The WOKE Thread (Merged from WTF?)

[busdriver]

23 minutes ago, pawnman said:

kneeling on his windpipe?

He was kneeling on the side of his neck not the windpipe, so half of a carotid choke.  I would guess the other side artery was likely restricted to some degree, but not fully since he knelt there for a long fucking time before he became unresponsive.

Watch the Tony Timpa video.  Died the same way, no knee on neck.  The knee is a red herring, the confounding factors (for both cases, in my estimation) is a prone restraint and drug related physiology.  So not being able to breath is true, but it had nothing to do with the knee.

Qualified immunity is a problem.  I'm not convinced just erasing it is a good idea, but it's something to look at that could allow better accountability of department policy within the current system.

Having higher standards for police officers in general is warranted.  With that comes a need for more money not less however.  More training time requires more officers on the pay-role to cover the additional requirement.  Want higher caliber people?  Be prepared to pay them more.  Etc. etc.

[Lord Ratner]

2 hours ago, pawnman said:

ITS ON FUCKING VIDEO!

He told the cop he was armed and asked for instructions. The cop said he wanted his ID. Castile TOLD him the ID was in his pocket.  Cop still wanted ID.  Castile reached for the ID and the cop shot him.

Being high is not a capital offense. 

I'm with you on Castile, for clarity. It's the perfect example of a failure of policing, and why we need better training and better funding for the cops.

 

But it is not representative of American policing as a whole.

[busdriver]

1 hour ago, Buddy Spike said:

.....  He was armed, told the officer he was armed, and the officer told him not to reach for it.  .....

......He did it anyway.....

......Whether he was reaching for his ID or the weapon is obviously up for debate....

 ....But it is DUI, child endangerment and illegally carrying a weapon.

..... Get the actual training...  

Think about what you posted for a second.  Assume Castile was a 100% honest, just high, but otherwise legally armed.  He told the officer he was armed and where the gun was located.

Was the officer reasonable in the way he handled a legally armed citizen?  I would contend, no. 

Smelling weed is not an indication that the dude is a violent junkie.  It's weed not PCP.

The training is the problem.  And I'm well aware of what gets taught.

[jazzdude]

Having higher standards for police officers in general is warranted.  With that comes a need for more money not less however.  More training time requires more officers on the pay-role to cover the additional requirement.  Want higher caliber people?  Be prepared to pay them more.  Etc. etc.

So where's that extra money coming from? Not sure people have an appetite for increased taxes, especially if they fear police (government) is corrupt.

I would also assume that civil forfeiture laws would also need to be tightened, which puts additional budgetary pressure on police departments.

I'd bet police aren't going to get more funding until the police start rebuilding the relationship with their community first, and that solution is very much a local one.

Even though it's primarily a local issue, our modern lives also include going to other communities routinely. Things like going to the next town over to shop/attend events/etc. So the issue isn't completely a local one.

[Disco_Nav963]

45 minutes ago, busdriver said:

He was kneeling on the side of his neck not the windpipe, so half of a carotid choke.  I would guess the other side artery was likely restricted to some degree, but not fully since he knelt there for a long fucking time before he became unresponsive.

Watch the Tony Timpa video.  Died the same way, no knee on neck.  The knee is a red herring, the confounding factors (for both cases, in my estimation) is a prone restraint and drug related physiology.  So not being able to breath is true, but it had nothing to do with the knee.

Qualified immunity is a problem.  I'm not convinced just erasing it is a good idea, but it's something to look at that could allow better accountability of department policy within the current system.

Having higher standards for police officers in general is warranted.  With that comes a need for more money not less however.  More training time requires more officers on the pay-role to cover the additional requirement.  Want higher caliber people?  Be prepared to pay them more.  Etc. etc.

Matt Yglesias (liberal writer who can do math and isn't into bumper sticker solutions) wrote a lengthy column on exactly this point (more funding, not less): Fixing the police will take more funding, not less

[Buddy Spike]

2 hours ago, pawnman said:

You think he'd have just collapsed and died on the street without Chauvin kneeling on his windpipe?

Fucking hell, no wonder you think cops are perfect.

Can't wait for the defense of the guy who shot Tamir Rice next.

He wouldn't have died had he not been struggling.  He was complaining about not being able to breathe WELL before Chauvin was kneeling on the back of his neck (not his windpipe).  Chauvin was also acting IAW department policy. The length of time could point to excessive force, but Floyd died because of Floyd's poor life choices.

