The WOKE Thread (Merged from WTF?)

[brabus]

2 minutes ago, pawnman said:

When was the last time an officer was convicted of killing someone?

Oct 2019 from what I found in a .69 sec google search. 
 

My general thought (not directed at Pawnman): Police do need to be held accountable, but they should be helped with better/more consistent training and their leadership needs to have their backs. I don’t mean cover up crimes, but stop throwing them under the bus the second some zero-context video hits the news. Let’s gather the facts before demonizing an officer; stop letting the media get away with ramming unchecked narratives down the public’s throats.

To this specific incident: The video sure doesn’t look good, but what’s the context, what happened in the preceding minutes or hours to this situation? Had the guy been getting in the police’s faces, touching them, ignoring commands for a long time? Had he threatened them verbally? Had they given him numerous warnings to disperse/get back?

Many of us have been in numerous situations killing people where some fucking dipshit who wasn’t there starts their virtuous armchair quarterbacking - how about said dipshit has the full picture before questioning or accusing those present in the moment. Again, the 10 sec clip doesn’t look great, but I will not judge this officer or any others until the full picture is determined. I wasn’t there, we’re any of you spear chuckers?

[FLEA]

12 hours ago, jice said:

Very interested in this. I’m not an expert, and from the cheap seats it is definitely striking that the standard in court as I understand Graham (not an expert or lawyer) is narrowly constrained to the moment force was used. There seems to be lots of room for failures leading up to that moment, which is troubling when we’re talking about American citizens. What do you recommend I read? What insight would you be willing to share?  
 

I’m not willing to go as far as to say that an officer must be right IN FACT when using deadly force, else face murder charges, but  as [I understand] it stands right now they can be very very wrong and not pay for their mistake in the same way that an armed citizen would.  Help me understand what I don’t know. 

I honestly wish I had something to reference to you. But I dont. I had special insight because I was married to a cop. I spent a lot of time at her place of work, doing ride-alongs, hanging out with her friends etc...

On the risk, its completely incomparable. There are so many moving parts. For example, the fact that LE accepts risk daily for years without reprieve and military only accepts it in short duration for deployments. LE doesn't choose the time and place of their encounters but the US military doctrinally only operates with initiative. LE normally works autonomous as a single unit where as in the military the minimum maneuver unit is 3 in the USMC and 4 in the USA, and operations outside the wire are always supported by a robust network of ISR, air support and logistics. Doctrinely the US military strives for a 3-to-1 force ratio, LE hopes to have 2-to-1. Etc... LE routinely accepts "unknown" risk, doctrinally the US DoD does not do that. The biggest evidence though that discredits the comparison is the very recognition by the US DoD that apprehending a target is a much higher risk than killing them, hence we prefer to drone strike targets if at all possible because its lower risk.

As far as obligations: LE officers are not like military. They are civilians first and foremost and they can quit their job any time they want. They do not have robust survivor benefits and they don't fall under any special laws. They therefore can quit at any moment and they can't be ordered to assume a risk with a known detriment, like entering an active shooter situation in a grade school, alone. However, it is completely legal for me to order 20 enlisted to take a hill even if I have good reason to believe that 15 of them will die doing so. If anyone of them refuses that order, they are now deserters and are criminally liable. To compensate that we have robust survivor benefits for their dependents and family. 

I suggest reading some of the classical ethics behind UOF. Double-effect doctrine is something all officers should be familiar with in the military and it outlines how Western society justifies homicide in any instance. (Whether its a police involved shooting, war, self-defense, whatever have you.) 

[FLEA]

https://www.vulture.com/2021/02/gina-carano-fired-from-the-mandalorian-lucasfilm-star-wars.html#:~:text=12%2C 2021-,Gina Carano Fired From The,'Abhorrent' Social-Media Posts&text=The Mandalorian actress and MMA,went viral on social media.

 

I've been following this story in my feed and honestly, the biggest hypocrisy here, is by attempting to silence Gina Carano for her relatively benign post, they actually upheld the core point of her post. While I'm not a fan of the "compare everything to Hitler" cliche, nothing in her post attempts to glorify Hitler, or deflect blame onto Hitler's victims. In fact, she ends the post with a pretty honest question, "explain to me how this is different?" And rather than offering a rational explanation, people decided to silence her. 

Whats further infuriating, is it somehow became socially acceptable in the last decade for democrats to call Republicans Hitler, but pointing out that this division is what Hitler would have wanted is somehow wrong. 

