quantity of studies presented number 3 with most having many more than 10.

Once again, no emotion in anything I’ve presented. Simple statement that we need to stand up and push for change now. Tons of evidence here. I’m sure you’ll immediately discount it though based on your blatant refusal to even acknowledge the possibility that there may be problems in the system.


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