The WOKE Thread (Merged from WTF?)

[Guardian]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/opinions/wp/2018/09/18/theres-overwhelming-evidence-that-the-criminal-justice-system-is-racist-heres-the-proof/

 

First off, there was zero emotion in anything I’ve posted, so I’m not sure where that argument is coming from. I will say, however, that isn’t it about time we do get emotional about this while supporting it with facts? This isn’t a joke. We’re kidding ourselves if we think emotion doesn’t play a part in this. You appear to be incredibly agitated from atop your perceived moral high ground even though your posts are equally guilty of making statements without backing them up. Pot, kettle...

 

Second, you say “show me the data” as if that exonerates you from doing the same thing, or ends the argument.

 

Third, I’ve always voted conservative, so if you’re holding onto the idea that I’m some liberal democrat trying to destroy the right, that is incorrect.

 

Fourth, that article I just posted has links to study after study supporting both sides. The author opens it up saying “systemic racism is not equal to racist people running the system.” You provided one tiny sliver of studies showing white people are killed more than black people by police.

 

Claim the author is Uber liberal all you want, but he does a fairly thorough job of presenting evidentiary facts to support the following topics: Policing and profiling | Misdemeanors, petty crimes and driver’s license suspensions | The drug war | Juries and jury selection | The death penalty | Prosecutors, discretion and plea bargaining | Judges and sentencing | School suspensions and the school-to-prison pipeline | Prison, incarceration and solitary confinement | Bail, pretrial detention, commutations and pardons, gangs and other issues | The dissent — contrarian studies on race and the criminal-justice system

 

The article gives you hyperlinks to be able to jump to each individual section, and in each individual section the smallest quantity of studies presented number 3 with most having many more than 10.

 

Once again, no emotion in anything I’ve presented. Simple statement that we need to stand up and push for change now. Tons of evidence here. I’m sure you’ll immediately discount it though based on your blatant refusal to even acknowledge the possibility that there may be problems in the system.

 

 

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I’ll give it a fair shake and read and get back to you. It is an op ed though.....from WaPo....

 

1st paragraph. Never said, you, slack line are emotional. So you claiming I did is disingenuous. But then you go on to say we are kidding ourselves if we don’t think emotion has a place. Do you or don’t you?

 

2nd. Burden of proof is on you to prove your claims with data and examples. Hence what I said in my response. What statement or opinion of mine would you like me to back up?

 

3rd. You assume I have some secret thought that you are a liberal then waste a paragraph on how that’s wrong? Let me put it another way. You made up an assumption then carried out a made up narrative based on something in your own mind? That’s just weird.

 

4th. I provided no such data. That was someone else. I have trouble wanting to discuss things with you if you can’t get basics of who said what correct.

 

No emotion? But I thought you said “We’re kidding ourselves if we think emotion doesn’t play a part in this.”

 

Are you just responding to me and lumping everyone statements that doesn’t agree with you in? Kinda weird way to conduct a discourse. No one is on any moral high ground. It’s evident that when you over and over revert to personal attacks as justification that your point is right that you have absolutely no emotion in this (hopefully you can read into the sarcasm of that statement). And if I don’t agree with you here are some things wrong with me so you don’t have to critically think because it’s me that’s got an emotional bad attitude. (Again, sarcasm)

 

Again. I will go back and read later. In the mean time, if what you say is true, what is to be done about it? Also do you think that if there is stuff like you claim going on that people wouldn’t band together to stop it? Not riots but legitimately stopping it. And you claim there aren’t racist people at the tops just racist systems and organizations. So what does that say about them? They are intentionally looking the other way and allowing racism? Or that after reaching such a high position they don’t have the intelligence or ability and aren’t able to recognize?

 

I don’t get that. But if you could explain it I would like to listen.

[Guardian]

So I guess I’m the A$$hole then

[FLEA]

1 hour ago, Guardian said:

To directly answer your question. They end up in the criminal justice system more because they commit more crime.

