The WOKE Thread (Merged from WTF?)

[brabus]

9 hours ago, brawnie said:

What would you recommend?

A lot of what Social D already said, so I’ll try not to repeat. But, given the unknowns back in Mar (and not applying hindsight), I’m ok with the initial “flatten the curve” actions. However after that 4-6 weeks, I would have opened the economy back up and put kids back in school. Continue to emphasize the need for hygiene, stay home if your sick, social distance to max extent possible, etc. I’m certainly not against all things that have been done to counter Covid, but I’m very against the incredibly damaging things we’ve done to our economy, mental health, and our children’s well being and development. Those were not “necessary to save the world!”, they were knee jerk reactions with no, credible data to support. In the end, we’ve essentially crushed ourselves over a bad flu season. 

 

3 hours ago, Prozac said:

These people would not have died had it not been to the virus

False. That’s your opinion based on pure conjecture, not even remotely a fact. 

[Prozac]

5 minutes ago, brabus said:

 

False. That’s your opinion based on pure conjecture, not even remotely a fact. 

The excess deaths number currently stands at around 200k. This supports the CDC’s roughly 180k current coronavirus fatality number. Are you suggesting some other, unseen and unknown factor has caused roughly two hundred thousand Americans to die prematurely? That’d sure be a hell of a story. Maybe Q Anon will pick it up. 

[tedybearofdoom]

37 minutes ago, brabus said:

False. That’s your opinion based on pure conjecture, not even remotely a fact. 

I am genuinely interested in you opinion on people who contracted HIV/AIDS and died by contracting some other disease/virus.

I suppose the biggest difference is you contract HIV/AIDS then get something else that kills you whereas with COVID, you already have a preexisting condition and contracted COVID and then died. Is that really a big difference?

[Waingro]

11 hours ago, brabus said:

Direct from CDC website: “For 6% of the deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death.”

94% of COVID deaths in our country are with underlying health conditions...

 

That's like saying gunshot victims are actually dying from blood loss and sepsis as comorbidities, and not the gunshot itself.

[busdriver]

9 hours ago, brawnie said:

And if the disease still got to you with restrictions (probably via asymptomatic transmission), how can we reasonably ask for those at risk to avoid infection? They still have to get food, go to the doctor, fix their homes, interact with those that care for them. Unfortunately, there is no such thing anymore as a self-sufficient man; everyone is very interconnected.

This is called life.  There is no omnipotent power that can protect everyone from nature.  Yes that's a heartless answer.  We've nerfed the world so effectively that when something like this comes along, we're flabbergasted that there isn't an answer if only our leaders would "be bold."

More rationally:  Society's ability to support the weaker members is contingent on being strong as a whole.  Shooting ourselves in the foot economically negatively impacts our ability to do that.  When small businesses fail because they can't pay their bills, those jobs go away, which means there is no job for that at risk person once nature has run its course.  Unless of course everyone wants to work for Amazon and our future overlord The Bezos.

Individual rights aside there were really only two rational courses of action (one of which is long since no longer available) the first is to lock down hard and starve the virus of hosts and let it burn out.  The second is to rationally mitigate to avoid overloading the medical system while allowing the economy to continue.  This in between thing that is happening now is political grandstanding.  

[Prozac]

4 minutes ago, busdriver said:

This is called life.  There is no omnipotent power that can protect everyone from nature.  Yes that's a heartless answer.  We've nerfed the world so effectively that when something like this comes along, we're flabbergasted that there isn't an answer if only our leaders would "be bold."

More rationally:  Society's ability to support the weaker members is contingent on being strong as a whole.  Shooting ourselves in the foot economically negatively impacts our ability to do that.  When small businesses fail because they can't pay their bills, those jobs go away, which means there is no job for that at risk person once nature has run its course.  Unless of course everyone wants to work for Amazon and our future overlord The Bezos.

Individual rights aside there were really only two rational courses of action (one of which is long since no longer available) the first is to lock down hard and starve the virus of hosts and let it burn out.  The second is to rationally mitigate to avoid overloading the medical system while allowing the economy to continue.  This in between thing that is happening now is political grandstanding.  

