The WOKE Thread (Merged from WTF?)

[CaptainMorgan]

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/arkansas-state-senator-asks-transgender-pharmacist-if-she-has-penis-committee-hearing
Even better, don't punish adults for banging minors
 

Where’s OSI when we need them?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Biff_T]

3 hours ago, CaptainMorgan said:

Where’s OSI when we need them?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Probably in a gender re-education camp.

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by Biff_T
Afterthought

[Biff_T]

https://www.foxnews.com/us/la-da-gascon-suspends-prosecutor-misgendering-deadnaming-trans-child-molester-accused-murder

This is my favorite type of stupid.  

[ClearedHot]

My son is doing Navy JROTC in high school (AF JROTC offered at the High School across town).

Yesterday he came home and told me they announced they are doing away with all ranks in the name of equality. 

WTF?!?  I am speechless, no more ranks in the military? 

[FLEA]

12 minutes ago, ClearedHot said:

My son is doing Navy JROTC in high school (AF JROTC offered at the High School across town).

Yesterday he came home and told me they announced they are doing away with all ranks in the name of equality. 

WTF?!?  I am speechless, no more ranks in the military? 

Maybe just JROTC. He might mean they are just getting rid of the cadet ranks..... which lets be honest.... were dumb to begin with. 

 

I'm unfortunately aware that this is probably fallout from a recent scandal in JROTC in Chicago that involved A LOT of sexual misconduct. They might be trying to remove the power structures that were used to leverage some of that misconduct (upper classman exploiting younger peers). 

[ClearedHot]

1 minute ago, FLEA said:

Maybe just JROTC. He might mean they are just getting rid of the cadet ranks..... which lets be honest.... were dumb to begin with. 

 

I'm unfortunately aware that this is probably fallout from a recent scandal in JROTC in Chicago that involved A LOT of sexual misconduct. They might be trying to remove the power structures that were used to leverage some of that misconduct (upper classman exploiting younger peers). 

Yes, he meant JRTOC ranks and I disagree.  It is a military based leadership program that teaches both leadership and followership, there is a purpose to ranks in that model that has been proven over a thousand years.  

[FLEA]

23 minutes ago, ClearedHot said:

Yes, he meant JRTOC ranks and I disagree.  It is a military based leadership program that teaches both leadership and followership, there is a purpose to ranks in that model that has been proven over a thousand years.  

I get what you're saying but leadership and rank are 2 different things, and you don't need rank to exhibit leadership. Rank is an implication of authority and the hardest but most important approach of leadership is the approach where you have no authority. 

I mean I can see why you feel its important but I think we need to weigh the value rank brings to teaching leadership fundamentals (which I think is low) to the risk it imposes when its inherent authority is granted to emotionally immature and possibly misguided teenagers. 

(Also I think 1000 years is a stretch..... 1000 years ago military rank was based on status of your birth, not your leadership capability or your instinct to command) 

Edited February 24, 2023 by FLEA

[ClearedHot]

Just now, FLEA said:

I get what you're saying but leadership and rank are 2 different things, and you don't need rank to exhibit leadership. Rank is an implication of authority and the hardest but most important approach of leadership is the approach where you have no authority.

I mean I can see why you feel its important but I think we need to weigh the value rank brings to teaching leadership fundamentals (which I think is low) to the risk it imposes when its inherent authority is granted to emotionally immature and possibly misguided teenagers. 

Maybe you could start the JR Woke leadership program in high schools to employ your theory? 

Dude...it is a military program, there is rank in the military, put the woke juice back on the shelf.  This isn't TAPS with a bunch of Tom Cruise types in the window with a machine gun, it is simply JROTC.  Is there anything sacrosanct in the woke world?

[FLEA]

20 minutes ago, ClearedHot said:

Maybe you could start the JR Woke leadership program in high schools to employ your theory? 

Dude...it is a military program, there is rank in the military, put the woke juice back on the shelf.  This isn't TAPS with a bunch of Tom Cruise types in the window with a machine gun, it is simply JROTC.  Is there anything sacrosanct in the woke world?

I love how any time you make a sensible argument the default position now is for people to just accuse you of being "woke." I'm sorry that its apparently "woke" to protect children from sexual assault. I didn't realize that was a fundamental leadership skill in the military.

