The WOKE Thread (Merged from WTF?)

[dream big]

43 minutes ago, TurnHer4 said:

I don't post here a lot, so I'll say this and go back into hiding.

We literally fought a war about states rights...to own slaves. Right side won. Slaves are freed. Lincoln had a lot to do with that...he was assassinated. Now black folks have to pull themselves up by their boot straps. No education, no skills, don't own any of our inventions, nothing. Cool. We pulled ourselves up, and started to thrive. We had our own schools, churches, hospitals, banks, etc. Those that hate us, couldn't handle it. So comes the Tulsa massacre in 1921. Burned down schools, churches, hospitals, banks, killed the men, and raped the women in front of the children. This happened in other parts of the country as well. But pull yourself up by your bootstraps. We did it again. Those that hate us didn't like it. Lynchings and burnings came along, also Jim Crow. While blacks were in WWI and WWII when they returned home, they were not given those same freedoms they went to a foreign land to fight for. Returned home to racism and segregation. Most weren't recognized until they died. JFK comes along and tries to help, does some good work...assassinated. Desegregation comes along. But then the country is redlined so we can only live in certain pockets of the country. Well now we can vote and make things better in our community, but the voting lines are redrawn to lesson the black vote. Now the funding for schools, banks, etc go to the "other neighborhoods" Well this isn't right. Lets peacefully protest. Those that hate us didn't like that. My parents and grandparents were in the street when Bull Connor unleashed the dogs and fire hoses on peaceful protesters in Birmingham. We had a voice, MLK...assassinated. Malcolm X comes along and tries it a different way...assassinated. Then comes the crack epidemic, and guns flooding black neighborhoods. We didn't own anything. We didn't own planes or boats to get any of this stuff in, or even leave the neighborhood to go buy such things. But it showed up. How did it get there? Now we have rich drug dealers and poor addicts. Violence ensues over these things. War on drugs happens. Dads/Uncles (dealers) are sent to prison. Addicts are still in the street. Who takes care of the children? No one, they raise themselves...in that environment. That's all they know. No one was coming into these communities to shed light on other options in life or a way to make it out. You gonna go to school, or sell a dime bag so you can eat tonight? We are still recovering from that. Moving into the 21st century, it's no longer cool to be racist out in the open. Those people didn't change their views they just went into hiding.

I say this not to blame folks, but to shed light on a few of the things the black community has faced. Yet, we still overcome and thrive. BUT if you think racism no longer exist, you're sadly mistaken. If you think racist haven't infiltrated our Sqs, Grps, Wgs, etc you're sadly mistaken. They are still out there, my black bro's and I see it often. We're not playing victim, and we aren't weak, but they still try us. Example, at my last Sq there was almost 20 flights and shops. 3 black flight ccs and a black shop chief. Some one had gotten enough complaints from others and had enough balls to complain to the CC that there were "too many" of us in leadership. Thats just one example. If you want more examples of racism me and the bros have seen on AD, we can take it to the PMs. 

I'm not saying you guys are wrong, I value your input and opinion. My issue is when we bring this stuff up, it gets dismissed and or downplayed. Having someone tell me my experiences didn't happen or "thats not what they meant" is ridiculous. If you can't see that black people have been oppressed and that those that oppressed us are still alive and or have passed those teachings down to their children, there's not a lot I can say. We just want a fair shake. I/We shouldn't be treated differently because of our skin color, that's it. I see a lot of you thinking of this as political, I don't see it that way. It's human rights. Conservatives/Leftist/libtards or whatever doesn't matter right now. 

I went a bit long. I'll go back into hiding now. If I ever see you dudes in the real world, first one is on me.

You bring up some poignant points.  Don’t go back into hiding..let’s talk about this like adults.  If the racism you talk about exists, I’ll bet you a bottle of jack that 99% of us will fight tooth and nail to eradicate it because that’s what we do in the military, we take care of our own. 
 

I do not think “systematic racism” exists in the sense that there is no law that prevents a POC from attaining any rank or position because of their skin color.  Does racism still exist? Of course it does.  How we confront it is how we differ.

Again don’t go back into hiding, let us participate in mature discourse.  We may not agree on certain things but I’m sure we will all learn from each other. 