Ok. So you have a hypothesis. Now take it a step further. Why are they comitting more crime? Does something about your skin being black make you commit more crime? No. So they must be subject to conditions that predispose them to choose that path over people who don't grow up under the same conditions. Black people don't just choose to commit more crime because they came together and said "hey let's beat out whites on doing more crime." So why? What would drive you to crime? 

[Guardian]

Ok. So you have a hypothesis. Now take it a step further. Why are they comitting more crime? Does something about your skin being black make you commit more crime? No. So they must be subject to conditions that predispose them to choose that path over people who don't grow up under the same conditions. Black people don't just choose to commit more crime because they came together and said "hey let's beat out whites on doing more crime." So why? What would drive you to crime? 

See? You’re making them a victim and blaming it on others. It’s not your parents fault who you are. It isn’t the city you grew up in’s fault. At least after a certain age anyways. Kids are still responsible for their actions. Just less so than adults and that is reflected in the system as well.

What would drive me to crime? I intentionally choose not to commit crime every day. So I don’t really know how to answer your question. It’s odd.

Could you please confirm that what I understand you saying is if people commit a crime and they are of a certain ethnicity then that crime might not be their fault? Is that what I am understanding?

[DirkDiggler]

17 hours ago, di1630 said:

The problem is that we now call every time a black persons is killed by a White person = racism.

I saw a shitty cop doing shitty work and someone needlessly died. I didn’t see a guy getting killed for his skin color.

But I got called a racist online because I asked why trump was being blamed.

Racism is an easy label to politicize therefore pushed by the media a lot.


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To answer your earlier question of whether my previous post was sarcasm, no, it wasn't.  I don't find anything funny about Floyd's brutal death, just as I don't find anything funny about multiple business owners' seeing their livelihood go up in flames, thus since Brick asked, I thought the post in poor taste.  I don't think it's an indication that I (or the rest of the AF for the matter), needs to toughen up on the subject.

  I didn't mean for my post to derail this thread, even though I feel the current situation in our country definitely belongs in a WTF thread.  Nor do I think your a racist for saying POTUS shouldn't be blamed. 

  I don't think an internet forum is going to overnight change people's minds on this subject, from some of the posts for the last two pages people have some pretty strong feelings on this topic, which is understandable.  One of the things I think has been missing in our country lately is a lack of willingness to listen or try to understand problems from other points of view.  I'm willing to listen to viewpoints contrary to my own views even if some of them I disagree with pretty vehemently, but that's ok, because not everyone is going to agree all the time. 

I would like to emphasize the second bullet in your post above.  I'm assuming you're white (if I'm wrong feel free to correct me).  I'd ask that you take a minute and think about what a lot of black people saw when they watched George Floyd's death, especially in a city with a history of racial covenants in it's housing.  Coming on the heels of the Central Park incident in NYC and Arbery killing in Georgia (and multiple others too long to list here).  Whether we as American's like to admit it or discuss it, the American Experience/Dream isn't equal for everyone in this country.  Even among us in the military, people part the 1%, I have friends who've experienced systemic racism during certain parts of their lives.  From my buddy who volunteered to go to Minot because of how he was treated by the locals in Barksdale, to an Army colleague at ACSC who said as black man there were areas around his postings in the South that he didn't dare go to, not because of crime in the area, but because of the color of his skin, to a loadmaster buddy who's had to explain to his young daughters that they need to be careful when interacting with the police because there's a good chance they'll be treated differently (based on his life experiences).

If you have 5 minutes, I'd encourage you to read the recent posting made by the AFSOC/CC on FB here https://www.facebook.com/COMAFSOCOfficial  I don't agree with everything Gen. Slife says or does (I definitely didn't agree with his leadership style when he was a Group and Wing Commander) but he was spot on with his post about George Floyd's death.

It wasn't too long ago (~60 years) that Martin Luther King and Civil Rights movement had to fight for equal rights in America, so that the black people in your squadron can drink from the same water fountain, use the same bathroom, and sit in the same part of the bus that the white members in your squadron can.  Anyone who thinks that the previous 200+ years of institutionalized racism in the US was wiped out overnight is kidding themselves.  Large scale changes in society take time, right now there's a large majority (from what I see based on my friends, colleagues, and statements by public figures) that feel that change isn't happening quickly enough, or in some cases is going the opposite direction.          