Cadet ranks were dumb. Period. They were an artificial authority instilled in a learning environment that didn't require it. It made individuals worse leaders by instilling a false sense of ego before they were mature and humble enough to understand that leadership and authority isn't a privledged--but rather a burden. They derailed from JROTC's goals which honestly have absolutely nothing to do with the military and everything to do with bolstering good citizenship and social responsibility. The best leaders coming out of high schools are usually coming out of team sports and you don't see an exaggerated and ridiculous rank structure provided there. And no, nothing in the military is sacrosanct. The first thing you ask when someone says "this is the way we've always done it" is "well why are we still doing it that way?" Until someone can articulate a good answer, i'm getting rid of that BS process for something probably more effective. 

 

[ClearedHot]

27 minutes ago, FLEA said:

I love how any time you make a sensible argument the default position now is for people to just accuse you of being "woke." I'm sorry that its apparently "woke" to protect children from sexual assault. I didn't realize that was a fundamental leadership skill in the military.

Cadet ranks were dumb. Period. They were an artificial authority instilled in a learning environment that didn't require it. It made individuals worse leaders by instilling a false sense of ego before they were mature and humble enough to understand that leadership and authority isn't a privledged--but rather a burden. They derailed from JROTC's goals which honestly have absolutely nothing to do with the military and everything to do with bolstering good citizenship and social responsibility. The best leaders coming out of high schools are usually coming out of team sports and you don't see an exaggerated and ridiculous rank structure provided there. And no, nothing in the military is sacrosanct. The first thing you ask when someone says "this is the way we've always done it" is "well why are we still doing it that way?" Until someone can articulate a good answer, i'm getting rid of that BS process for something probably more effective. 

 

Dear god...participation trophies for everyone, lets get rid of AP and honors classes, lets all put on our homogenized Chairman Mao suits so we look and act the same for indoctrination. 

Have you even been around one of these programs lately?  I've watched my son the past two years and it has been nothing but stellar, Christ he spent more hours (200+), doing community service last year in JROTC than he did in SGA. 

I am not sure what team sports you played but I played football and baseball all four years and there most certainly was a rank structure.  From JV to Varsity, backup to starters and god forbid to team CAPTAINS...how dare they use that rank structure moniker!  For me rank was neither a privilege nor a "burden", it was a responsibility and I learned that responsibility by working my way up.  I was a team captain as a junior and I knew that meant every single practice and every single game.

[FLEA]

5 minutes ago, ClearedHot said:

Dear god...participation trophies for everyone, lets get rid of AP and honors classes, lets all put on our homogenized Chairman Mao suits so we look and act the same for indoctrination. 

Have you even been around one of these programs lately?  I've watched my son the past two years and it has been nothing but stellar, Christ he spent more hours (200+), doing community service last year in JROTC than he did in SGA. 

I am not sure what team sports you played but I played football and baseball all four years and there most certainly was a rank structure.  From JV to Varsity, backup to starters and god forbid to team CAPTAINS...how dare they use that rank structure moniker!  For me rank was neither a privilege nor a "burden", it was a responsibility and I learned that responsibility by working my way up.  I was a team captain as a junior and I knew that meant every single practice and every single game.

CH.... why don't you take a step back and recognize that you probably only have a tiny sliver of the JROTC pie as well.

I recommend you google Chicago Public Schools JROTC scandals and read through the dozens of pages of issues they've had with sexual violence, sexual cover up, discrimination and targeting of black and latino students. Your cozy suburb JROTC program might be a tight ship and well run. Almost 50% of JROTC participants though are inner city students who attend academy schools that have been plagued by underfunded and poorly ran programs for decades. 

I have no doubt the JROTC did some great things for maybe yourself and some people you know. The JROTC program, as a whole, has done more harm than good though when you consider that the largest student bodies effected by it were ran poorly without moral or ethical consideration to the outcomes of a child. 

Any officer who believes their rank holds their leadership, doesn't deserve their rank. 

[FourFans]

20 minutes ago, FLEA said:

The JROTC program, as a whole, has done more harm than good though when you consider that the largest student bodies effected by it were ran poorly without moral or ethical consideration to the outcomes of a child. 