So the next time an earthquake hits this country we should say “that’s life”? That the nation cannot afford the relief effort and that growing the economy is more important than helping the people affected? How is the natural disaster we’re currently experiencing any different?

[BashiChuni]

corona virus is over. time to move on with our lives.

[busdriver]

30 minutes ago, Prozac said:

So the next time an earthquake hits this country we should say “that’s life”? That the nation cannot afford the relief effort and that growing the economy is more important than helping the people affected? How is the natural disaster we’re currently experiencing any different?

"rationally mitigate to avoid overloading the medical system while allowing the economy to continue"    You skipped the rest of the post.  

[Magnum]

1 hour ago, Prozac said:

So the next time an earthquake hits this country we should say “that’s life”? That the nation cannot afford the relief effort and that growing the economy is more important than helping the people affected? How is the natural disaster we’re currently experiencing any different?

The next earthquake that deviates the entire nation simultaneously let me know. Since the 98% of the country isn't affected, they can support those who need it.  Who can support the entire country when it's all shut down?

[17D_guy]

5 hours ago, brabus said:

... I would have opened the economy back up and put kids back in school. Continue to emphasize the need for hygiene, stay home if your sick, social distance to max extent possible, etc.

Isn't this what Texas, and to some degree (or not) FL and GA did?  I was still in San Antonio during the first 1/2 of this year, and we  locked down really hard.  Then like...a month later the oil prices started to drop and the "hoax crew" came out, and Abott started opening everything up again.  Despite local leaders asking him not to yet, especially in Houston and San Antonio.

[AirGuardianC141747]

BLUF: We will never know what the numbers of death might have been had nothing been done. We will definitely see more data on the impact on the economy this year, next year and beyond perhaps. It’s all 20/20 hindsight. 331,000,000 people and some change here supposedly in the U.S. 200,000 thereabouts passed due to recent pandemic so far (information given). Lessons learned hopefully, but whatever they may be the fact is it’s another way to stare into the abyss or move along if you will. Stay clean, do your due diligence and carry on, be safe as possible out there. Nothing added, just two factual numbers from a 45,000 ft level view for perspective. 
331M - 200K... Trillions of $, how deep will it go - definitely a New World. Cats and Dogs living together, Israeli commercial flights to UAE ( thru Saudi Airspace no less), FAA approves Amazon, etc to go forward regarding testing of drone fleet, protestors using Quickrete in attempt to seal in a police precinct and set it on fire(Police inside), who knew? 
 

Only thing I know - some people need cement block boots...

Edited September 1, 2020 by AirGuardianC141747

[brabus]

For the handful of peeps that didn’t like my statement regarding 6%...

Flu deaths:

2014/2017 - 51k/61k died / 2020 - 68k died (with COVID)

chronic lower respiratory disease deaths:

2018 - 159323 died / 2020 - 13780 died (with COVID)

Diabetes deaths in over 20:

2017 - 83564 died / 2020 - 25936 died (with COVID)
 

So yeah, the data shows, 1) These deaths in 2020 were likely to occur regardless of Covid. Read it: Only 8% of of the 2018 total of lower respiratory deaths have had COVID associated this year. 2) Covid did in fact happen to be just a CF in many cases, and not a RC. But by all means, you guys can continue to make ridiculous analogies like bleeding gunshot wounds and ignore data that doesn’t support your beliefs regarding Covid risk and mortality.

 

[Negatory]

This post is unfortunately more condescending than I like, but I guess it is what it is.

Your analysis is, at best, fallacious and, at worst, intentionally misleading. I'll trust in Hanlon's razor and just assume incompetence over malice. Also, you'll note that these graphs have websites at the bottom. It's a thing called a "source."

You still are ignoring excess mortality and arguing that COVID has had marginal total effects, all with no actual data to back it up. Your stats for Flu/Chronic Respiratory Disease/Diabetes show... nothing? They don't compare apples to apples. You would need to have TOTAL deaths for FLU/Chronic Lower Respiratory Disease/Diabetes in 2020, including both COVID and non-COVID - and it would need to be extrapolated to December - to compare the two datasets.