[TurnHer4]

24 minutes ago, Guardian said:

Let’s fight it together. Show us where it exists. Tell us. Not saying there isn’t racism out there.

Don’t go into hiding. Glad you see it as human rights. That’s what Id like to think that all of those posting on the topic to include myself are after too. A fair and equal opportunity for all. I wish there weren’t labels and we were just all Americans and specifically us just volunteer Americans on one team for the better of our country. Thanks for your words. No need to go into hiding. Good conversation.

Been on the forum for years, just don't ever post. I think the environment I spoke of builds our attitudes and how we show emotion and stress. Growing up in a rough area is no doubt hard. Here's why. Kids are being exposed to things adults that didn't grow up there could never imagine. Shootings, drugs, murders, dead bodies, all at a young age. That does something to an individual. Could even be some sort of PTSD. I've been shot at, robbed, stabbed, etc. It changes you. So when we show up, we sometimes get labeled as nonchalant and not caring. But we've seen so much shit at a young age that what's happening on flights, in MP, etc may be super stressful but to us, it beats a day in the hood. Most of my friends from childhood are dead or in jail. I'm numb to those phone calls now, because I've pushed that pain deep down. My first deployment I controlled 120 plus planes in OIR for 4 hours by myself, didn't break a sweat. But my upbringing wouldn't allow me to show that I wanted to pop the lock and jump out. But I came across as not caring. So when you see something like that, alert the bros that some individuals operate that way. We get that label often.

It's hard to see racism. We don't usually know until an ally alerts us. When you hear things about black airman, don't dismiss it. Try and understand the situation and what could have brought that about. When you see it, stomp it out. Had a black airman that had a flat top hair cut come to me and say the shirt said my hair is out of regs, I need to cut it. I do Flap Top February ever year, so he knew I would know. I told him, looks fine to me. Found a white airman, who's hair was actually out of regs rocking a flat top and went to the shirt. "Shirt, you said airman xyz had to cut his hair?" Yeah Capt, out of regs. "Cool, so what about this airman's hair cut? Same one, but actually out of regs" No, he's good to go. That's when I close the door and have a discussion with the shirt. When you see and hear stuff like that, speak up. Happens every day. To have equality, I think we need to understand that everyone has different upbringings and backgrounds. By that I mean understand who that person is, and why they approach things the way they do. What have they seen that has shaped their perception of reality. What you can learn from them and what they can learn from you. Like Dream Big said, we can learn from each other.

We've made legit strides on this. We know it wouldn't be possible without you dudes helping along the way. We can continue to grow and get better.

[DosXX]

5 hours ago, Guardian said:

Did you know minimum wage was created to keep blacks and minorities out of the work force? But our society, and primarily the far left,is pushing for higher min wage all the time

Let's get a source for this galaxy brain take maybe? 

There's a whole body of theoretical and empirical research that shows minimum wage increases have little to no effect on employment (to a certain limit, of course). Put as simply as possible, the low skill labor market closely resembles a monopsony (the inverse of a monopoly), but you can find a lot of research compiled here if you want to dig in deeper. None of the popular proposed min wage increases would break the monopsony model threshold, especially considering the fact that the minimum wage has decreased in real terms since the 70s... 

https://www.epi.org/publication/briefingpapers_min_wage_bp/

 

[DosXX]

5 hours ago, Guardian said:

 

Ah yes JLP, thought leader and bastion of modern civil rights movements. 

"Most blacks today are mentally ill"

"BLM are worse than the KKK"

Actual quotes, see for yourself. Honestly hope you're listening to people outside some inflammatory and politically fringe edgelord on YouTube. Happy to share some engaging sources that touch on all these issues if you'd be interested.

Edited June 5, 2020 by DosXX

[tac airlifter]

5 hours ago, TurnHer4 said:

Been on the forum for years, just don't ever post. I think the environment I spoke of builds our attitudes and how we show emotion and stress. Growing up in a rough area is no doubt hard. Here's why. Kids are being exposed to things adults that didn't grow up there could never imagine. Shootings, drugs, murders, dead bodies, all at a young age. That does something to an individual. Could even be some sort of PTSD. I've been shot at, robbed, stabbed, etc. It changes you. So when we show up, we sometimes get labeled as nonchalant and not caring. But we've seen so much shit at a young age that what's happening on flights, in MP, etc may be super stressful but to us, it beats a day in the hood. Most of my friends from childhood are dead or in jail. I'm numb to those phone calls now, because I've pushed that pain deep down. My first deployment I controlled 120 plus planes in OIR for 4 hours by myself, didn't break a sweat. But my upbringing wouldn't allow me to show that I wanted to pop the lock and jump out. But I came across as not caring. So when you see something like that, alert the bros that some individuals operate that way. We get that label often.

