The WOKE Thread (Merged from WTF?)

[Guardian]

Also, I'll give it to you that you never said explicitly that what I said was only allowable in America. Although I still don't understand why you pointed it out other than to implicitly hint that I wouldn't be able to share my viewpoint unless I was here. Because in reality, what I said was perfectly allowable in the vast majority of countries, which is why your comment was so out of place and received multiple "why you saying this?" responses from not just myself.

Thanks for finally focusing. I wasn’t hinting anything. Just pointing out how great of a country we have. The best in the world and the best the world has ever seen as designed by the founding fathers. (The last 5 months of junk not included).

And in the future if you don’t understand someone’s point or context, might I suggest you ask the question instead of assume?

And your last point, a point made from authority, (your comment was so out of place and received multiple "why you saying this?" responses from not just myself.) really means nothing and is a terrible thing to bring up in a discourse. It’s like a spouse saying, “well everyone else thinks so too.” So? It’s like saying well this doctor says this...... well so? Where’s the data? Where are the subjective facts that you can rely on not opinion?

Thanks for recognizing that alone I was just pointing out that isn’t it great we live in the best country in the world? One that allows freedom of speech to everyone.

[Negatory]

12 minutes ago, Guardian said:

Research my friend. Yes. US is the only place that has true freedom of speech. Hate speech isn’t a real thing. It’s Marxism and socialism with some capitalism mixed in. Saying it’s against the law to not call someone by their preferred pronoun is wrong and has been the downfall of certain aspects of society. Canada, and the UK are feeling the pain and consequences of stifling freedom of speech.

Research. Nothing I have said is untrue.

I think we’re gonna have to agree to disagree on many points, thanks for the opinions.

[nsplayr]

Yea @Guardian I just don’t agree that your personal, maximalist version of “free speech” is the only version that counts. The United States has strong freedom of expression laws and cultural norms, but so do many other countries.

You yourself said speech that is dangerous and false should not be protected, and the devil is 100% in those details.

Some countries (Austria for instance) have said that it is “dangerous and false” to claim that the prophet Muhammad is a pedophile and made that speech illegal. Do I agree with that, not necessarily, but there is no one black and white definition here, as made obvious by numerous court cases and different legal opinions around the globe as to what’s permissible or not.

re: Canadians going to jail for misusing pronouns, again, the person making the claim that seems outside of CW needs to provide the evidence. Here’s the #1 google search result from me looking.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/not-real-news-no-jail-in-canada-for-misusing-gender-pronoun

[Guardian]

Yea [mention=77584]Guardian[/mention] I just don’t agree that your personal, maximalist version of “free speech” is the only version that counts. The United States has strong freedom of expression laws and cultural norms, but so do many other countries.
You yourself said speech that is dangerous and false should not be protected, and the devil is 100% in those details.
Some countries (Austria for instance) have said that it is “dangerous and false” to claim that the prophet Muhammad is a pedophile and made that speech illegal. Do I agree with that, not necessarily, but there is no one black and white definition here, as made obvious by numerous court cases and different legal opinions around the globe as to what’s permissible or not.
re: Canadians going to jail for misusing pronouns, again, the person making the claim that seems outside of CW needs to provide the evidence. Here’s the #1 google search result from me looking.
https://www.foxnews.com/world/not-real-news-no-jail-in-canada-for-misusing-gender-pronoun

Agreed. You should be able to say Muhammad is a pedophile. Regardless of true or not.

Check again. Quick search shows people have been getting fined and gone to jail in Canada for words not calls to action. It’s a problem.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/globalnews.ca/news/5810045/jail-promoting-hate-strong-message/amp/

[Guardian]

I think we’re gonna have to agree to disagree on many points, thanks for the opinions.

Thank you.

[Guardian]

Yea [mention=77584]Guardian[/mention] I just don’t agree that your personal, maximalist version of “free speech” is the only version that counts. The United States has strong freedom of expression laws and cultural norms, but so do many other countries.
You yourself said speech that is dangerous and false should not be protected, and the devil is 100% in those details.
Some countries (Austria for instance) have said that it is “dangerous and false” to claim that the prophet Muhammad is a pedophile and made that speech illegal. Do I agree with that, not necessarily, but there is no one black and white definition here, as made obvious by numerous court cases and different legal opinions around the globe as to what’s permissible or not.
re: Canadians going to jail for misusing pronouns, again, the person making the claim that seems outside of CW needs to provide the evidence. Here’s the #1 google search result from me looking.
https://www.foxnews.com/world/not-real-news-no-jail-in-canada-for-misusing-gender-pronoun

Nsplayer, you and I have already reached the point of understanding we will never agree. I’ve provided evidence. The press is even going to jail in Canada.