[pawnman]

2 hours ago, brabus said:

Oct 2019 from what I found in a .69 sec google search. 
 

My general thought (not directed at Pawnman): Police do need to be held accountable, but they should be helped with better/more consistent training and their leadership needs to have their backs. I don’t mean cover up crimes, but stop throwing them under the bus the second some zero-context video hits the news. Let’s gather the facts before demonizing an officer; stop letting the media get away with ramming unchecked narratives down the public’s throats.

To this specific incident: The video sure doesn’t look good, but what’s the context, what happened in the preceding minutes or hours to this situation? Had the guy been getting in the police’s faces, touching them, ignoring commands for a long time? Had he threatened them verbally? Had they given him numerous warnings to disperse/get back?

Many of us have been in numerous situations killing people where some fucking dipshit who wasn’t there starts their virtuous armchair quarterbacking - how about said dipshit has the full picture before questioning or accusing those present in the moment. Again, the 10 sec clip doesn’t look great, but I will not judge this officer or any others until the full picture is determined. I wasn’t there, we’re any of you spear chuckers?

I've not seen many cops thrown under the bus.  Usually the opposite.

[FLEA]

1 minute ago, pawnman said:

I've not seen many cops thrown under the bus.  Usually the opposite.

Uh, are you serious? Any time a mayor decries an officer in her district, that would be the same as the President calling you a disgrace before your command finished their investigation. 

[brabus]

12 minutes ago, pawnman said:

I've not seen many cops thrown under the bus.  Usually the opposite.

Happens a ton. I have several friends who have quit because that specific problem (spineless leadership) was overpowering. They know many who have done the same. The analogy I can think of us relative to us is being in a wing where every debrief is preceded by the wing/cc saying you are a shit pilot and fucked this sortie away royally and will be held accountable via Q3, qual pulling, etc. Now commence tapes that show you actually executed the TTP quite well...doesn’t matter, the whole base already thinks you’re the world’s worst pilot. Tomorrow it happens to one of your bros. Still want to be a pilot in that wing?

Edited February 14, 2021 by brabus

[Homestar]

De-escalation training should be mandatory for all cities to obtain insurance. It protects all parties involved and when force is applied it can be reasonably assumed to have been the last resort. 
 

LEOs encounter way too much risk everyday to do otherwise. 

[pawnman]

4 hours ago, FLEA said:

Uh, are you serious? Any time a mayor decries an officer in her district, that would be the same as the President calling you a disgrace before your command finished their investigation. 

I'd feel worse for them if there were a consequence beyond "go sit at home and collect a paycheck for a month, then come back to work"

[SurelySerious]

6 minutes ago, pawnman said:

I'd feel worse for them if there were a consequence beyond "go sit at home and collect a paycheck for a month, then come back to work"

You must be a big fan of innocent until proven guilty. 

[pawnman]

10 minutes ago, SurelySerious said:

You must be a big fan of innocent until proven guilty. 

I'm also a fan of equality under the law.

[SocialD]

We have quite a few part timers on base that are full time LEO'S.  In the last 5 years or so, quite a few of them have left their LEO gigs for full time spots at the base.  Almost every one of them says the same thing...you're one edited cell phone clip away from fired or worse.  None of them felt like their bosses had their backs if anything hit the media.  They all seem to think it's just not worth the risk anymore.  I respect the hell out of them, but I don't envy the ones that remain.  

Edited February 14, 2021 by SocialD

[Buddy Spike]

1 hour ago, pawnman said:

I'd feel worse for them if there were a consequence beyond "go sit at home and collect a paycheck for a month, then come back to work"

If they're cleared of wrongdoing, why would there be additional consequences? Just because?

 

[pawnman]

3 minutes ago, Buddy Spike said:

If they're cleared of wrongdoing, why would there be additional consequences? Just because?

 

If they're cleared of wrongdoing, fine.  But there are far too many examples of cops who are fired by one city and hired a month later at another city.  

Additionally, the entire culture of the "thin blue line" and refusing to "rat out" your fellow officers means that a lot of those acquittals only come because fellow officers are intimidated into not testifying, even when there's clear evidence of wrong-doing.

Maybe you guys have faith in a system that acquits the cop who shot Philando Castile for complying with directions, or acquits two police officers for beating a man to death on camera, or finds no fault in police managing to kill and unarmed, handcuffed suspect already in custody.  To me, that doesn't look like accountability, no matter how many statements the mayor makes about it.

But I'm clearly outnumbered, so I'll tap out of this part of the conversation.  