It's hard to see racism. We don't usually know until an ally alerts us. When you hear things about black airman, don't dismiss it. Try and understand the situation and what could have brought that about. When you see it, stomp it out. Had a black airman that had a flat top hair cut come to me and say the shirt said my hair is out of regs, I need to cut it. I do Flap Top February ever year, so he knew I would know. I told him, looks fine to me. Found a white airman, who's hair was actually out of regs rocking a flat top and went to the shirt. "Shirt, you said airman xyz had to cut his hair?" Yeah Capt, out of regs. "Cool, so what about this airman's hair cut? Same one, but actually out of regs" No, he's good to go. That's when I close the door and have a discussion with the shirt. When you see and hear stuff like that, speak up. Happens every day. To have equality, I think we need to understand that everyone has different upbringings and backgrounds. By that I mean understand who that person is, and why they approach things the way they do. What have they seen that has shaped their perception of reality. What you can learn from them and what they can learn from you. Like Dream Big said, we can learn from each other.

We've made legit strides on this. We know it wouldn't be possible without you dudes helping along the way. We can continue to grow and get better.

Great post.  Don’t go into hiding, this is an insightful discussion.  Not to mention, we can all rally around telling the shirt to fuck off with petty reg enforcement.

 

[Guardian]

Ah yes JLP, thought leader and bastion of modern civil rights movements. 
"Most blacks today are mentally ill"
"BLM are worse than the KKK"
Actual quotes, see for yourself. Honestly hope you're listening to people outside some inflammatory and politically fringe edgelord on YouTube. Happy to share some engaging sources that touch on all these issues if you'd be interested.

Just something that popped up when I went searching. I’ve heard JLP before. I’m not sure the video you shared has his quotes in context.

Share away. Would love to broaden my scope.

[Clark Griswold]

If Pearl Harbor happened today...

 

[Lord Ratner]

22 hours ago, TurnHer4 said:

Been on the forum for years, just don't ever post. I think the environment I spoke of builds our attitudes and how we show emotion and stress. Growing up in a rough area is no doubt hard. Here's why. Kids are being exposed to things adults that didn't grow up there could never imagine. Shootings, drugs, murders, dead bodies, all at a young age. That does something to an individual. Could even be some sort of PTSD. I've been shot at, robbed, stabbed, etc. It changes you. So when we show up, we sometimes get labeled as nonchalant and not caring. But we've seen so much shit at a young age that what's happening on flights, in MP, etc may be super stressful but to us, it beats a day in the hood. Most of my friends from childhood are dead or in jail. I'm numb to those phone calls now, because I've pushed that pain deep down. My first deployment I controlled 120 plus planes in OIR for 4 hours by myself, didn't break a sweat. But my upbringing wouldn't allow me to show that I wanted to pop the lock and jump out. But I came across as not caring. So when you see something like that, alert the bros that some individuals operate that way. We get that label often.

It's hard to see racism. We don't usually know until an ally alerts us. When you hear things about black airman, don't dismiss it. Try and understand the situation and what could have brought that about. When you see it, stomp it out. Had a black airman that had a flat top hair cut come to me and say the shirt said my hair is out of regs, I need to cut it. I do Flap Top February ever year, so he knew I would know. I told him, looks fine to me. Found a white airman, who's hair was actually out of regs rocking a flat top and went to the shirt. "Shirt, you said airman xyz had to cut his hair?" Yeah Capt, out of regs. "Cool, so what about this airman's hair cut? Same one, but actually out of regs" No, he's good to go. That's when I close the door and have a discussion with the shirt. When you see and hear stuff like that, speak up. Happens every day. To have equality, I think we need to understand that everyone has different upbringings and backgrounds. By that I mean understand who that person is, and why they approach things the way they do. What have they seen that has shaped their perception of reality. What you can learn from them and what they can learn from you. Like Dream Big said, we can learn from each other.