[slackline]

I’ll give it a fair shake and read and get back to you. It is an op ed though.....from WaPo....
 
1st paragraph. Never said, you, slack line are emotional. So you claiming I did is disingenuous. But then you go on to say we are kidding ourselves if we don’t think emotion has a place. Do you or don’t you?
 
2nd. Burden of proof is on you to prove your claims with data and examples. Hence what I said in my response. What statement or opinion of mine would you like me to back up?
 
3rd. You assume I have some secret thought that you are a liberal then waste a paragraph on how that’s wrong? Let me put it another way. You made up an assumption then carried out a made up narrative based on something in your own mind? That’s just weird.
 
4th. I provided no such data. That was someone else. I have trouble wanting to discuss things with you if you can’t get basics of who said what correct.
 
No emotion? But I thought you said “We’re kidding ourselves if we think emotion doesn’t play a part in this.”
 
Are you just responding to me and lumping everyone statements that doesn’t agree with you in? Kinda weird way to conduct a discourse. No one is on any moral high ground. It’s evident that when you over and over revert to personal attacks as justification that your point is right that you have absolutely no emotion in this (hopefully you can read into the sarcasm of that statement). And if I don’t agree with you here are some things wrong with me so you don’t have to critically think because it’s me that’s got an emotional bad attitude. (Again, sarcasm)
 
Again. I will go back and read later. In the mean time, if what you say is true, what is to be done about it? Also do you think that if there is stuff like you claim going on that people wouldn’t band together to stop it? Not riots but legitimately stopping it. And you claim there aren’t racist people at the tops just racist systems and organizations. So what does that say about them? They are intentionally looking the other way and allowing racism? Or that after reaching such a high position they don’t have the intelligence or ability and aren’t able to recognize?
 
I don’t get that. But if you could explain it I would like to listen.

I hesitated to use that article because it was from WaPo, but I decided to go with it based on the merits of the article itself, and its apparent presentation of all sides.

1st-My point on emotion is that I am not using it to make/deliver my position. That being said, I absolutely believe an emotional investment to this topic is needed. Emotional attachment does not negate a fact based argument.

2nd-Evidence provided. I apologize for not providing it upfront. I believe anyone who is a critical thinker should be able to, with .01 seconds be able to find countless articles backing up everything, so I admit to being guilty of not providing the evidence up front.

3rd-The tone of your posts, and even the use of the word “liberal” makes it an easy inference that you are applying that logic to anyone who disagrees with your position. No stretch by any means.

4th-I used the words “high moral ground” (sarcasm intended) because of statements you make like this. Your condescension is clear when you act holier than thou because of a simple error in attribution. I did not realize we were in a LD debate where scores mattered.

Again, I’m not using emotion in anything I’ve posted. Your highly sarcastic statements, tendency to claim superiority (i.e. many comments like “that’s just weird”, “i have trouble wanting... if you can’t get the basics... correct”, “kinda weird way...”). Your statements do not enhance or improve your side, but imply superiority. Based on how you have replied to everything else, this paragraph will be dismissed out of hand, again, with a snide remark or sarcastic question.

Please show me any personal attacks I have made outside of where I said you “appear to be incredibly agitated.” If that was taken as a personal attack, I apologize. Making a statement about my perception of how you appear to be agitated does not meet the standards of a personal attack unless that standard has changed...

I’m glad you say you’ll give it a fair shake. That’s all anyone can hope for. Maybe you agree, maybe you don’t.

As for what do I suggest, I think this is exactly what needs to happen. Civil discussion that highlights the issues, both sides. If we can discuss things without resorting to real personal attacks, neither argument/position should be dismissed out of hand. If we can discuss it, we can be aware of the potential pitfalls out there that we may not know about now.