I don't think cops are perfect.  I think you're caught up in the emotion and slurping the bullshit that the media is feeding you.

 

[Buddy Spike]

1 hour ago, busdriver said:

Think about what you posted for a second.  Assume Castile was a 100% honest, just high, but otherwise legally armed.  He told the officer he was armed and where the gun was located.

Was the officer reasonable in the way he handled a legally armed citizen?  I would contend, no. 

Smelling weed is not an indication that the dude is a violent junkie.  It's weed not PCP.

The training is the problem.  And I'm well aware of what gets taught.

He was not legally armed. It is illegal to carry a firearm while under influence of drugs.

Castile said he had a weapon and then reached for it despite being told not to.

 

[FLEA]

1 minute ago, Buddy Spike said:

He was not legally armed. It is illegal to carry a firearm while under influence of drugs.

Castile said he had a weapon and then reached for it despite being told not to.

 

One important fact is that the police officer in this case, was in fact indicted, and sat before 12 citizens who judged him in a trial. 12 people who were vetted by both the prosecution and defense for the ability to be objective, saw ALL the evidence in the case, and heard both stories. Then, all 12 unanimously decided this officer was not guilty based on EVERYTHING we knew about the event, and acquitted him. That's a pretty big deal in my opinion. 

[Buddy Spike]

Just now, FLEA said:

One important fact is that the police officer in this case, was in fact indicted, and sat before 12 citizens who judged him in a trial. 12 people who were vetted by both the prosecution and defense for the ability to be objective, saw ALL the evidence in the case, and heard both stories. Then, all 12 unanimously decided this officer was not guilty based on EVERYTHING we knew about the event, and acquitted him. That's a pretty big deal in my opinion. 

Yup.  But according to the peanut gallery, he's still guilty.

[Clark Griswold]

Checkmate

VIDEO: Cop plays Beatles' 'Yesterday' while cellphone camera records him, presumably to trigger copyright claim so clip is blocked - TheBlaze

 

[pawnman]

57 minutes ago, Clark Griswold said:

Checkmate

VIDEO: Cop plays Beatles' 'Yesterday' while cellphone camera records him, presumably to trigger copyright claim so clip is blocked - TheBlaze

 

[arg]

6 hours ago, FLEA said:

One important fact is that the police officer in this case, was in fact indicted, and sat before 12 citizens who judged him in a trial. 12 people who were vetted by both the prosecution and defense for the ability to be objective, saw ALL the evidence in the case, and heard both stories. Then, all 12 unanimously decided this officer was not guilty based on EVERYTHING we knew about the event, and acquitted him. That's a pretty big deal in my opinion. 

And OJ was found not guilty. A lot of folks don't believe that.

[slc]

24 minutes ago, arg said:

And OJ was found not guilty. A lot of folks don't believe that.

If the glove don't fit, you must acquit!!!!!!!

[busdriver]

7 hours ago, Buddy Spike said:

He was not legally armed. It is illegal to carry a firearm while under influence of drugs.

Castile said he had a weapon and then reached for it despite being told not to.

As I said, "but otherwise legally armed." 

His weapon and his ID were co-located, which he expressed.  I went back and re-watched the video, for whatever reason I thought he had said that, but didn't see it.  

I don't think he is guilty of murder.  I think he could have led that situation to a better outcome.  My personal opinion is as an armed agent of the state, that is his responsibility.  I understand that the law doesn't support my opinion, it is just my opinion.

Castile clearly fucked up by not telling the cop where his wallet was located.  He could have done better to not get himself killed, but he is not an armed agent of the state.

I get that it's a hard job and their life is potentially on the line, I get that demanding perfection is unrealistic.  I get that cops are not evil assholes trying to fuck up people's lives.  But they are armed agents of the state, they should have a higher level of responsibility. 

Officer safety has been used as rationale for changes that help cops and not the public for a very long time.  I've seen the attitude among family and friends that are police officers.

[Buddy Spike]

On 2/15/2021 at 7:43 PM, busdriver said:

As I said, "but otherwise legally armed." 

His weapon and his ID were co-located, which he expressed.  I went back and re-watched the video, for whatever reason I thought he had said that, but didn't see it.  