[uhhello]

I would need a solid 7 figure salary to deal with what the everyday cop has to deal with.  Best case you're going home at the end of the day having not been involved in taking someone else's life or seeing one taken in front of you.  You know all the worst cases.  They can do everything right and they are still going to get grilled for a good chunk of time.  Then to top it off you're dealing with the absolute worst society has to offer every day and every shift.   Not good for your mental health.  
We at least get to go "somewhere" and deal with death/violence/you name it and then come home and not be exposed to it for the giant majority of career fields.  

That being said, that's no excuse for some of the folks caught on camera doing the shit they pull sometimes.  I went on a binge for a couple weeks watching first amendment auditors.  Some of the cops attitudes and actions exhibited didn't make them suitable for a third world mall cop let alone a cop in the USA.  All too often attitude and aggression come into play and they have to be the ones to win.  

I don't know what the answer is but one thing I know for sure is it's not less funding.  Crisis counselors and mental health frontline response instead of armed police to most of these instances where folks are shot is only going to lead to more folks hurt.  Cops can't allow their fellow cops fuck up on a regular basis and not do something about it.  There has to be more police accountability, not from some politician but from within.  I know that's hard but lots of career fields do it without issue.  

[Buddy Spike]

3 hours ago, pawnman said:

If they're cleared of wrongdoing, fine.  But there are far too many examples of cops who are fired by one city and hired a month later at another city.  

Additionally, the entire culture of the "thin blue line" and refusing to "rat out" your fellow officers means that a lot of those acquittals only come because fellow officers are intimidated into not testifying, even when there's clear evidence of wrong-doing.

Maybe you guys have faith in a system that acquits the cop who shot Philando Castile for complying with directions, or acquits two police officers for beating a man to death on camera, or finds no fault in police managing to kill and unarmed, handcuffed suspect already in custody.  To me, that doesn't look like accountability, no matter how many statements the mayor makes about it.

But I'm clearly outnumbered, so I'll tap out of this part of the conversation.  

That’s the problem, you’re buying a false narrative.

Philando Castile was armed, high, and not complying (reached into his pocket).  

You watch too many movies if you think “fellow officers are intimidated into not testifying.”

But hey, be the change you want to see.  Go join your local agency’s reserve division and see what it’s all about.  

[Lord Ratner]

4 hours ago, pawnman said:

If they're cleared of wrongdoing, fine.  But there are far too many examples of cops who are fired by one city and hired a month later at another city.  

Additionally, the entire culture of the "thin blue line" and refusing to "rat out" your fellow officers means that a lot of those acquittals only come because fellow officers are intimidated into not testifying, even when there's clear evidence of wrong-doing.

Maybe you guys have faith in a system that acquits the cop who shot Philando Castile for complying with directions, or acquits two police officers for beating a man to death on camera, or finds no fault in police managing to kill and unarmed, handcuffed suspect already in custody.  To me, that doesn't look like accountability, no matter how many statements the mayor makes about it.

But I'm clearly outnumbered, so I'll tap out of this part of the conversation.  

I have faith in the country that enslaved black people, imprisoned japanese people, and wiped out the Native Americans, and a military that played with prisoners at Abu Ghraib and killed civilians at My Lai because I'm capable of recognizing failures without using them disproportionately to characterize the entire system.

 

The perpetual insistence in characterizing "the system" as broken when it is by far a successful and predictable system, with notable deviations, when compared to the rest of the world, is troubling. Just another case of anecdote over statistics.

[brabus]

 

6 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

I'm capable of recognizing failures without using them disproportionately to characterize the entire system.

 

Exactly. But on the other hand, did you know the B-1 community has a systemic problem with child porn.
 

https://www.argusleader.com/story/news/crime/2015/05/12/ellsworth-pilot-sentenced-child-pornography/27166693/

Edited February 15, 2021 by brabus

[pawnman]

10 hours ago, Buddy Spike said:

That’s the problem, you’re buying a false narrative.

Philando Castile was armed, high, and not complying (reached into his pocket).  

You watch too many movies if you think “fellow officers are intimidated into not testifying.”

But hey, be the change you want to see.  Go join your local agency’s reserve division and see what it’s all about.  

ITS ON FUCKING VIDEO!

He told the cop he was armed and asked for instructions. The cop said he wanted his ID. Castile TOLD him the ID was in his pocket.  Cop still wanted ID.  Castile reached for the ID and the cop shot him.

Being high is not a capital offense. 