That's one hell of a broad brush.  Would you care to elaborate how some recent and admittedly horrible events in Chicago overshadow the entirely of the JROTC program?  I'm not a JROTC guru, but in making such a large claim, you clearly must be. 

So, by your standard, if a program fails in one location we should change the rules everywhere?  That doesn't check.  You're willing to trash a whole program based on the outcomes of one section of society.  But let's walk the dog a little: What's your take on service academies?  Ban those too?  What about CAP?  They've had scandals.  Executive staffs?  Political interns?  Oh yeah, and Colonels.  LOTS of sex scandals with Colonels.  Get rid of all those too.  Where do you draw the line.

Restructure and reorganization?  Definitely.  Rip away the foundational bits?  Ummmm no.  You might as well get rid of uniforms, saluting, flags, marching, PT, and all forms of decorum.  Heck, just say whoever's the biggest and strongest gets to make the rules.  That works out well, right?

Hyperbole aside, consider what the military will look like when these kids who started their military experience with no rank then become leaders.  Consider an active duty general in AFPC someday recommending we get rid of ranks, because he saw it work once when he was young...   Seriously.  That kind of shit has happened.  Moreover, casting aside rank is the first step towards casting aside responsibility and accountability.  I'm a history guy, and yes, there are 1000's (plural) of years of written history with ranks involved.  There were periods when social status fed into that, but rank has ALWAYS been associated with responsibility.  It's one of the first tiers that separates the professional military from a militia or a band of civilians.

1 hour ago, FLEA said:

Cadet ranks were dumb. Period.

According to you.  If it was so dumb, did you burn your rank in effigy about how you were being oppressed?  I doubt it.  It wasn't dumb, you simply didn't understand it.  Just because you think a tradition or structure are 'dumb' because you don't see with a long vision, don't mean jack in reality.  I have no doubt many people have thought you are dumb, that doesn't make you dumb.  The facts of history don't give a shit about our emotions.  Ranks structures have for 1000's of years created order, unity, cohesion, and a clear line of authority in military structure with members down to the age of 12...and younger if you're Greek.

Step back and look at the nearly 300 year tradition of the military in this country alone and you might grow some respect for rank, structure, and responsibility.  You don't have to like it.  You DO have to understand it, especially as an officer.  Some failures in that system don't make the system bad.  They mean that the system is populated by imperfect people.  The system can be improved, but not by wiping away it's foundations.  If we based our military authority structure solely on the moral success or failure of the individuals, we'd have cast it aside right about the time Benedict Arnold decide he didn't like how things were being run here.

Edited February 24, 2023 by FourFans130

[FLEA]

3 minutes ago, FourFans130 said:

That's one hell of a broad brush.  So if a program fails in one location we should change the rules everywhere?  That doesn't check dude.  You're willing to trash a whole program based on the outcomes of one section of society.  What's your take on service academies?  Ban those too?  What about CAP?  They've had scandals.  Oh yeah, and Colonels.  LOTS of sex scandals with Colonels.  Get rid of those too.

Hyperbole aside, consider what the military will look like when these kids who started their military experience with no rank then become leaders.  Casting aside rank the first step towards casting aside responsibility and accountability.  I'm a history guy, and yes, there are 1000's (plural) of years of written history with ranks involved.  There were periods when social status fed into that, but rank has ALWAYS been associated with responsibility.  It's one of the first tiers that separates the professional military from a militia.

According to you.  If it was so dumb, did you burn your rank in effigy about how you were being oppressed?  I doubt it.  It wasn't dumb, you simply didn't understand it.  Just because you think a tradition or structure are 'dumb' because you don't see with a long vision, don't mean jack in reality.  I have no doubt many people have thought you are dumb, that doesn't make you dumb.  The facts of history don't give a shit about our emotions.  Ranks structures have for 1000's of years created order, unity, cohesion, and a clear line of authority in military structure with members down to the age of 12...and younger if you're Greek.