We've made legit strides on this. We know it wouldn't be possible without you dudes helping along the way. We can continue to grow and get better.

This is a massive and important distinction.

 

There *are* racists. Varying degrees of intent and magnitude, but they absolutely exist. The timeline and procedures for eradicating racism (if possible at all) is a long, nuanced conversation.

 

But that doesn't translate into the existence of systemic racism, or a racist America. Or for that matter a racist police force, even though there are definitely racist cops. (Both once were, but no longer are)

 

The statistics don't lie, there is no systemic extermination of black people in America. Even the Washington Post pegs the number of unarmed black men killed in the US in 2019 at nine. Nine out of 30 million is not a result of systemic racism.

 

Why does it matter? Because people react violently and unpredictably to narative lies.

 

We have an insane president because the Democrat party told a story about illegal immigration that just didn't jive with the American people. Despite what the Twitterati and talking heads say, the average American cocks their head to the side when they are told that America in 2020 writ large is a racist nation. Many times this fallacy is exaggerated to the point to say that it's *just as racist* as it was 200 years ago. Really?

 

Why is this narative being pushed? Counter intuitively I think it's because the warriors of the bad old days, the survivors of a time when America *was* systemically racist, see the end of their crusade to change the system, and while they were successful (thank god), there hasn't been any sort of obvious retribution for the perpetrators of hate. This is why reparations are being brought up again. If we can't punish the people who bear the blame, we can at least extract a measure of compensation from the group as a whole. Or riot. Break their stuff. 

 

But thats just the way of things. The timeframe for wide scale societal change is measured in generations, not days or months or years. And the previous generation doesn't change so much as get overruled by their progeny. And they don't pay for their sins, they just die eventually, leaving their kids to sort it out.

 

Dr. King understood this: Americans do not believe in the sins of the father. It's the generational version of "one guy shits his pants and we all wear diapers." It's a bad strategy in the military, and it's a bad strategy in social change.

[Lord Ratner]

18 hours ago, DosXX said:

Ah yes JLP, thought leader and bastion of modern civil rights movements. 

"Most blacks today are mentally ill"

"BLM are worse than the KKK"

Actual quotes, see for yourself. Honestly hope you're listening to people outside some inflammatory and politically fringe edgelord on YouTube. Happy to share some engaging sources that touch on all these issues if you'd be interested.

So the only thing you've ever watched of his comes from videos made by people who hate him? That's like asking for a fair account of Barak Obama's presidency from Sean Hannity.

 

JLP is one of the most inoffensive intellectuals in modern history. The hate for him is indicative of the mental flimsiness of progressive philosophy. If you're message is garbage, go after the person instead of the point.

[skibum]

Hey mods - how about we get this thread back on track and move the George Floyd debate to its own thread. This used to be my fav but has become a buzz kill. Here's a little turn toward the normal for the WTF discussion...

[DosXX]

1 hour ago, Lord Ratner said:

So the only thing you've ever watched of his comes from videos made by people who hate him? That's like asking for a fair account of Barak Obama's presidency from Sean Hannity.

 

JLP is one of the most inoffensive intellectuals in modern history. The hate for him is indicative of the mental flimsiness of progressive philosophy. If you're message is garbage, go after the person instead of the point.

Interesting interpretation of inoffensive, but no I've watched full unedited debates with JLP, that's how I came to know him in the first place. Black conservatives like Allen West, Clarence Thomas, and Larry Elder are much more deserving of a seat on the table considering how he argues and what he has said. People will call out cringe leftists like AOC but defend the likes of JLP. 

[Lord Ratner]

5 minutes ago, DosXX said:

Interesting interpretation of inoffensive, but no I've watched full unedited debates with JLP, that's how I came to know him in the first place. Black conservatives like Allen West, Clarence Thomas, and Larry Elder are much more deserving of a seat on the table considering how he argues and what he has said. People will call out cringe leftists like AOC but defend the likes of JLP. 

Well then by all means, what has he said that's so cringy? Include context.

 

Comparing him to AOC is the second silly thing you've said. 

[JBueno]

This used to be such a cool thread.

[bfargin]

I think a way better response than what other senior AF officials have put out there. No solutions offered if  you're looking for that, but it does end with a call for dialogue.