Tons of people, literally the vast majority of them (>99%), live with and through those diseases every year. The fact that there are cases where they died with COVID only really proves that COVID does what has been said: causes death in the population. Literally nothing more. It just shows that deaths happen. Now if you could extrapolate the data from everyone that got COVID, then you could possibly compare the outcomes of the population without COVID that died from those diseases to the population with COVID that did, but that's not even close to what you did.

Your argument that they had a pre-existing condition and would have died "regardless" is also absurd. Do you know how many people have pre-existing conditions in America? 40% of the country is obese for god's sake. The fact that a huge percentage of society has pre-existing conditions should be ASSUMED in discussions like these. The population of America is at risk health-wise, no duh, but that doesn't mean they are going to keel over and die year-to-year.

1) What do you think caused the 200k excess deaths up to this point this year? And how exactly does it matter what is a CF or a RC? When it comes down to death statistics, there is a reason why they don't put CF/RC on the death certificate: it usually doesn't matter because it's a combination of health effects that causes mortality. And before you go there, of course people with COVID that died in a car accident did NOT die of COVID, I'm not arguing that. But what's the difference from this year to the last decade? These people died because of something different. What could it be? Spoilers: It's the coronavirus combined with a naturally vulnerable population that ALWAYS EXISTS based on how humans age.

2) Here's the one other logical fallacy I'll dig into a little more (feel free to have me address more later). Your argument that folks with pre-existing conditions would have died "regardless" is horseshit. I bet even you or someone in your family has a pre-existing condition, based on the statistics. Or at least your VA claim will show it here in a few years. I'll put down money on that one. The number of Americans that have a pre-existing condition is up to 86% by insurer's definitions for people age 55-64. 48% of them have a no-shit health high risk pre-existing condition. They don't even report on those older than that, because it's basically assumed that the majority of the aged population has something significantly wrong with their health. "Sorry grandma, I know you have diabetes and high blood pressure, which you could probably live with for another 10-15 years with simple treatment, but the economy must open up. Although COVID disproportionately kills those over the age of 70 - and if you get it you have a high chance of hospitalization and a 5-10% chance of death - that is a sacrifice I am willing to make. Ignore the fact that we likely will have a working vaccine in the next year which would stop all of this, my mutual funds need to go up NOW. FAKE NEWS. DON'T TREAD ON ME."

Source: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02483-2

It's not that hard. Wear your stupid mask, stop hanging out with all your friends, put your travel plans on a temporary hold, get over the fact that national sports and colleges aren't gonna be on TV, and understand that society isn't actually powerless when it comes to battling infectious disease. For all the shit conservatives give liberals over being babies, they have a real problem toughening up and adjusting their lifestyle temporarily for a global catastrophe. Literally FOX News hosts in the height of the deaths in April ran a segment about how hard it is to not be able to get your hair done, while, at the same time, medical teams across the world from Italy to Spain to the UK to the US were delivering bodies to morgues at a weekly rate 5-15 times higher than normal. Want to know something? Those countries don't have the magnitude of problem we have now. They learned and their societies adapted. Numerous other countries and societies haven't F'd this GLOBAL DISEASE away like we have.

BLAB (BOTTOM LINE AT THE BOTTOM): Stop arguing about whether or not COVID causes deaths. It does. If you want to argue that 100's of thousands of deaths aren't that bad in the big scheme of the population and we can accept a few 100 thousand more, then that's your prerogative. I disagree, but at least now we are arguing about opinions.

Out.

[SurelySerious]

It’s all fucking arbitrary. You can’t go to restaurants, your choice of faith gathering, etc, but mainline carrier X can seat you shoulder to shoulder with someone for hours straight. GMAFB and end the charades. Yeah, keep some distance from people when you can but get on with life. 

[brickhistory]

It's the condescending posts that impress me the most.

Just makes me realize that if I only agreed with my betters, I'd be "on the right side of history."

Or something...

[17D_guy]

37 minutes ago, brickhistory said:

It's the condescending posts that impress me the most.

Just makes me realize that if I only agreed with my betters, I'd be "on the right side of history."

Or something...

So do you have a refutation for the post, or just gonna run away with your feelings hurt appealing to some supposed future moral superiority? 

It was well laid out, even had pictures for our presidential types, and has sources.  Dude's not a robot, and is passionate about it.  "It" being not killing old people with our selfishness.