[lloyd christmas]

Big baseball fan here.  Just about as big as they come.  I was counting down the days until opening night.  I made it .69 seconds into the first game.  BLM is emblazoned on the back of the pitchers mound and players were kneeling.  Our country is in for some serious changes post COVID and civil unrest.  One of the casualties will probably be sports as we know it.  People have gotten used to living life without sports.  On top of that, I think that professional sports executives are grossly underestimating how tired the average american is of these social justice issues.  I just want to watch sports.  That's it.  

Edited July 23, 2020 by lloyd christmas

[Guardian]

Fake social justice issues.

No one goes shouting down the streets about things that everyone knows and accepts. Just like that lives of black people matter. But somehow that’s what is going on. Riots and general douche baggery is ok because something we all know is true is cover for being bad and racist. I don’t get it.

I was hoping baseball wasn’t going to sign up for this fake junk. Wonder if college or high school are? Might be the end of sports as we know and love them.

[Swizzle]

18 minutes ago, sixblades said:

I agree that some people don’t know what they’re doing out there as they’re defacing and tearing down some of these statues, and that’s a problem. But the vast majority of protesters aren’t rioters, or looters, or tearing down statues. What difference does timing make when they bring up relevant issues that they want their civic leaders to address? There will always be a vocal minority in every movement that tries to hijack the narrative for their own good or exploits the situation to do things that aren’t representative of the greater ideology.

Our history isn’t going anywhere. We’re still going to know who Stonewall Jackson is and everyone is going to know that Woodrow Wilson was the President. I do believe there’s great value in preserving these statues and art, the same as any other artistic piece, I just don’t think celebrating things that are so contrary to the values we collectively hold makes sense. How many statues do we have of Andrew Jackson, as is that a concern about his historical relevance?

President Washington owned slaves (https://www.mountvernon.org/george-washington/slavery/ten-facts-about-washington-slavery/),  should we not celebrate the 1st President because of this association? Should we rename D.C. and Washington State too? Many value and follow the Office of the President, should we abandon that too because of a historical association to the 1st President?

Values change when the context changes. Understanding why, where, and when they change, via historic lessons, is seeking true wisdom and balance. Not celebrating history, those lessons of historic values and their changes, is ignoring wisdom and embracing bias.

 

[sixblades]

President Washington owned slaves (https://www.mountvernon.org/george-washington/slavery/ten-facts-about-washington-slavery/),  should we not celebrate the 1st President because of this association? Should we rename D.C. and Washington State too? Many value and follow the Office of the President, should we abandon that too because of a historical association to the 1st President?

Values change when the context changes. Understanding why, where, and when they change, via historic lessons, is seeking true wisdom and balance. Not celebrating history, those lessons of historic values and their changes, is ignoring wisdom and embracing bias.

 

I agree that context matters and made a very similar point a few posts earlier. To my knowledge, no one wants to “cancel” Washington or rename things that are named in his honor. Most of the founding fathers were either slave owners themselves or were supportive of the institution. It was unfortunately the economic system of the time. However, they didn’t found the nation on the principles that we must continue to uphold the inequities and inhumanity of slavery. On the other hand, that is exactly what the Confederacy fought for as they opposed any change to the economic systems of the South that were fueled predominantly by slave labor output. Operating within a system is very different than fighting to keep an unjust system place. According the majority of US citizens and wider international sentiments, the Confederacy was objectively wrong at that time.

 

As I said earlier, people In the past have done or supported things that may be distasteful or wrong by today’s standards, but the litmus test is whether it was equally wrong when they made their choices.

 

ETA: the point in my previous post was to say that history doesn’t disappear because you move a statue from being prominently displayed in a public square to now being displayed on the civil war section of the museum.

[kaputt]

7 hours ago, lloyd christmas said:

Big baseball fan here.  Just about as big as they come.  I was counting down the days until opening night.  I made it .69 seconds into the first game.  BLM is emblazoned on the back of the pitchers mound and players were kneeling.  Our country is in for some serious changes post COVID and civil unrest.  One of the casualties will probably be sports as we know it.  People have gotten used to living life without sports.  On top of that, I think that professional sports executives are grossly underestimating how tired the average american is of these social justice issues.  I just want to watch sports.  That's it.  