Step back and look at the nearly 300 year tradition of the military in this country alone and you might grow some respect for rank, structure, and responsibility.  You don't have to like it.  You DO have to understand it, especially as an officer.  Some failures in that system don't make the system bad.  They mean that the system is populated by imperfect people.  The system can be improved, but not by wiping away it's foundations.  If we based our military authority structure solely on the moral success or failure of the individuals, we'd have cast it aside right about the time Benedict Arnold decide he didn't like how things were being run here.

1.) 50%. It has negatively effected 50%. That is how many programs are under inner city public school programming and are failing. That's not "painting with a broad brush." That's systematically failing at stated goals. CPS is just one of dozens of school districts like it that are problematic right now. They also have the most recent scandal and the one that I believe would have led to a recommendation of removing cadet ranks. 

2.) I don't give a shit about a 300 year old military tradition. We are talking about children and whether the militarization of children is a net positive for society. Do we really need a Komsomol or Hitler Youth clone stewarding out young ones? 

3.) You guys keep bring up some arbitrary shit like 300 years, 1000 years, whatever.... As if I hadn't already spent a significant portion of my life choking on this bullshit already. Yes we all get it.... The military has rank. You know when it didn't fucking matter? When my group commander was also my navigator. Authority, command, rank... They all mean things, they are all innate to service, none of those values are neccessary to be successful as a highschool student and US citizen though (which is all JROTC purports to do). 

 

[BashiChuni]

show me on the doll where JROTC touched you FLEA

between transgender/LGBTQ+++++ agenda and diversity/equity/inclusion woke agenda....JROTC is WAY down the list on any harm being caused to children.

left leaning people are castrating children in the name of trans acceptance. JROTC isn't the issue.

[FLEA]

3 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

show me on the doll where JROTC touched you FLEA

between transgender/LGBTQ+++++ agenda and diversity/equity/inclusion woke agenda....JROTC is WAY down the list on any harm being caused to children.

left leaning people are castrating children in the name of trans acceptance. JROTC isn't the issue.

While I agree there are some problems with how transgenderism is handled in schools (mainly the schools ambition to keep such issues secret from parents) you clearly lack context on the scale of the problem. I would be hard pressed to believe that transgender issues effected a wider net body than the 100s of uncovered sexual assaults in the last year. 

Or the tens of thousands of black and Latino students who were not allowed to register for prestigious charter schools because they were auto enrolled into academies. 

That's a pretty big fucking failure and if as a commander you were told that you had 100 sexual assaults in your wing and tens of thousands of reports of racial discrimination, I would hope you would not think of that as a problem "far down the totem pole." 

[arg]

I wonder how getting rid of rank would prevent/solve the problems you are talking about FLEA.

[slc]

I wonder if there isn’t something deeper which is causing this “turmoil” in the Chicago public school system……

[ClearedHot]

2 hours ago, arg said:

I wonder how getting rid of rank would prevent/solve the problems you are talking about FLEA.

Exactly...he was losing that argument so he did a pivot to "the entire system is corrupt" then invoked Hitler...right out of the playbook.

[FLEA]

56 minutes ago, ClearedHot said:

Exactly...he was losing that argument so he did a pivot to "the entire system is corrupt" then invoked Hitler...right out of the playbook.

The recent report out of Chicago was about upper classmen using their false rank to exploit lower classmen in a sexual misconduct investigation. The largest publicity around that incident focused on the cadre and CPS staff members who were also complicit (either by participating or allowing) but the actual conduct of what occured, was that upper classmen or ranking cadets were involved in some brutal sexual hazing incidents. 

I said that earlier but you guys were so "ermagosh someone disagrees with me they must be woke" that you all came off bent and stupid instead. 

I'm not 100% certain those two things are correlated but there is a connection there. 

Cadet ranks are stupid. Your rank is cadet. You learn to be a follower because your cadre have actual ranks and authority. You learn to be a leader because you don't need rank to do that, you just need to be a decent human being with good empathy. 

Noone EVER got hired for a job because they were a cadet wing commander or some BS. Literally noone cares. 

[Lord Ratner]

I'm always puzzled when people blame the construct for the behavior.

 

Rank is just a reflection of hierarchies, which are inseparable from humanity. You get rid of cadet ranks and they will be replaced by another construct, which will act the same way.

