The WOKE Thread (Merged from WTF?)

[FLEA]

49 minutes ago, pawnman said:

National average for cosmetologists to be certified is 1300 hours. 

National average for police is 670 hours. 

https://www.insider.com/some-police-academies-require-fewer-hours-of-training-plumbing-2020-6

For their basic training..... The article even tells you this. 

[pawnman]

15 minutes ago, FLEA said:

For their basic training..... The article even tells you this. 

How much of it do they have to complete before they give them a gun and send them on calls?

Also from the article: 

Quote

 The organization found that 36 states allow officers to start working for the force before attending basic training.

I didn't see anything in the article that talked about them doing another 600 hours of training before they were allowed to work, though.  Do you have some data on how much training police get, on average, before they are given a gun and put on the beat?  It's not in this article.

Edited February 19, 2021 by pawnman

[jazzdude]

Does a new cop get a gun if they are working before training?

What kind of work are they doing? Ride alongs? Office tasks? Getting coffee and stocking the snack bar? You know, typical AF casual LT type stuff. All of that is good, and even though it may not be loggable training, introduces the new officer to the office and work environment. If you don't think it's good or value added, well, write your congressman and point out the F/W/A of the AF paying casual LTs waiting to start UPT.

A spot check on the site you linked to for barber licensing was missing information. It missed that my current state accepts either 1300 hours of school, *or* 2000 hours of apprenticeship under a licensed master barber. Someone doing the latter path could be working on customers on day 1 as an apprentice working under someone else's license.

That's not to say that more upfront training, or an apprenticeship type approach (buddy system while out working in public, especially early on) couldn't be helpful in creating a better police force.

But again, it comes down to money. If that's something we want as the public, we need to pay for it through taxes (and ensure that the government uses those taxes for the intended purpose).

[jazzdude]

Speaking of money, the whole refund the police movement got pretty twisted.

It worked for Camden, NJ.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/09/us/disband-police-camden-new-jersey-trnd/index.html
But that was not just cutting funding (which did come back), it was a complete reset of their police force, to include firing many police officers (due to corruption in the force) and a new philosophy in community relations (being part of the community, rather than seeing the community as bad or the enemy).

I think we'd get much more traction in positive police and community relations and trust taking the approach Camden did, than from more police training etc.

[FLEA]

59 minutes ago, pawnman said:

How much of it do they have to complete before they give them a gun and send them on calls?

Also from the article: 

I didn't see anything in the article that talked about them doing another 600 hours of training before they were allowed to work, though.  Do you have some data on how much training police get, on average, before they are given a gun and put on the beat?  It's not in this article.

It's going to vary by department. Remember, police officers very on everything from Park Rangers to Native Reservation constables. Based on their jursdiction, type of crime interest, level of government, etc... It's going to vary. As I said, my wife, who worked for major metropolitan area, had 6 months of academy training (of which she carried a gun through near all of it technically, as firearms safety is a large part of their training) 

After 6 months, she was in field training, where she was exposed to the public but under extreme supervision and with 0 authority to make a decision or direct a scene. Only after she demonstrated her competence through several weeks of that was she fully credentialized through her agency to work autonomously. 

Also, researching cosmotology school a bit more, it would seem that's a bit of a false comparison. While it's true a full cosmotology program is nearly 40 weeks, this includes multiple occupations. Hair dresser, nails, skin, waxing, eyebrows, makeup, etc... Very few people are actually going to go through a full cosmotology program to be licensed. They will do 1 or 2 programs and build their career around that. 

 

 

[ViperMan]

19 hours ago, Homestar said:

I'm simply suggesting that the evidence shows that blacks are disproportionatly more likely to die from a police encounter than whites.

Do you acknowledge that police officers are much more likely to be involved in a violent confrontations with minorities as opposed to whites?

[ViperMan]

18 hours ago, HeloDude said:

For starters, get rid of victimless crime laws.  I’m not saying that this does/does not have a specific racial element to it, but rather, why have any law enforcement action if there is no victim?  Remember Eric Garner being originally confronted for selling loose cigarettes?  Confrontation should have never occurred...

I agree with your general sentiment, but honestly, what is a victimless crime? If I don't pay my taxes, that's victimless, right? I mean, I should be allowed to not pay a dime in property taxes but keep my house, right?