Sorry, I didn't see another place to put this yet, so I kept the thread off topic.

Edited June 6, 2020 by bfargin

[DosXX]

46 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

 

 

46 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

Well then by all means, what has he said that's so cringy? Include context.

 

Comparing him to AOC is the second silly thing you've said. 

He argues like a 12 year old, constantly strawmans arguments and ignores the premise of the argument. He constantly resorts to calling people betas if he disagrees rather than engaging. Don't see what context makes the quotes I listed earlier not cringeworthy. If you're so idealogically entrenched you can't see the similarities to AOC in cringe and lack of logic then we can respectfully agree to disagree here.

Edited June 6, 2020 by DosXX

[FLEA]

2 hours ago, Kiloalpha said:

I have never in my life heard of JLP. I do, however listen to Coleman Hughes, Thomas Sowell, and Larry Elder. Coleman has the most nuanced, and thoughtful take here. If you have time, it’s worth a listen.

This dude is REALLY well spoken. 

[Guardian]

I think a way better response than what other senior AF officials have put out there. No solutions offered if  you're looking for that, but it does end with a call for dialogue. Sorry, I didn't see another place to put this yet, so I kept the thread off topic. 

 

  

Edit: This post is in response to the PACAF/CC and future CSAF video response

 

I didn’t hear blame speak or decrying white privilege, or blame everyone but himself for his circumstances. I heard a man take ownership of his life despite expectations towards otherwise and overcome. I heard a message of hope regardless of race, gender, or religion. I see a man that owns the saying the only person that can beat you is you. I would absolutely stand next to this man and fight wrongs done to our airmen if he is who he led us to believe he is in this message. I heard a message of equal opportunity and of helping our airmen become the best they can be. All great things.

 

If there is such a thing that is a systematic or organized racism, show us where it is and let’s get rid of it, together. If there is such a thing, where is it? Let’s go after it.

 

I see no where in this message where he blamed an entire skin color for keeping another skin color down.

 

I thought it was a very well done message. I hope he has the ability to talk to the chief and let him know how destructive his comments were.

 

I see a reason to believe in the next CSAF. Hope he continues it. This is a breath of fresh air compared to current CSAF and Lead E9 of the AF.

 

 

 

[Guardian]

He argues like a 12 year old, constantly strawmans arguments and ignores the premise of the argument. He constantly resorts to calling people betas if he disagrees rather than engaging. Don't see what context makes the quotes I listed earlier not cringeworthy. If you're so idealogically entrenched you can't see the similarities to AOC in cringe and lack of logic then we can respectfully agree to disagree here.

Can you show an example of that with context? Not saying you are wrong. Just asking.

[daynightindicator]

One thing I think a lot of people miss with the “privilege” argument is that it’s not (or shouldn’t be) intended to shame, punish, or otherwise degrade the group with that privilege. It’s more about just understanding what other groups have to deal with and how those experiences might shape their views and actions.

If you think someone is using the privilege argument to shame you or cast themselves as a helpless victim, I would A) reconsider their argument carefully to see if it’s misinterpreted, and B) if that truly is their argument, disregard them because it’s not helpful.

It took me a while to understand that, but I can now see that, as a white male, there are experiences and obstacles that I have never and will never face that a black man (or woman, or other minority group) has and will. Same goes for different gender, religion, etc. I’m talking about common experiences, not individual stories of adversity...obviously there are people of all backgrounds with incredibly diverse stories that don’t fit a trite narrative.

This doesn’t mean that I can’t be proud of my accomplishments, or that I somehow didn’t earn what I have, or that I shouldn’t be in the position I’m in because I am white. However, understanding that some of my airmen have obstacles or experiences that are unique to their skin color, gender, etc. is enlightening and important, and through that understanding hopefully I can be a better leader for them.

Examples are plentiful and talking to your airmen or other friends in minority groups can really open your eyes. I had a SrA in my squadron tell me he and his brother were refused the sale of a handgun by a white store owner who assumed they were going to use it for a crime, despite the fact that both were of legal age and active duty military with clean records. Another Airman in our wing spoke up about how differently he is treated at the mall when is in uniform vs. out of uniform. Plenty of other examples, and that’s just with one minority group.