I don't think he is guilty of murder.  I think he could have led that situation to a better outcome.  My personal opinion is as an armed agent of the state, that is his responsibility.  I understand that the law doesn't support my opinion, it is just my opinion.

Castile clearly fucked up by not telling the cop where his wallet was located.  He could have done better to not get himself killed, but he is not an armed agent of the state.

I get that it's a hard job and their life is potentially on the line, I get that demanding perfection is unrealistic.  I get that cops are not evil assholes trying to fuck up people's lives.  But they are armed agents of the state, they should have a higher level of responsibility. 

Officer safety has been used as rationale for changes that help cops and not the public for a very long time.  I've seen the attitude among family and friends that are police officers.

That's like saying "otherwise legally driving" when your BAC is above the limit. It is a very important point.  Castille's actions led to his own death.  Had he been carrying legally, not endangering his child, and complied with officer instructions, he would be alive today.  

I can show you hundreds of examples of officers in this situation who hesitated and wound up dead or bleeding on the side of the road. Officer safety is a big deal. They have a right to go home after the end of the shift, and asking cops to sacrifice safety in the name of propping up criminals is ludicrous.  

There are millions of police interactions that happen daily that you never hear about because they are uneventful and usually positive. The 0.01% make the news (in the most slanted way possible for ratings and a narrative that NEVER gets corrected when the facts come out) and you want to make it even more dangerous for law enforcement as a result (i.e. - removing qualified immunity, which is idiotic).  

It's the same flawed logic as the "bAn AsSaULT rIfLeS" crowd after a psychopath shoots up a school with a handgun. 

Edited February 17, 2021 by Buddy Spike

[busdriver]

14 hours ago, Buddy Spike said:

That's like saying "otherwise legally driving" when your BAC is above the limit. It is a very important point. 

I can show you hundreds of examples of officers in this situation who hesitated and wound up dead or bleeding on the side of the road. Officer safety is a big deal. They have a right to go home after the end of the shift, and asking cops to sacrifice safety in the name of propping up criminals is ludicrous.  

There are millions of police interactions that happen daily that you never hear about because they are uneventful and usually positive. The 0.01% make the news (in the most slanted way possible for ratings and a narrative that NEVER gets corrected when the facts come out) and you want to make it even more dangerous for law enforcement as a result (i.e. - removing qualified immunity, which is idiotic).  

It's the same flawed logic as the "bAn AsSaULT rIfLeS" crowd after a psychopath shoots up a school with a handgun. 

Point 1: The only way it would be relevant is if his intoxication level directly impacted his ability to comprehend what the officer was telling him.  Which is possible, but as yet not what I'm seeing here or elsewhere.  Otherwise, it's a non-sequitur.

Point 2/3:  The threat to officers is something like 150-200ish killed in the line of duty a year, right?  So in the millions of officer interactions that happen in this country.....just like the threat of civilians getting killed by errant cops, the various sides of this argument overstate the severity of what is going on. 

I agree the media malfeasance is gross.  That said, the overall crime rate has gone down a lot in the past couple decades, but the number of civilian deaths from officer involved altercations has not matched the decline.  So something is out of whack.  I'm not saying they're running around maliciously murdering people.

The entire framing of the discussion (cops vs criminals, "sacrifice safety in the name of propping up criminals" or "I don't care if it's an 11 year old, I'm going home tonight!" ) guarantees problems.

I don't think completely eliminating qualified immunity is a good idea.  However departments get away with terrible policy and practices, reference the SWAT raid that fucked up an infant when an officer lobbed a flash bang (which landed in the crib) instead of rolling it along the floor.  Officer acquitted.  Maybe that officer should have been acquitted if he was following his training.  But that technique is negligent, and that isn't news to people who actually know what they're doing.

I do appreciate that policing in the country has come a long way since the days of the stake out squad.  That doesn't mean there isn't room to improve.  And yes, I do expect police officers to assume risk on behalf of the civilians they are sworn to serve.

[Buddy Spike]

9 hours ago, busdriver said:

Point 1: The only way it would be relevant is if his intoxication level directly impacted his ability to comprehend what the officer was telling him.  Which is possible, but as yet not what I'm seeing here or elsewhere.  Otherwise, it's a non-sequitur.

First, he failed to comply.  So, you're right, whether it was because he was high or not is irrelevant.  He reached down despite being told not to.  