Likewise I should be allowed to sell an otherwise regulated product (cigarettes) whilst others abide the rules, thereby taking advantage of those who do, right?

I'm in favor of the libertarian sentiment that I should be basically allowed to do whatever I want, but that's not our society. There are rules (this isn't 'Nam). If rules are going to be enforced selectively, that's a massive problem. And if we're being real, the only reason Eric Garner was even able to sell cigarettes is because other people were following the rules, which is the definition of wrong, and decidedly not why our laws exist.

Edited February 19, 2021 by ViperMan
clarity

[ViperMan]

12 hours ago, pawnman said:

A lot more than we currently have.  When cosmetologists need twice as many hours of training as cops, it really shows where we are putting our effort.

 

5 hours ago, pawnman said:

National average for cosmetologists to be certified is 1300 hours. 

National average for police is 670 hours. 

https://www.insider.com/some-police-academies-require-fewer-hours-of-training-plumbing-2020-6

Comparing required, necessary governmental functions (police) to not-required, unnecessary commercial functions (cosmetology) is apples to oranges and is a red herring.

Much (most) of the ridiculous training, certification, and licensure that is attendant of certain professions is protectionism and regulatory capture - implemented in order to prevent others from entering a given market - and thus has little to do with the actually achieving proficiency in a given profession. Or do you actually think the 1300-2000 hours of training required to be "certified" to cut hair or paint nails is necessary? I'm sure each of the CBTs about hair-curlers are just bursting with new information and that if you miss a bullet point it's gone forever. It's ridiculous on it's face to license someone to cut hair. It's even more ridiculous that these licenses need to be "renewed." Please.

So let's not draw invalid conclusions comparing "trainings" that serve wildly different purposes.

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, ViperMan said:

 

Comparing required, necessary governmental functions (police) to not-required, unnecessary commercial functions (cosmetology) is apples to oranges and is a red herring.

Much (most) of the ridiculous training, certification, and licensure that is attendant of certain professions is protectionism and regulatory capture - implemented in order to prevent others from entering a given market - and thus has little to do with the actually achieving proficiency in a given profession. Or do you actually think the 1300-2000 hours of training required to be "certified" to cut hair or paint nails is necessary? I'm sure each of the CBTs about hair-curlers are just bursting with new information and that if you miss a bullet point it's gone forever. It's ridiculous on it's face to license someone to cut hair. It's even more ridiculous that these licenses need to be "renewed." Please.

So let's not draw invalid conclusions comparing "trainings" that serve wildly different purposes.

Maybe it is overblown for cosmetologists...but I think it shows where the priorities are for state and city governments. 

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, ViperMan said:

I agree with your general sentiment, but honestly, what is a victimless crime? If I don't pay my taxes, that's victimless, right? I mean, I should be allowed to not pay a dime in property taxes but keep my house, right?

Likewise I should be allowed to sell an otherwise regulated product (cigarettes) whilst others abide the rules, thereby taking advantage of those who do, right?

I'm in favor of the libertarian sentiment that I should be basically allowed to do whatever I want, but that's not our society. There are rules (this isn't 'Nam). If rules are going to be enforced selectively, that's a massive problem. And if we're being real, the only reason Eric Garner was even able to sell cigarettes is because other people were following the rules, which is the definition of wrong, and decidedly not why our laws exist.

Could have been a simple ticket and a fine. 

[ViperMan]

38 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Maybe it is overblown for cosmetologists...but I think it shows where the priorities are for state and city governments. 

Right. Money.

36 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Could have been a simple ticket and a fine. 

I agree, and it probably would have been had he not already been repeatedly arrested for the same crime (https://www.wsj.com/articles/new-york-city-police-officer-wont-face-criminal-charges-in-eric-garner-death-1417635275). Something tells me he's not getting the message? I don't know, but I get the feeling this guy decided he doesn't care about certain laws or consequences. Want to change a law? Awesome, there are ways to do that in our society, but continual and open disregard for the enforcement arm of our government is not one of them.

"He has a criminal record that includes more than 30 arrests dating back to 1980 on charges such as assault, resisting arrest and grand larceny. An official said the charges include several incidents in which he was arrested for selling unlicensed cigarettes."

How many posting on this message board can relate to the type of life this guy leads? Has any of us been arrested 30 times? For the same crime? Would any of us resist arrest? Or would you rather just have your day in court?