Couldn't agree more. Also a big sports guy myself, played in college even.  Huge Nats fan as well, celebrated their WS win last year "bigly". This year, I haven't re-upped my MLB.tv subscription and didn't even remotely care to tune into their game against the Yankees. For one, its been nice having weekends and evenings completely free to do as a I please and not plan around watching a game. Two, so sick of the social justice crap that we've been hounded on for years now with sports. This didn't just start now, its been going on for awhile. Beyond that, a lot of pro sports these days is a garbage product anyway. NBA and NFL most notably. I never really got into the NBA and I gave up on the NFL years ago, long begore Kapernick or anything like that. 

About the only sport I see myself regularly watching for the foreseeable future is IndyCar and Sports Car racing. Both of those have managed to avoid massive SJW assaults, likely due to their fringe nature. Although with the Indy 500 coming up in August I'm afraid that might change.  

[Danger41]

4 hours ago, kaputt said:

Couldn't agree more. Also a big sports guy myself, played in college even.  Huge Nats fan as well, celebrated their WS win last year "bigly". This year, I haven't re-upped my MLB.tv subscription and didn't even remotely care to tune into their game against the Yankees. For one, its been nice having weekends and evenings completely free to do as a I please and not plan around watching a game. Two, so sick of the social justice crap that we've been hounded on for years now with sports. This didn't just start now, its been going on for awhile. Beyond that, a lot of pro sports these days is a garbage product anyway. NBA and NFL most notably. I never really got into the NBA and I gave up on the NFL years ago, long begore Kapernick or anything like that. 

About the only sport I see myself regularly watching for the foreseeable future is IndyCar and Sports Car racing. Both of those have managed to avoid massive SJW assaults, likely due to their fringe nature. Although with the Indy 500 coming up in August I'm afraid that might change.  

I think the worst thing to happen to the Nats was Fauci’s first pitch the other night. What a perfect metaphor for all this covid stuff.

[Guardian]

I think it was perfect. It showed that we don’t want equality of outcome. His first pitch was awful. And that’s the way I want it from the top doctor advising the country during this time. He had the opportunity to do whatever he wanted but he specialized in medicine and became sought after and an expert thus creating inequality of outcome for those around him. Imagine if equality of out come was a thing and Dr Anthony Fauci was the Nats starting pitcher last night just because of equality? It don’t make sense.

[Negatory]

9 minutes ago, Guardian said:

I think it was perfect. It showed that we don’t want equality of outcome. His first pitch was awful. And that’s the way I want it from the top doctor advising the country during this time. He had the opportunity to do whatever he wanted but he specialized in medicine and became sought after and an expert thus creating inequality of outcome for those around him. Imagine if equality of out come was a thing and Dr Anthony Fauci was the Nats starting pitcher last night just because of equality? It don’t make sense.

I agree, everyone should not have equality of outcome, they should have equality of opportunity. All men are created equal.

Which is why I’m certain you support a 100% redistributed inheritance and death tax, right? (I’m actually sure you don’t, and I’ve never understood this stance).

[pawnman]

On 7/22/2020 at 9:28 AM, Homestar said:

Lots of undercover work is done with police anonymity for their own safety.

And crowd control requires police to be undercover...while wearing giant "police" labels on the uniform?

[Guardian]

I don't think the government should be directly concerned with an individual's "opportunities" per se, because that eventually turns into equality of outcome. I think they should focus on providing the citizenry with the cornerstone of a good life, and that's encouraging a nuclear family, providing good schools, and promoting engagement in the marketplace (entrepreneurship).
If someone is worried about everyone having the "same opportunities," then it's not a far leap to push for the removal of private/homeschool education (because it's better than public) and/or redistributed inheritance (like you mentioned).
The government doesn't exist to fix everyone's problems. It does exist to give its people a starting point, where even if you're not the President's kid, you can still be pretty damn successful. On that front, our state and local governments are a failure in most cases.

I agree. With the exception of your use of the word provide. The government shouldn’t provide us with these things. They should protect our equality of opportunities to pursue these things if we work towards it.

[Guardian]

And crowd control requires police to be undercover...while wearing giant "police" labels on the uniform?

I think someone could make a lot of money if they could design a way for sarcasm to be obvious or emotions to be felt and understood from text.