What IS relevant is that he was illegally carrying a firearm, which throws the whole "he was a good guy with a concealed carry permit exercising his rights" argument out the window.  He was not legally exercising his 2A rights.  He was also endangering a child in the process. 

9 hours ago, busdriver said:

Point 2/3:  The threat to officers is something like 150-200ish killed in the line of duty a year, right?  So in the millions of officer interactions that happen in this country.....just like the threat of civilians getting killed by errant cops, the various sides of this argument overstate the severity of what is going on. 

This is a bit of a fallacy.  There are even fewer aviation crashes per year as a percentage of flight hours, should we therefore not have boldface and emergency procedures because the risk is small?  Of course not. Every officer should approach every interaction as if it could become a lethal encounter, because it absolutely can. Complacency kills.

On the other side, the "gross overstatement" is the "systemic racism" myth. With few exceptions, in nearly every case the media has latched onto, if the "victim" had A) been a law abiding citizen and/or B) complied with officer instructions and not resisted, that person would be alive today. This myth that police are going around indiscriminately killing minorities is what's getting good cops killed. Hesitation kills just as much as complacency.

You are correct in that law enforcement assumes a higher level of risk. They should be paid more and given more training. They should also not be expected to be the world's mental health counselors and social workers, but that's another story altogether.

Like any other profession (including/especially the military), law enforcement involves a huge cross section of individuals. Some are shitbags. The shitbags usually get run out, but sometimes they end up in leadership just like in the military. I agree that the bad make us all look bad, but the answer is not to make the job harder and run off more good people by removing protections that allow cops to do their jobs. And the answer is certainly not vilifying police with false narratives about racism and "he was a good boy who didn't do anything wrong" lies.

In my experience, the majority of people who put on the badge (just like the military who put on the uniform) are good, honest, hardworking people who want to make a difference in their communities and accept the fact that they're doing it for shit pay and a growing sentiment that they're somehow the enemy.  

As I mentioned earlier, I recommend you see for yourself. Do a ride along. Take a citizens' academy. Or even join your local reserve division.  It's easy to throw stones from the cheap seats, but unless you've done it, you're not really speaking from a knowledgeable position. 

 

[ClearedHot]

Depending on what data you look at, as an American you are between 8 and 50+ times more likely to be killed by a police officer than a terrorist.  We spend trillions of $ on defense which is obviously needed but perhaps we should focus a bit more on the internal.  I am in no way saying all the blame lays with police officers (my brother is a cop), but maybe we can help the entire system with a bit more understanding and new approaches.

As a small segway, the following is a list of other things that are more likely to kill you than a terrorist:

Brain-Eating Parasites, Texting While Driving, Accident caused by a Toddler, Lightning, A Deer, Falling Out of Bed, Food Poisoning, Choking On Food, Bathtub Accident, Financial Crash, Being crushed to death, Medical Errors and my personal favorite...Autoerotic Asphyxiation.

[pawnman]

2 hours ago, Buddy Spike said:

First, he failed to comply.  So, you're right, whether it was because he was high or not is irrelevant.  He reached down despite being told not to.  

What IS relevant is that he was illegally carrying a firearm, which throws the whole "he was a good guy with a concealed carry permit exercising his rights" argument out the window.  He was not legally exercising his 2A rights.  He was also endangering a child in the process. 

This is a bit of a fallacy.  There are even fewer aviation crashes per year as a percentage of flight hours, should we therefore not have boldface and emergency procedures because the risk is small?  Of course not. Every officer should approach every interaction as if it could become a lethal encounter, because it absolutely can. Complacency kills.

On the other side, the "gross overstatement" is the "systemic racism" myth. With few exceptions, in nearly every case the media has latched onto, if the "victim" had A) been a law abiding citizen and/or B) complied with officer instructions and not resisted, that person would be alive today. This myth that police are going around indiscriminately killing minorities is what's getting good cops killed. Hesitation kills just as much as complacency.

You are correct in that law enforcement assumes a higher level of risk. They should be paid more and given more training. They should also not be expected to be the world's mental health counselors and social workers, but that's another story altogether.