Here's video with as much context as I could find. The first minute has all the context required to establish the type of interaction it was. The officers attempted reasoning with him first. Attempted/offered a gentle arrest, which was rejected, and then escalated. I'm not saying that he deserved to die. I'm saying that this is yet another instance where circumstances are vital to understanding the whole picture. Here, this has been intentionally misrepresented in order to help paint a picture and establish a narrative that just simply isn't true.

 

[17D_guy]

31 minutes ago, ViperMan said:

Right. Money.

I agree, and it probably would have been had he not already been repeatedly arrested for the same crime (https://www.wsj.com/articles/new-york-city-police-officer-wont-face-criminal-charges-in-eric-garner-death-1417635275). Something tells me he's not getting the message? I don't know, but I get the feeling this guy decided he doesn't care about certain laws or consequences. Want to change a law? Awesome, there are ways to do that in our society, but continual and open disregard for the enforcement arm of our government is not one of them.

"He has a criminal record that includes more than 30 arrests dating back to 1980 on charges such as assault, resisting arrest and grand larceny. An official said the charges include several incidents in which he was arrested for selling unlicensed cigarettes."

How many posting on this message board can relate to the type of life this guy leads? Has any of us been arrested 30 times? For the same crime? Would any of us resist arrest? Or would you rather just have your day in court?

Here's video with as much context as I could find. The first minute has all the context required to establish the type of interaction it was. The officers attempted reasoning with him first. Attempted/offered a gentle arrest, which was rejected, and then escalated. I'm not saying that he deserved to die. I'm saying that this is yet another instance where circumstances are vital to understanding the whole picture. Here, this has been intentionally misrepresented in order to help paint a picture and establish a narrative that just simply isn't true.

 

Quote

I'm not saying that he deserved to die

You sure?  Pretty sure you spent most of that post showing reasons he should die, and 1 line saying he shouldn't.

Quote

Here, this has been intentionally misrepresented in order to help paint a picture and establish a narrative that just simply isn't true.

I've watched the whole video before it was removed from everywhere. I disagree with your assessment of "truth."

[Lawman]

Maybe it is overblown for cosmetologists...but I think it shows where the priorities are for state and city governments. 

It’s a nonsense talking point developed to generate outrage by people with no basis for comparison.

Look just to give you an idea how dumb this idea that 400 hours and we give you a gun... the deputy program in my counties Sheriff department was 6 months working in the jail. You were ineligible for work as a road officer until you passed that hurdle, which was after you met the state required course provided at the collegiate level (most places have gone to this model instead of individual academy programs outside major cities). If you actually looked around plenty of guys had been working the jail for as much as 18 months because of a limited number of field training officers so intake was managed to avoid deluding the road training.

After that time in the jail where one could find themselves permanently because they were deemed unfit for road work, you went to a field training probation period... that was typically another 6-8 months before you were certified for individual patrol. The city metro program was similar, with higher qualification standards for immediate hiring, so while you skipped the jail per say you also had to show more quality to even get in.


So yeah as some have pointed to, this nonsense you can be a cop easier than you can be a hairdresser is just noise from the same people screaming all cops are bastards.


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[Alpharatz]

As an aside..being LEO (or a teacher for that matter) in any kind of minority community is likely going to be nearly impossible before too long.  With a camera under every swingin pair the one with the best video wins.  So one key might be to just let whatever it is slide.  Ignore it and move right along.  Answer the calls.  Cook up a little activity for the books.  Don't be cooking up trouble.  Keep management happy.. After all, every contact with anyone by def. involves the presence of a deadly weapon...might as well minimize.  To change things, training is of course the key, but so is how a newbie gets socialized into the police system.  From the top down , Inspectors, Captains, Lt's, Sergeants, detectives all come up from the ranks (usually, outfits differ) soooo If there is misbehavior, poor judgement, drinking, nasty activity in general, the honchos know what's going on and tend to ignore it from top to bottom..since they were brought up the same way.  Unless the hammer comes down from the top thru the ranks and hard, the way the average officer is socialized to the job will never change.  Remember the old adage  "a policeman's life is not a happy one".  Join the Fire department. 

[pawnman]

13 hours ago, Lawman said:

It’s a nonsense talking point developed to generate outrage by people with no basis for comparison.