I did not claim there are no racist people at the top. I mentioned how the author of the article says that a system can be biased/racist without having intentionally racist people in control. I stand by that. An individual can be ignorant (not the negative connotation of ignorant) of what is happening, and think everything is okay. Take FLEA’s point about socio-economic situations. For argument’s sake, let’s say he is correct. If I’m not mistaken, your current position is that people should be able to extract them from their origins and make something of themselves regardless. Absolutely a valid point. Many have done exactly that.

That does not negate the fact that it is substantially more difficult for someone in that situation to do it than, say, a middle-class white kid who played rec soccer, was in a class where they didn’t ever worry about gangs, etc. Remember, we’re pretending FLEA’s premise is accurate.

Someone who was ignorant of the difficulties faced by minorities might not see that they are presented with drastically different life choices at every step of their life. Much harder to make good choices with maybe an addict mother, absent father, living in the projects. Go to school or join a gang to 1-provide protection from other gangs 2-get a sense of family they don’t get at home 3- earn money to support themselves or younger siblings because their parents didn’t make good life choices 4-many other things.

That kid is much more likely to end up in the system than that white kid. Cops are much more likely to think that kid is guilty of doing something than the white kid. He’s much more likely to get stopped, then annoyed because it’s the 8th time he’s been stopped that month. Then he’s more than a little frustrated and gives more attitude than he should. Then he gets arrested. White kid, if he does get stopped at all, isn’t annoyed, listens to the officer, and then moves on his way.

None of that excuses the black kid’s actions, but it should shed some light on why he feels that way. I’m not perfect, so I know I’d lose my temper eventually.

Ignoring that life is more difficult for people of color doesn’t make it any less true. If you need evidence for that, ref my earlier post with a ton of studies demonstrating what I’m talking about plus a bunch of other scenarios.

Having been in leadership positions, I know I have been ignorant of things going on beneath my level. Maybe I’m just the only one to ever have been guilty of that. I doubt it.

Lastly, I typically hate these internet arguments. They are largely pointless, but I feel like we are now at that point where it is so important to have the discussion. Even if one person is swayed, and everyone else thinks I’m just a crazy person, I’ll be happy with that. I appreciate you engaging.


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[pbar]

We will never get past race in this country unfortunately.  Too many people on both sides (for example,  David Duke and Al Sharpton) make a very lucrative living stirring up racial animus...

[brickhistory]

I'll admit my squirrel quip was in poor taste which why I liked diggler's post.  I'll own what I wrote.  I still thought it was funny, however...

 

As to the, to me, pointless conversation about race:  best I can do is treat people like I want to be treated.  The ol' Golden Rule.

Dang it, that's probably metallism or something, so I need to be re-educated.

Meanwhile, if somebody is polite to me, I will respond the same or even initiate politeness.  If someone is a douche to me, that is not a skin color, that is a character flaw.

I don't take responsibility for anyone else's actions.  I don't expect anyone to take responsibility for mine.

Oh, and the cop that started this round of "you're a racist, you're a terrorist" has something like 17, I say again, 17, formal, documented complaints/investigations against him.  I'm thinking that the Minneapolis PD leadership and/or union hold just a touch more responsibility for him still being a cop and able to do what he did (although I'd like to see the judicial system play out before anyone convicts him.  Always more than one side to a story.) than I do.

[FLEA]

1 minute ago, Guardian said:

See? You’re making them a victim and blaming it on others. It’s not your parents fault who you are. It isn’t the city you grew up in’s fault. At least after a certain age anyways. Kids are still responsible for their actions. Just less so than adults and that is reflected in the system as well.

What would drive me to crime? I intentionally choose not to commit crime every day. So I don’t really know how to answer your question. It’s odd.

Could you please confirm that what I understand you saying is if people commit a crime and they are of a certain ethnicity then that crime might not be their fault? Is that what I am understanding?

Guardian, first off, I think you being on here open minded and asking questions says enough about your character and I appreciate that I believe you're trying to make an earnest attempt to understand what i'm very poorly trying to explain. 