Like any other profession (including/especially the military), law enforcement involves a huge cross section of individuals. Some are shitbags. The shitbags usually get run out, but sometimes they end up in leadership just like in the military. I agree that the bad make us all look bad, but the answer is not to make the job harder and run off more good people by removing protections that allow cops to do their jobs. And the answer is certainly not vilifying police with false narratives about racism and "he was a good boy who didn't do anything wrong" lies.

In my experience, the majority of people who put on the badge (just like the military who put on the uniform) are good, honest, hardworking people who want to make a difference in their communities and accept the fact that they're doing it for shit pay and a growing sentiment that they're somehow the enemy.  

As I mentioned earlier, I recommend you see for yourself. Do a ride along. Take a citizens' academy. Or even join your local reserve division.  It's easy to throw stones from the cheap seats, but unless you've done it, you're not really speaking from a knowledgeable position. 

 

In the words of comedian Steve Hoffstetter - 'I’ve never flown a helicopter. But if I saw one in a tree, I could still be like, ‘Dude fucked up. It’s not supposed to be up there. That’s pilot error.'

[Buddy Spike]

1 minute ago, pawnman said:

In the words of comedian Steve Hoffstetter - 'I’ve never flown a helicopter. But if I saw one in a tree, I could still be like, ‘Dude fucked up. It’s not supposed to be up there. That’s pilot error.'

Swell.  You're actually making my point.

As pilots (maybe you're a fucking nav, in which case, disregard.  No one cares about your opinion anyway), we know not to speculate on mishaps until the facts come out and an SIB has time to do an investigation.  That helicopter crash may not have been pilot error, but the media will still run with their first speculative headlines and "perception becomes reality" despite the facts.

You can do better than quoting comedians to try to prove your point.

 

[pawnman]

3 minutes ago, Buddy Spike said:

Swell.  You're actually making my point.

As pilots (maybe you're a fucking nav, in which case, disregard.  No one cares about your opinion anyway), we know not to speculate on mishaps until the facts come out and an SIB has time to do an investigation.  That helicopter crash may not have been pilot error, but the media will still run with their first speculative headlines and "perception becomes reality" despite the facts.

You can do better than quoting comedians to try to prove your point.

 

And I'd think someone who grew up in the debrief and accountability culture of aviation would be more willing to apply that culture to our civil servants, but here we are.

[Buddy Spike]

Just now, pawnman said:

And I'd think someone who grew up in the debrief and accountability culture of aviation would be more willing to apply that culture to our civil servants, but here we are.

The fact that you think there is no "debrief and accountability culture" in law enforcement only further proves your ignorance.

Sign up. Show them how it's done.

[pawnman]

Just now, Buddy Spike said:

The fact that you think there is no "debrief and accountability culture" in law enforcement only further proves your ignorance.

Sign up. Show them how it's done.

You really think there's the same level of accountability?  That the whole "thin blue line" thing is just a liberal conspiracy theory to make police look bad?  That the incredibly low conviction rate of officers caught ON CAMERA using force on unarmed people is because all cops are doing a really great job?

And you think I'VE swallowed the propaganda. 

[Buddy Spike]

Just now, pawnman said:

You really think there's the same level of accountability?  That the whole "thin blue line" thing is just a liberal conspiracy theory to make police look bad?  That the incredibly low conviction rate of officers caught ON CAMERA using force on unarmed people is because all cops are doing a really great job?

And you think I'VE swallowed the propaganda. 

The "thin blue line thing" isn't a liberal conspiracy, but its meaning has been twisted by the anti-law enforcement crowd.

Are you implying that you cannot legitimately use force on unarmed people?  

[pawnman]

Just now, Buddy Spike said:

The "thin blue line thing" isn't a liberal conspiracy, but its meaning has been twisted by the anti-law enforcement crowd.

Are you implying that you cannot legitimately use force on unarmed people?  

I'm implying it happens more often than it should, and there's no accountability.  There's a standard set of maneuvers:

1. Suspect was dangerous even though they were armed

2. Suspect had a bunch of prior problems with the law (even though this is completely irrelevant to the event being discussed).

3. Cops are heroes who risk their lives, cop safety should come first (if that's the case...don't take a job where your safety is in danger, maybe?)

4. Police union protests any politician that tries to hold said cop accountable.

There's a plethora of cases to choose from.  Go ahead, defend the shooting of Tamir Rice.  Or the beating of Kelley Thomas.  Or Freddie Gray - killing a suspect IN CUSTODY?  Come on.