Also, systemic (not systematic) racism is evident in the USAF promotion system and criminal justice system. I don’t have the exact stats in front of me, but that point was made by several senior leaders in recent days, and is apparently bad enough to warrant an independent investigation.

I’m glad to see military leaders trying to confront it head on. It’s going to be a difficult and uncomfortable thing to talk about but in the end it will make us stronger, or at the very least, help us know more about each other.

[DosXX]

1 hour ago, Guardian said:

Can you show an example of that with context? Not saying you are wrong. Just asking.

Sure, I can give examples of both from a full video from JLPs channel as source so you can get the full context. At around 10:07 he strawmans Ben's argument by suggesting Ben believes people are "so dumbed down and lazy" because he supports certain policies. Around 20:00 JLP asks a loaded question and then interrupts with BETA when Ben tries to defend his position. This is not a defense of Ben's positions at all, just pointing out examples as requested. 

 

 

 

[daynightindicator]

Agree that some people definitely use it to shame or score points...I try to avoid engaging with that stuff and I stay away from the fringe elements of both sides of the political spectrum because there’s pretty much no goodness to be had there.

 

 

We'll see. If this turns into a "___ minority group makes up x% of the population but only makes up % amount of CGO's so we need to promote more" kind of logic, then we're barking up the wrong tree.

 

I think the numbers were indicating that there was something like a 6:1 chance that a black airman receives NJP as opposed to a white airman. Hopefully they investigate to see the details of why that is. For example, if you find that consistently, black airmen are punished more severely or at a higher rate for the exact same offense as white airmen, that indicates a major problem.

 

I don’t remember hearing the stats on the promotion stuff, just that they found similar statistics indicating there may be a problem.

 

Also, I think these issues are difficult to address because you can only get so far with policy. I’ve always believed that PRFs should go up to the board with no personal information whatsoever - just a randomly assigned number in place of all that admin stuff. However that would not address issues in stratification/OPR writing where commanders’ potential biases are captured.

[FLEA]

1 hour ago, Kiloalpha said:

You say that, but it's being used in exactly that context. See:

I've been "checked" for my privilege in a variety of circumstances. All of those times by white people who are more concerned with looking good for others than anything else. It's a way to shut down someone. It's a way to tell someone their life's experiences don't matter. I see what you're trying to say and do by parsing it out, and if that was the extent of its use, I'd be all for it. However, words and ideas are weaponized for political gain and "privilege" is just another instance of that. This girl didn't do anything to anyone. She could have been the victim of domestic violence, raped, abused as a child, who the hell knows. But that guy running across the street, he's better than her because she has "white privilege."

We're 100% in agreement here. Shared experiences help make everyone wiser to the world and its ills. It makes you a better person and leader.

We'll see. If this turns into a "___ minority group makes up x% of the population but only makes up % amount of CGO's so we need to promote more" kind of logic, then we're barking up the wrong tree.

1.) Hundred % agree this is an inappropriate use of the concept of privilege and exactly why i hate the term. I believe the phenomena is real, but language is everything. Calling the phenomena "privilege" invokes a sense that some people are ahead in life because they received an unfair advantage. Trying to get someone to join my cause and then telling them they were only successful because they cheated doesn't usually work.

Here's the thing; if you grew up and your family provided for you, you went to school, scored grades, found mentors, and worked hard; and then you were met with success and money; you are exactly where you SHOULD be. That is how society is SUPPOSED to work. 

The real question is, and I believe what most genuine people are trying to attack when they discuss the concept of privilege, is why does this formula for success not translate evenly over some subsets of society. Why is it that they are not getting to where they SHOULD be. When you use the term privilege people believe some people have things they shouldnt. The reality is some people don't have things they should. Its not a zero sum game. Everyone can win. You can have a society where everyone benefits. 

Recognizing that this was the intent of discussing privilege, and getting around the wording on it, was I think what allowed me to see around my mostly conservative points of view to realize that I might be missing something in the race argument.

2.) I dont think most people are looking for race targeted policy changes. Ignore the talking heads who are loud about reparations and speak to people in the middle. Most people want to see targeted reforms that benefit everyone but will benefit minorities disproportionately because of income class divide. For example, poverty. Putting in structures to alleviate poverty helps all Americans regardless of color. The black and latino community as a whole will benefit more from it though because they make up disproportionately higher demographics of the lowest income quartile. 