To go back to our example, yes, I believe individuals are ultimately responsible for their choices to commit crime or not. However, what I have recognized and learned was there was a whole host of institutional forces that steered me away from a life a crime very early on. Mainly money. My parents didn't have much but they had enough to keep me in a middle class public school with decent state scores and an acceptable admissions rate into college. When you think about it, how much of your morality growing up was shaped by your mentors? Parents, teachers, school counselors, resource officers, coaches, etc... Not having those mentors in certain neighborhoods can certainly have detrimental effects for the outcomes of those neighborhoods. Ultimately, we all want less crime in society. So identifying the root causes and providing institutional fixes is likely to gain more ground than just telling people to stop choosing crime.  There are probably reasons they continue to choose crime even after witnessing first hands the consequences of it. We owe it to be good neighbors and try and understand what those reasons are so we can alleviate them. 

Unfortunately its late and I've found myself back at the FTU (as a student) again. So a discussion for tomorrow. But I guess what I want to convey is I actually really empathize your frustration with all of this. 

[Guardian]

To answer your earlier question of whether my previous post was sarcasm, no, it wasn't.  I don't find anything funny about Floyd's brutal death, just as I don't find anything funny about multiple business owners' seeing their livelihood go up in flames, thus since Brick asked, I thought the post in poor taste.  I don't think it's an indication that I (or the rest of the AF for the matter), needs to toughen up on the subject.
  I didn't mean for my post to derail this thread, even though I feel the current situation in our country definitely belongs in a WTF thread.  Nor do I think your a racist for saying POTUS shouldn't be blamed. 
  I don't think an internet forum is going to overnight change people's minds on this subject, from some of the posts for the last two pages people have some pretty strong feelings on this topic, which is understandable.  One of the things I think has been missing in our country lately is a lack of willingness to listen or try to understand problems from other points of view.  I'm willing to listen to viewpoints contrary to my own views even if some of them I disagree with pretty vehemently, but that's ok, because not everyone is going to agree all the time. 
I would like to emphasize the second bullet in your post above.  I'm assuming you're white (if I'm wrong feel free to correct me).  I'd ask that you take a minute and think about what a lot of black people saw when they watched George Floyd's death, especially in a city with a history of racial covenants in it's housing.  Coming on the heels of the Central Park incident in NYC and Arbery killing in Georgia (and multiple others too long to list here).  Whether we as American's like to admit it or discuss it, the American Experience/Dream isn't equal for everyone in this country.  Even among us in the military, people part the 1%, I have friends who've experienced systemic racism during certain parts of their lives.  From my buddy who volunteered to go to Minot because of how he was treated by the locals in Barksdale, to an Army colleague at ACSC who said as black man there were areas around his postings in the South that he didn't dare go to, not because of crime in the area, but because of the color of his skin, to a loadmaster buddy who's had to explain to his young daughters that they need to be careful when interacting with the police because there's a good chance they'll be treated differently (based on his life experiences).
If you have 5 minutes, I'd encourage you to read the recent posting made by the AFSOC/CC on FB here https://www.facebook.com/COMAFSOCOfficial  I don't agree with everything Gen. Slife says or does (I definitely didn't agree with his leadership style when he was a Group and Wing Commander) but he was spot on with his post about George Floyd's death.
It wasn't too long ago (~60 years) that Martin Luther King and Civil Rights movement had to fight for equal rights in America, so that the black people in your squadron can drink from the same water fountain, use the same bathroom, and sit in the same part of the bus that the white members in your squadron can.  Anyone who thinks that the previous 200+ years of institutionalized racism in the US was wiped out overnight is kidding themselves.  Large scale changes in society take time, right now there's a large majority (from what I see based on my friends, colleagues, and statements by public figures) that feel that change isn't happening quickly enough, or in some cases is going the opposite direction.          

Now this is discourse. Thank you for your points and links. I completely think that this was a terrible event. I also think that racism is real and needs to be dealt with.

I think that the riots are wrong and the protests done with action with them aren’t really protests. They are knowingly or unknowingly furthering others agenda which has nothing to do with racism.