[pawnman]

Just now, Guardian said:

I think someone could make a lot of money if they could design a way for sarcasm to be obvious or emotions to be felt and understood from text.

Perhaps.

I'm not a huge fan of undercover stuff anyway.  It seems most prevalent in drug cases...which IMHO, shouldn't even be crimes in the first place.  But the police wearing full tactical gear to arrest protestors and/or rioters are not in any way, shape, or form undercover.  And unless they plan to do shady shit (like, say, take a knife to cases of water at aid stations or shove an 80-year-old man to the ground), there's no reason for them to conceal their names and/or badge numbers.

[TurnHer4]

For those of you that are tired of the Social Justice stuff before and during sporting events, I get it. Hell, I even agree a little. However, I am more tired of being racially profiled/discriminated against. Being pulled over, because "you look suspicious" or having the cops called on me while standing in my own drive way smoking a cigar by the new couple in the neighborhood that didn't think I could have a house that nice. And then having to convince the cops that it was actually my house. Or having parents bring their kids in when my wife and I walk by. Or having some of my peers thinking I got the strat/award because I was black, and not because I actually busted my ass. I was detained once because I "fit the description" Didn't ask me my name or anything like that. Cuffed and placed in the car. Then he searched me and found my wallet...and my cac. Knowing I had done nothing wrong, but more importantly I had a cac, I figured I'd be ok. That's the world I live in everyday. That's most of our reality. The issue is, most of us can't flash the cac to get treated like a human being. Imagine a young kid who's done nothing wrong being cuffed and detained for no reason, and how he may react. I've had to deal with that for 30 years, and will continue to deal with it for many more. I'll be just fine. But I hope you guys can understand why it's happening. We've been trying to have this conversation for centuries, people are just now starting to listen and understand. I'm a believer that a slogan or  phrase does nothing...it's not actionable. But I can't scoff at the effort that is being made. 

[FLEA]

17 minutes ago, Kiloalpha said:

Yes, and no. People have been taking Portland police officers' names and badge numbers and doxxing them, leading to some pretty harrowing accounts online of police being harassed or threatened (admittedly it was a Reddit thread, I'll try to find some sources). So DHS is giving officers an identification number and that's it. Which, meets legal requirements and protects the officers. I can get behind that.

https://www.newsweek.com/38-police-officers-have-been-doxxed-during-protests-portland-dhs-says-1519530

Yes, I think the doxxing thing is a real threat that challenges the traditional openess of officers identifying themselves. In all honesty, the public doesn't have a strong need to know who these officers are. If the officers are acting in bad faith, the government/department should be handling that. Not vigilantes who take it on themselves to see justice. 

 

[pawnman]

25 minutes ago, FLEA said:

Yes, I think the doxxing thing is a real threat that challenges the traditional openess of officers identifying themselves. In all honesty, the public doesn't have a strong need to know who these officers are. If the officers are acting in bad faith, the government/department should be handling that. Not vigilantes who take it on themselves to see justice. 

 

How does the government or department handle misbehaving officers without the ability to identify them?  Not like their bros are going to tell anyone... Thin blue line and all that.

[TurnHer4]

18 minutes ago, Kiloalpha said:

Speaking for myself, the social justice stuff in sports bothers me because you're absolutely right. No American should have to feel less than another due to the basis of their skin.

I'll explain. We had an opportunity to heal some deep wounds with the George Floyd situation. I grew up in the south, and I had people who aren't political at all (and white, if that matters) who reached out to me and genuinely said "What in the was that? That's not ok." Everyone was pissed off, and black individuals across the nation stepped forward to say, as you are now, "Yep, we've been roughed up like this by cops for a long time." And, for the first time in a while, the nation sat and listened. However, in the following days, rather than starting that discussion, Black Lives Matter as an organization stepped forward, with the #BlackLivesMatter slogan, and used their power as a group to justify the riots and violence that took place in Minneapolis, because "that's the only way whites will listen." It was biblical "an eye for an eye" when the nation desperately needed MLK's civil disobedience.

I think like most people, I waited for someone else to breach the gap and start the conversation. Some tried, but all were shouted down as "not black enough" or "Uncle Toms." Hell, you should listen to the voicemails Sen. Tim Scott got after the Republicans finally got a spine and let him bring forward police reform. Didn't matter, he was hated because he wasn't for "Defund the Police." After a while it became pretty clear to me that Black Lives Matter wasn't truly about fixing the issues, it was about payback. That's been proven again and again by remarks from the founders of BLM themselves, and digging through their goals on its website.