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, brabus said:

 

Exactly. But on the other hand, did you know the B-1 community has a systemic problem with child porn.
 

https://www.argusleader.com/story/news/crime/2015/05/12/ellsworth-pilot-sentenced-child-pornography/27166693/

Didn't have a whole lot of fellow B-1 folks rushing to his defense.

Maybe we just need an aviator union that forces every pilot to side with every other pilot, no matter what they've done wrong.

[brabus]

22 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Didn't have a whole lot of fellow B-1 folks rushing to his defense.

Maybe we just need an aviator union that forces every pilot to side with every other pilot, no matter what they've done wrong.

Exactly, haven’t met a single cop or heard a single cop (on podcasts, etc.) blindly defend Floyd, for example. They’ve all cringed at what happened. The point of my sarcastic post was to highlight how stupid it is to paint entire communities, organizations, etc. with a broad brush. Terms like “systemic” are wildly overreaching and only contribute to extremely misleading “10% true” narratives. This isn’t roll call, it’s real life...wildly embellished bullshit has no place here, yet that’s what the media, govt, and the masses love. 

[Buddy Spike]

46 minutes ago, pawnman said:

ITS ON FUCKING VIDEO!

He told the cop he was armed and asked for instructions. The cop said he wanted his ID. Castile TOLD him the ID was in his pocket.  Cop still wanted ID.  Castile reached for the ID and the cop shot him.

Being high is not a capital offense. 

Yup.  I watched the video.  Maybe you should too.  He was armed, told the officer he was armed, and the officer told him not to reach for it.  He did it anyway.  He was high and not comprehending instructions.  Whether he was reaching for his ID or the weapon is obviously up for debate. 

You’re right, being high is not a capital offense.  But it is DUI, child endangerment and illegally carrying a weapon.

Like I said, join your local reserve division.  Get the actual training.  Find out for yourself instead of throwing rocks from the cheap seats.  

Here’s the actual dashcam.  As usual, your narrative is incorrect:

 

[pawnman]

28 minutes ago, brabus said:

Exactly, haven’t met a single cop or heard a single cop (on podcasts, etc.) blindly defend Floyd, for example. They’ve all cringed at what happened. The point of my sarcastic post was to highlight how stupid it is to paint entire communities, organizations, etc. with a broad brush. Terms like “systemic” are wildly overreaching and only contribute to extremely misleading “10% true” narratives. This isn’t roll call, it’s real life...wildly embellished bullshit has no place here, yet that’s what the media, govt, and the masses love. 

So we should expect those cops standing around while Chauvin killed Floyd to testify at Chauvin's trial, then?

[Buddy Spike]

Just now, pawnman said:

So we should expect those cops standing around while Chauvin killed Floyd to testify at Chauvin's trial, then?

Chauvin didn’t kill Floyd.  A lethal dose of Fentanyl, Meth, alcohol, and pre-existing issues from COVID did. Good lord, dude.  You just slurp up all the hysterical false narratives, don’t you?  

[ClearedHot]

13 hours ago, uhhello said:

That being said, that's no excuse for some of the folks caught on camera doing the shit they pull sometimes.  I went on a binge for a couple weeks watching first amendment auditors.  Some of the cops attitudes and actions exhibited didn't make them suitable for a third world mall cop let alone a cop in the USA.  All too often attitude and aggression come into play and they have to be the ones to win. 

Same here and it really changed my thinking...and my brother is a deputy chief of police!  I support police officers but it is truly sad that many, including from federal agencies like the FBI, don't know or care about the Constitution or the oath they took to protect and defend it.

If anyone is interested I recommend you check out a few channels on Youtube including Audit the Audit which does a great job of breaking down some of the more egregious cases and reviews them with case law.  News Now Houston is the "godfather" of first amendment auditors and does a much better job of remaining calm than some of the others that default to screaming at the police.  Honor Your Oath is run by Jeff Gray and he is again another one of the calm ones who never insults the police but he does assert his (our) rights.  Finally, The Battousai is run by Phillip Turner, his arrest and subsequent lawsuit  Turner Versus Driver resulted in a landmark ruling on police conduct.

[pawnman]

39 minutes ago, Buddy Spike said:

Chauvin didn’t kill Floyd.  A lethal dose of Fentanyl, Meth, alcohol, and pre-existing issues from COVID did. Good lord, dude.  You just slurp up all the hysterical false narratives, don’t you?  

You think he'd have just collapsed and died on the street without Chauvin kneeling on his windpipe?

Fucking hell, no wonder you think cops are perfect.

Can't wait for the defense of the guy who shot Tamir Rice next.