Doesn’t matter what my race is. But what I will say is I felt awful and can easily admit that’s one of the worst videos imaginable. Regardless of anyone’s actions to get to that point. It was flat out awful and there should be a process and they should face the justice system and held accountable for their actions. And that is the same thing I am espousing for individuals as a whole. Everyone is held accountable for their actions. Not to be able to blame them starting fires, burning down cities, killing and injuring innocents because society put them in a bad spot.

I will read that post. Thanks for the comments and openness.

[Sim]

Quote

Who am I?

I am a Black man who happens to be the Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force.

I am George Floyd…I am Philando Castile, I am Michael Brown, I am Alton Sterling, I am Tamir Rice.…

Not excusing the cop, but going full on "if I had a son, he would be...." is not exactly wise either.  

 

 

[Guardian]

I hesitated to use that article because it was from WaPo, but I decided to go with it based on the merits of the article itself, and its apparent presentation of all sides.

1st-My point on emotion is that I am not using it to make/deliver my position. That being said, I absolutely believe an emotional investment to this topic is needed. Emotional attachment does not negate a fact based argument.

2nd-Evidence provided. I apologize for not providing it upfront. I believe anyone who is a critical thinker should be able to, with .01 seconds be able to find countless articles backing up everything, so I admit to being guilty of not providing the evidence up front.

3rd-The tone of your posts, and even the use of the word “liberal” makes it an easy inference that you are applying that logic to anyone who disagrees with your position. No stretch by any means.

4th-I used the words “high moral ground” (sarcasm intended) because of statements you make like this. Your condescension is clear when you act holier than thou because of a simple error in attribution. I did not realize we were in a LD debate where scores mattered.

Again, I’m not using emotion in anything I’ve posted. Your highly sarcastic statements, tendency to claim superiority (i.e. many comments like “that’s just weird”, “i have trouble wanting... if you can’t get the basics... correct”, “kinda weird way...”). Your statements do not enhance or improve your side, but imply superiority. Based on how you have replied to everything else, this paragraph will be dismissed out of hand, again, with a snide remark or sarcastic question.

Please show me any personal attacks I have made outside of where I said you “appear to be incredibly agitated.” If that was taken as a personal attack, I apologize. Making a statement about my perception of how you appear to be agitated does not meet the standards of a personal attack unless that standard has changed...

I’m glad you say you’ll give it a fair shake. That’s all anyone can hope for. Maybe you agree, maybe you don’t.

As for what do I suggest, I think this is exactly what needs to happen. Civil discussion that highlights the issues, both sides. If we can discuss things without resorting to real personal attacks, neither argument/position should be dismissed out of hand. If we can discuss it, we can be aware of the potential pitfalls out there that we may not know about now.

I did not claim there are no racist people at the top. I mentioned how the author of the article says that a system can be biased/racist without having intentionally racist people in control. I stand by that. An individual can be ignorant (not the negative connotation of ignorant) of what is happening, and think everything is okay. Take FLEA’s point about socio-economic situations. For argument’s sake, let’s say he is correct. If I’m not mistaken, your current position is that people should be able to extract them from their origins and make something of themselves regardless. Absolutely a valid point. Many have done exactly that.

That does not negate the fact that it is substantially more difficult for someone in that situation to do it than, say, a middle-class white kid who played rec soccer, was in a class where they didn’t ever worry about gangs, etc. Remember, we’re pretending FLEA’s premise is accurate.

Someone who was ignorant of the difficulties faced by minorities might not see that they are presented with drastically different life choices at every step of their life. Much harder to make good choices with maybe an addict mother, absent father, living in the projects. Go to school or join a gang to 1-provide protection from other gangs 2-get a sense of family they don’t get at home 3- earn money to support themselves or younger siblings because their parents didn’t make good life choices 4-many other things.