Look just to give you an idea how dumb this idea that 400 hours and we give you a gun... the deputy program in my counties Sheriff department was 6 months working in the jail. You were ineligible for work as a road officer until you passed that hurdle, which was after you met the state required course provided at the collegiate level (most places have gone to this model instead of individual academy programs outside major cities). If you actually looked around plenty of guys had been working the jail for as much as 18 months because of a limited number of field training officers so intake was managed to avoid deluding the road training.

After that time in the jail where one could find themselves permanently because they were deemed unfit for road work, you went to a field training probation period... that was typically another 6-8 months before you were certified for individual patrol. The city metro program was similar, with higher qualification standards for immediate hiring, so while you skipped the jail per say you also had to show more quality to even get in.


So yeah as some have pointed to, this nonsense you can be a cop easier than you can be a hairdresser is just noise from the same people screaming all cops are bastards.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Do you think a cop fired by one city for misconduct should be eligible to be a police officer in another department? 

Because you're right,  there are differences...if a barber loses their license, they can't go work at a hair salon in a different city.

[ViperMan]

This series of articles highlights the "Animal Farm" that the NYT - our supposed paper of record - has become:

https://nypost.com/2021/02/10/ny-times-defends-1619-project-creator-after-she-doxxed-reporter/

https://nypost.com/2021/02/11/read-the-column-the-new-york-times-didnt-want-you-read/

https://nypost.com/2021/02/10/the-woke-mob-now-utterly-rules-the-new-york-times/

https://nypost.com/2021/02/09/war-erupts-at-ny-times-after-donald-mcneil-ousted-over-n-word-controversy/

In short, Nikole Hannah-Jones doxxed a journalist because she didn't like his questions about her previous (perhaps appropriate) use of the N-word. The questioning led her to delete her entire twitter history and post some nonsense about how she "routinely" deletes previous posts. I'm not personally surprised by this, because she is ultimately one garbage person, but the disparate response by the NYT decision makers is "problematic" to say the least.

At the same time, another NYT journalist, Donald McNeil, has been summarily ousted because of his use of the N-word. If you read into that situation's background, you'll find it wasn't used maliciously. What's more, is that the NYT scuttled a critical, though valid, piece of its own handling of that situation - which drew attention to how context matters and is being fully disregarded in this case.

I can't say I'm actually surprised by them not self-publishing an article airing their own dirty laundry, but it is important for us to understand the filter that anything the NYT publishes has passed through. Even more important, though, is that instances like this highlight the growing institutional acceptance and normalization of mob rule, arbitrary rule-making, and unprincipled application.

Rules for thee, not for me. This is the type of power "1984" warns us about.

Edited February 20, 2021 by ViperMan
punctuation

[filthy_liar]

"I pledge to advocate for and acknowledge all lived experiences and intersectional identities of every sailor in the Navy. I pledge to engage in ongoing self-reflection, education and knowledge sharing to better myself and my communities. I pledge to be an example in establishing healthy, inclusive and team-oriented environments. I pledge to constructively share all experiences and information gained from activities above to inform the development of Navy-wide reforms."

Latest wokeness infiltrating the DoD.  I sure hope we don't go to war with China.  That would be racist.

[gimmeaplane]

On 2/22/2021 at 11:05 AM, filthy_liar said:

Latest wokeness infiltrating the DoD.  I sure hope we don't go to war with China.  That would be racist.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55926248

They're running counterflow.

[Prozac]

 

[ClearedHot]

[Lord Ratner]

28 minutes ago, ClearedHot said:

Yikes

[pawnman]

4 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

It's photoshopped.

It was a response to Biden bombing Syria after blasting Trump on Twitter for...bombing Syria.

[Lawman]

I feel like blowing it up is the only reasonable thing to do with it now...


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[Waingro]

21 hours ago, pawnman said:

It's photoshopped.

It was a response to Biden bombing Syria after blasting Trump on Twitter for...bombing Syria.

Sadly, there are certain to be some professional faux-outrage experts who think this is real. Instead of just laughing about it. 

[HuggyU2]

On 5/31/2020 at 5:37 PM, slackline said:

As a white guy I’ve never had to discuss how to interact with the police if they have the misfortune of being pulled over, or talked to in the street.

Really?  I had that conversation with my children.  More than once too.