But whatever, you do you from 6ft away and/or with a mask please.

[FLEA]

22 minutes ago, 17D_guy said:

So do you have a refutation for the post, or just gonna run away with your feelings hurt appealing to some supposed future moral superiority? 

It was well laid out, even had pictures for our presidential types, and has sources.  Dude's not a robot, and is passionate about it.  "It" being not killing old people with our selfishness.

But whatever, you do you from 6ft away and/or with a mask please.

Noone is arguing for anything selfish. If that's how you see things, you are not listening. 

[brickhistory]

He certainly is passionate about it.  While I disagree completely with his premise, he's putting on a reasonably good argument. 

Then ruins it with the condescending cheap shots.  If the reader is going through the points and the data then gets hit (metaphorically, not literally for any SJWs thinking that words are violence) with numerous cheap shots on how to think or that they are less worthy for thinking differently, then most human reactions are going to be "F U."

Don't get me wrong, I can go cheap shot and snarky with the best of them, but try to differentiate between a serious discussion that I care about, as in your example given, and the snark factor.  Not always successfully, admittedly.

As to your six foot advice and/or a mask, please ensure that you are completely retired and not still on terminal leave before you go completely freaky such that UCMJ wouldn't understand. 🙂   And congrats.

Now back to our earnest, yet oh so wrong, follow the herd even though there are differences within the scientific let alone political communities, correspondent.

 

Edited September 1, 2020 by brickhistory

[Egghead]

1 hour ago, Desk Jobs Suck said:

When this is perfectly acceptable and actively encouraged by MSM, with no mention of concern for the spread of COVID,

 

but this is lambasted by the MSM as "Trump, Pence greet crowd of supporters without masks"

 

How can anyone take COVID seriously whether you think it is a threat or not?

Maybe don't use a picture from *2015* as evidence?

https://www.startribune.com/black-lives-matter-group-to-rally-disrupt-operations-at-minnesota-state-fair/322479171/

[slackline]

When this is perfectly acceptable and actively encouraged by MSM, with no mention of concern for the spread of COVID,
 
but this is lambasted by the MSM as "Trump, Pence greet crowd of supporters without masks"

How can anyone take COVID seriously whether you think it is a threat or not?

Have a date, location or source for the BLM protest shot? I fully believe you that there were probably a bunch of idiots not following mask and physical distance rules, but looking at that picture, you can’t see any masks anywhere. Not even hanging around necks or off ears. I find it hard to believe that zero people were following guidelines in a crowd full of “bleeding heart liberals”, but sure, go ahead, post something that makes you look lazy. I’m sure it would have been real tough to find an actual picture supporting your point...


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[slackline]

Maybe don't use a picture from *2015* as evidence?
https://www.startribune.com/black-lives-matter-group-to-rally-disrupt-operations-at-minnesota-state-fair/322479171/

Dang, you beat me to it...


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[SurelySerious]

9 minutes ago, slackline said:

Have a date, location or source for the BLM protest shot? I fully believe you that there were probably a bunch of idiots not following mask and physical distance rules, but looking at that picture, you can’t see any masks anywhere. Not even hanging around necks or off ears. I find it hard to believe that zero people were following guidelines in a crowd full of “bleeding heart liberals”, but sure, go ahead, post something that makes you look lazy. I’m sure it would have been real tough to find an actual picture supporting your point...


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Have you seen any picture of any riot in the last 5 months on literally any day on any news channel? 

[slackline]

Have you seen any picture of any riot in the last 5 months on literally any day on any news channel? 

Yeah, you see masks everywhere. Maybe not on everyone, but there is a lot of evidence that a pandemic is going on.


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[SurelySerious]

Just now, slackline said:

Yeah, you see masks everywhere. Maybe not on everyone, but there is a lot of evidence that a pandemic is going on.


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Masks to hide identity, while they mass together with no regard for spacing. You’re rather obtuse if you think they give two shits about Covid. 

[slackline]

That wasn't very hard....

I see you don’t do sarcasm. Clearly it isn’t hard, and I did, in fact, say it wouldn’t surprise me to have a bunch of idiots. There are also clearly people with masks in this photo.


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