That kid is much more likely to end up in the system than that white kid. Cops are much more likely to think that kid is guilty of doing something than the white kid. He’s much more likely to get stopped, then annoyed because it’s the 8th time he’s been stopped that month. Then he’s more than a little frustrated and gives more attitude than he should. Then he gets arrested. White kid, if he does get stopped at all, isn’t annoyed, listens to the officer, and then moves on his way.

None of that excuses the black kid’s actions, but it should shed some light on why he feels that way. I’m not perfect, so I know I’d lose my temper eventually.

Ignoring that life is more difficult for people of color doesn’t make it any less true. If you need evidence for that, ref my earlier post with a ton of studies demonstrating what I’m talking about plus a bunch of other scenarios.

Having been in leadership positions, I know I have been ignorant of things going on beneath my level. Maybe I’m just the only one to ever have been guilty of that. I doubt it.

Lastly, I typically hate these internet arguments. They are largely pointless, but I feel like we are now at that point where it is so important to have the discussion. Even if one person is swayed, and everyone else thinks I’m just a crazy person, I’ll be happy with that. I appreciate you engaging.


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I didn’t call anyone liberal. Just the ideaology that “it’s not my fault for my actions, it’s others faults and society and anyone but me” a liberal ideology. So Im glad you addressed it. But you failed to realize you took the leap of assumptions instead of reading and questioning if in doubt.

High moral ground when I make statements like what? Not sure I followed your post on that.

Ok. I get what you are saying that you think I am claiming superiority in my quick retorts. They are intended to show how the statement they follow doesn’t make sense in logical processes. They are meant as a challenge for you to explain and build because the reader and logic does not follow.

I have a hard time following the argument based of FLEA’s premise because I don’t agree with it. Could you base your argument elsewhere?

I agree with the point if you haven’t walked a mile in someone’s shoes that you could be and likely are ignorant. Ignorant not being a bad word but a description of a state of mind and possible realization when lacking something in a shared experience. And I don’t agree that certain people in certain life situations have it more difficult or easier for that matter. That doesn’t excuse crime. And there are variations in the legal system for willing crime and unwilling or lesser extent than active participant crime.

No one is ignoring anything. But your broad brush statement of it is more difficult for people of color just isn’t a uniform statement and can’t be applied uniformly across color.

I’m glad that you are willing to stay away from personal attacks and discuss. Might I suggest that high moral ground and assumptions of name calling or politicking fall under that.

I agree with your final point. Education and discourse keep the mind sharp and moving forward. That’s how we get past this stuff together. Founding fathers largely didn’t agree but they crafted a country unlike any other in existence. We live in the best country known to man ever.

[Guardian]

Guardian, first off, I think you being on here open minded and asking questions says enough about your character and I appreciate that I believe you're trying to make an earnest attempt to understand what i'm very poorly trying to explain. 
To go back to our example, yes, I believe individuals are ultimately responsible for their choices to commit crime or not. However, what I have recognized and learned was there was a whole host of institutional forces that steered me away from a life a crime very early on. Mainly money. My parents didn't have much but they had enough to keep me in a middle class public school with decent state scores and an acceptable admissions rate into college. When you think about it, how much of your morality growing up was shaped by your mentors? Parents, teachers, school counselors, resource officers, coaches, etc... Not having those mentors in certain neighborhoods can certainly have detrimental effects for the outcomes of those neighborhoods. Ultimately, we all want less crime in society. So identifying the root causes and providing institutional fixes is likely to gain more ground than just telling people to stop choosing crime.  There are probably reasons they continue to choose crime even after witnessing first hands the consequences of it. We owe it to be good neighbors and try and understand what those reasons are so we can alleviate them. 
Unfortunately its late and I've found myself back at the FTU (as a student) again. So a discussion for tomorrow. But I guess what I want to convey is I actually really empathize your frustration with all of this. 

Well said! Go crush it. I will read those articles. Thanks all for the discourse.

[Guardian]

I’m just waiting for general Chang to jump in. I miss his quips and trolling.

[brabus]

Did I I just see a cop shoot at people standing on their porch? Tell me there’s more to this I’m not seeing...
 