In law enforcement, getting rid of qualified immunity, ending the war on drugs and crack downs on other victimless crimes, increasing foot patrols over vehicle patrols (requires a huge manpower investment), overhauling recruiting methodologies, etc... none of those specifically target any one race. Get on board with those, they help everyone. 

[daynightindicator]

FLEA those are very good points and FWIW we are very close on many concepts you spoke about - namely getting to the root cause of why certain societal groups don’t see positive results while others do.

One thing I realized reading that is that at some point, my personal definition of privilege changed from having something I “shouldn’t” have to having something someone else “doesn’t” have. That made it seem less like a personal attack on me and instead made me more interested in learning about the other persons experience.

Semantics maybe, but like you said words do matter.

100% agree with addressing poverty and income inequality - by finding good policies and incentives so we can grow the pie, rather than simply redistribution of existing slices.

[di1630]

I once got aggressively lectured on privilege by a successful black guy. Turns out he actually came from a much more “privileged” background than I when we got down to it.

Lots of assumptions made on all sides.

We all have privilege...American privilege. Living in the richest, freest, least discriminatory society in world history.

I’m tired of f-cking hearing otherwise.

Ungrateful woke SJW progressives can f-off


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

[FLEA]

1 minute ago, Kiloalpha said:

@FLEA The discussion then becomes... who is responsible for providing the things they SHOULD have? Depending on how you quantify "welfare," we spent almost twice as much on welfare compared to defense in 2019. Clearly, if poverty is still continuing (and becoming generational), then we're not getting much bang for our buck there, and the "War on Poverty," was a failure.

So, I'd argue, the answer isn't "mo' money."

Qualified immunity wasn't even meant for cops when it was created, it should get a hard look for sure.

The war on drugs is a necessary evil to an extent. I think we can all agree to let weed go, but not before we establish a framework to criminalize actions on it (how many puffs before you can't drive, etc.). The rest? Keep it illegal for public safety. No one needs fentanyl, it's killed too many already. But legalizing weed will help reduce non-violent offenses, which definitely does seem to impact minorities more than whites.

Policing needs to be re-thought entirely. That doesn't mean "defund the police" though.

I absolutely wouldn't defund the police and can't understand how most democrats find that the logical answer. First off, no society in the world right now successfully exist with out some sort of law enforcement. Furthermore, it seems to me you would want to give departments more money so they can recruit better qualified candidates, increase training, increase walking patrols, increase presence. If you've read my other post on here, many of you know my wife is a prior cop. I was surprised she would patrol the worst parts of Tucson by herself. Nearest help was 15-25 minutes out sometimes. When you recognize situations with police escalate quickly because police are saying they are in fear for their life, we should acknowledge that increasing their sense of security by bringing back the partner system is a positive step not a negative one. So what I think we really need with the whole "defund the police" thing is just give them less discretionary spending. 

Additionally, a big one my wife and I have discussed, is an overhaul of their hiring practices. Some departments are militantly protective of their high levels of scrutiny. My wife getting hired as a police officer was harder than a TS/SCI with full scope poly. Its ridiculous that you can be trusted to work with our nations most dangerous secrets/weapons but you can't be a police officer. This needs a thorough review for 2 reasons. 1.) Its not working. We still get bad cops. So clearly these practices aren't the end all be all for vetting morality. 2.) It prevents a lot of reformed people who would honestly be GOOD cops from doing so. These people often had challenged upbringings and can connect with kids and youth in a way someone from a middle class suburban neighborhood couldn't. Remember before anything else, police are successful because they earn the community's trust. Or better yet, they are members of that community already and they are working to help turn it around. 

I also agree that there would need to be a consensus on how far to let the war on drugs go. We obviously aren't going to legalize everything but we can change the extent and manner that we enforce it. This topic ties in heavy with incarceration and private prisons though. The overall point being however that we need to treat incarceration more seriously in our country. Its not only a permanent loss of several civil rights but it permanently affects your ability to seek employment afterwards. Once a debt to society is paid and a person deemed reformed they should not be living under reduced conditions for the rest of their life. 

Regarding poverty, I don't think dumping money into peoples pockets is going to fix anything. But providing education grants for better schooling and incentivizing businesses to move into destitute neighborhoods is probably a good start.