 

You have to structure the hierarchies in a way that promote stability. But acting as though they can be removed from the equation is like arguing that we should just remove hate, or fear, or greed. They are foundational components of humanity.

 

The failure was not the existence of rank. It never is.

[FLEA]

1 hour ago, slc said:

I wonder if there isn’t something deeper which is causing this “turmoil” in the Chicago public school system……

I dunno? What would you think it would be? Chicago Public Schools is a bit of a paradox. They on one hand, have hands down some of the best and most elite public highschools in the country. Then on the other hand, have some of the absolute worse. What gives CPS a bad name is the lack of equity and control in schooling. Your child can be straight As solid student, apply to a top school, but there is a lottery element that can force them into a lower performing school. 

The lottery is weighted to favor lower income neighborhoods to some extent. It's a complicated beast of a system that's extremely difficult to understand and frankly most middle income families who move to Chicago don't event try and just pivot straight to private schooling. 

It's hard to pinpoint it strictly on one thing (like democratic governance) because honestly school funding is voted in levies that are neighborhood specific but they get quite complicated because your child might not be able to even attend the school in your neighborhood. 

Edited February 25, 2023 by FLEA

[FLEA]

4 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

I'm always puzzled when people blame the construct for the behavior.

 

Rank is just a reflection of hierarchies, which are inseparable from humanity. You get rid of cadet ranks and they will be replaced by another construct, which will act the same way.

 

You have to structure the hierarchies in a way that promote stability. But acting as though they can be removed from the equation is like arguing that we should just remove hate, or fear, or greed. They are foundational components of humanity.

 

The failure was not the existence of rank. It never is.

Right but you don't need specifically hierarchies among children. It's a given that children are usually at the bottom of social hierarchies as they lack experience, competence and judgement. Doesn't mean you can't give them opportunities to lead. We still graduated thousands of ROTC cadets every year as officers that were never cadet wing commanders. Are they some how not qualified to be leaders because they never had the opportunity to do..... Squat and dick..... Like really I don't even know what our cadet wing commanders did. 

[FLEA]

10 minutes ago, FLEA said:

Then one night in 2015 as he drove her home from rifle practice, she told investigators, Mr. Hardin pushed his hand into her pants and penetrated her with his fingers — the start of what she said was months of sexual assaults. Ms. Bauer, who was 15 at the time, feared that resisting him would jeopardize her shot at advancement through the J.R.O.T.C. ranks or a military career.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2022/07/09/us/sexual-abuse-jrotc.amp.html

[uhhello]

Not sure what anything you have quoted so far has to do with JROTC ranks?  I cringe every time I see "woke" used as its usually someone who turns out to be exactly like the stereotype I have pictured in my head saying it but that's for a different thread.  Evil people abuse their positions of power whether their power comes from a silly JROTC rank or an upperclassmen/woman "hazing" an underclass"person".  Same with JROTC instructors and teachers.  You aren't preventing ANYTHING by taking away a title.  

[FLEA]

6 minutes ago, uhhello said:

Not sure what anything you have quoted so far has to do with JROTC ranks?  I cringe every time I see "woke" used as its usually someone who turns out to be exactly like the stereotype I have pictured in my head saying it but that's for a different thread.  Evil people abuse their positions of power whether their power comes from a silly JROTC rank or an upperclassmen/woman "hazing" an underclass"person".  Same with JROTC instructors and teachers.  You aren't preventing ANYTHING by taking away a title.  

You don't see how a quote from a 15yo girl who hid 9 months of sexual assaults out of fear it would endanger her ability to move through JROTC ranks might indicate that she was falsely fixated on the value of that rank over her own physical and mental well being? 

I guess my position would be 1.) Children are more often probably not psychology equipped to responsibly handle authority. Noone has articulated how a rank structure makes JROTC cadets better equipped to participate as US citizens in society. 2.) The rank structures in JROTC are not where the value in the program resides. I do believe retired AD can be excellent mentors to HS youth. But they don't need a rank structure to do that. The fundamentals of discipline, physical well-being, social charisma, etc... Can all still be there. There still are and should be strict lines of authority between cadre and cadets. But kids on their own often go very Lord of the Flies very quick, is my concern.