 

[herkbum]

Maybe it was because they look like they were dressed similar to many of the rioters and it doesn’t look like they were following the cops commands. But I honestly have no idea. Lots of folks on edge.

 

 

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[RASH]

Did I I just see a cop shoot at people standing on their porch? Tell me there’s more to this I’m not seeing...

Paintballs/beanbags maybe?


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[tac airlifter]

6 minutes ago, herkbum said:

Maybe it was because they look like they were dressed similar to many of the rioters and it doesn’t look like they were following the cops commands. But I honestly have no idea. Lots of folks on edge.

 

 

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I’ll dress how I please and stand on my porch how I please.  Shooting taxpayers/property owners is a great way to lose community support.  That’s after letting rioters run rampant for 3 days.

good news: heavy handed police tactics will make firearms ownership more prevalent and acceptable.  I want everyone who can legally be armed to be armed.  

[dream big]

On 5/31/2020 at 3:36 PM, slackline said:

Nothing to do with toughen up. America needs to do away with systemic racism. Period. Dot.

Things about MLK not rioting are missing the point. Rioters are stupid, but the majority of people are peacefully protesting. White people love to dismiss the actions of racist bigots as not representative of the majority, but are quick to accuse an entire race of being guilty of something when it fits their narrative.

I’m a white guy.


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“I’m a white guy” - good for you?

Systematic racism means that the system is inherently racist, it means that we have laws that are racist. Can you point me to a single law that allows discrimination based on skin color? I.e, being black. 
 

Racism isn’t a problem unique to white people or Americans.  

We should welcome peaceful protest and dialogue, from all sides.  Rioters and looters deserve to be thrown in jail and I’m glad we have a President with the galls to address it and take action. 
 

-Not a white guy

[waveshaper]

14 minutes ago, RASH said:

Paintballs/beanbags maybe?


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That's what it looks like^^^(If this is the video?):

"Light 'em up!" Tanya Kerssen video: National Guard, Minneapolis Police Department porch shooting"

 

Edited June 2, 2020 by waveshaper

[herkbum]

I’ll dress how I please and stand on my porch how I please.  Shooting taxpayers/property owners is a great way to lose community support.  That’s after letting rioters run rampant for 3 days.
good news: heavy handed police tactics will make firearms ownership more prevalent and acceptable.  I want everyone who can legally be armed to be armed.  

Agree, but if a mob of people have been reeking havoc on your city and they have been dressed in a certain way, then I’m probably going to wear something that looks nothing like it. I don’t care where I’m standing. A little common sense goes a long way.


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[uhhello]

9 minutes ago, herkbum said:

 

Agree, but if a mob of people have been reeking havoc on your city and they have been dressed in a certain way, then I’m probably going to wear something that looks nothing like it. I don’t care where I’m standing. A little common sense goes a long way.


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Quibbling.  There is zero justification or legality for homeboy to roll down your street and shoot at you with ANYTHING for not obeying an order issued less than 15 seconds from being shouted out.  I would have had the exact same reaction as the people filming.  

[tac airlifter]

17 minutes ago, herkbum said:

Agree, but if a mob of people have been reeking havoc on your city and they have been dressed in a certain way, then I’m probably going to wear something that looks nothing like it. I don’t care where I’m standing. A little common sense goes  a long way

You keep saying ‘dressed a certain way.’  Aside from being irrelevant, it appears factually untrue from different angles.  Evidence for your claim?

As to common sense, if the police had any we might not be in this situation...

Edited June 2, 2020 by tac airlifter

[kaputt]

Do the CMSgt of the AF comment's make anyone else feel uneasy? It's not the content of the message that worries me, although there are some points I disagree with, but its a military member openly commenting on what in many respects is a political issue and using the uniform as a vector for that message.

 

[herkbum]

You keep saying ‘dressed a certain way.’  Aside from being irrelevant, it appears factually untrue from different angles.  Evidence for your claim?

The video itself. They are wearing all black, to include hoodies and stocking caps. Just like a majority of individuals in the videos rioting in the city.


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