So I'm against this massive push for BLM everywhere, and in sports, because its pandering to a group who (again in my opinion) squandered a once in a generation attempt to shake the vestiges of racism in the US. If anything, they've deliberately hardened the hearts of some people, and in many ways, that's an unforgivable sin.

Not off base at all. I appreciate the response, and I'm glad to discuss it with you or whoever else would like to. I see your point. I think BLM has been taken out of context by it's leadership. We don't all agree with what they're doing. But at it's core, BLM is a good cause. Example: The number 1 demand for OKC's BLM chapter is a grocery store on the inner city east side. They can't even get groceries in their own neighborhood. The deeper issue is where they have to go to get groceries...the areas that "they don't belong" Fully agree BLM's leadership has gone rouge. That doesn't mean there aren't people out there looking for real change. I ask that you look beyond that and see the good that is happening. People like to bring up MLK for his contributions...absolute legend. However, that Civil Disobedience you speak of got him voted as the most hated man in America in 1967, and murdered in 1968. Btw the bullet didn't kill him...they let him die on the table. I agree with the pandering comment. Playing the Black National Anthem before a game, won't do anything for anyone. Help us. Help others to understand that we don't all want to tear down this country, we just won't people to listen and understand. Also, I'm fully against looters, not so much riots. However, not much has been accomplished civilly in this country when it comes to change.

Edited July 24, 2020 by TurnHer4

[Guardian]

I agree, everyone should not have equality of outcome, they should have equality of opportunity. All men are created equal.
Which is why I’m certain you support a 100% redistributed inheritance and death tax, right? (I’m actually sure you don’t, and I’ve never understood this stance).

Whoa....we agree if I read your statement correctly.

[Guardian]

For those of you that are tired of the Social Justice stuff before and during sporting events, I get it. Hell, I even agree a little. However, I am more tired of being racially profiled/discriminated against. Being pulled over, because "you look suspicious" or having the cops called on me while standing in my own drive way smoking a cigar by the new couple in the neighborhood that didn't think I could have a house that nice. And then having to convince the cops that it was actually my house. Or having parents bring their kids in when my wife and I walk by. Or having some of my peers thinking I got the strat/award because I was black, and not because I actually busted my ass. I was detained once because I "fit the description" Didn't ask me my name or anything like that. Cuffed and placed in the car. Then he searched me and found my wallet...and my cac. Knowing I had done nothing wrong, but more importantly I had a cac, I figured I'd be ok. That's the world I live in everyday. That's most of our reality. The issue is, most of us can't flash the cac to get treated like a human being. Imagine a young kid who's done nothing wrong being cuffed and detained for no reason, and how he may react. I've had to deal with that for 30 years, and will continue to deal with it for many more. I'll be just fine. But I hope you guys can understand why it's happening. We've been trying to have this conversation for centuries, people are just now starting to listen and understand. I'm a believer that a slogan or  phrase does nothing...it's not actionable. But I can't scoff at the effort that is being made. 

I’m glad you don’t want any of that stuff. And neither do I. But nothing above is illegal or racist. And the fact that you aren’t in jail, haven’t been illegally detained is good proof of that the system isn’t racist. If your neighbors have a preference, bias, or Prejudice, who cares? I for one am glad I can’t force other people’s thoughts or actions and live in a country where that isn’t (or didn’t use to be)the case. I for one would rather know that these people have these problems with me because of a trait I have that I can’t control. At least then I know it and can avoid them.

What I don’t like is preferential treatment and getting ahead because of colors of skin or attributes that one can’t control instead of good honest hard work with results that differentiates you from your peers and makes your playing field unequal because you work hard.

I wouldn’t think being detained because I match the description of someone is a bad thing. Let’s me know that the system is out there working for me and my family. Now if I had anything unjustly happened, false accusations, some sort of systematic racism (which I haven’t heard of or seen any actual examples) then show us. I bet you would find lots of people willing to help change the system. As it stands now that doesn’t seem to be the case.

Just people being offended for how the best country in the world works. And there is no such thing as the right to not be offended.

[Guardian]

I wish the movement would pick a different moniker than the same one as the group Black Lives Matter as that group is not what our country is about and that name doesn’t accurately represent the group. I believe that if that was done you would find 99.9% of Americans support equality of opportunity.