The WOKE Thread (Merged from WTF?)

[nsplayr]

Hey @Guardian, a word of honest advice. You’re debating like a self-righteous dick and it’s likely turning some people off to potentially valid points that you make. Not being the IP here but rather simple peer-to-peer debriefing from the sortie.

And trust me, I am an expert at arguing like a self-righteous dick. I did it here and elsewhere for many years. I’m not anywhere near perfect now, but am actively trying to be better and give more people the benefit of the doubt more often and engage in good faith whenever possible.

[nsplayr]

16 minutes ago, magnetfreezer said:

Wearing nametags helps develop rapport/relations in less confrontational situations. When danger increases like in this case, removing them increases OPSEC. AF paints over crew names on aircraft (AFI 21-101/105) before deployment and crews often remove nametags; doesn't mean there was no accountability for who was flying a certain sortie. The agency will know who they have assigned on a particular patrol, dispatch records, etc. and can use interview and investigation to find the rest.

Two issues here: first, the federal LEOs in Portland, from what I understand, were not clearly identifying what agency they were with (BOP, US Marshals, ICE, etc.) nor did they have individual ID or badge numbers on their uniforms. This prevents any person interacting with them from lodging a complaint because it’s totally unclear who you would even call or how to describe one officer from another. If I am misunderstanding the details of what happened / is happening with that operation in Portland I’m open learning the truth.

Second, policing your own citizens in the homeland is fundamentally different than military operations overseas and I’d rather error on the side of stringently upholding citizens civil liberties than on the side of OPSEC for the LEOs involved. I don’t find any valid reasons why an agency affiliation and individualized ID number violates the personal security of the LEOs out there doing difficult work nor would it hurt the overall OPSEC of their mission, which was crowd control and defense of facilities, not undercover work.

Also not for nothing, as a member of the national guard, I 100% want the American people to very clearly understand when they are interacting with local or state LEOs, federal LEOs, or my fellow Guardsmen. All of those institutions have different missions and conflating them, especially in controversial and confrontational situations, only serves to drag down the trust in all of the institutions at once. 

Edited July 25, 2020 by nsplayr

[TurnHer4]

3 hours ago, lloyd christmas said:

Excellent insight TurnHer4   

There is a narrative out there that suggests our country is overtly racist, run by racists, founded on racism and policed by racist officers who are enforcing racist laws.  What I see in each of those instances is more complicated than the narrative suggests.  The narrative is also given no context whatsoever and the starting point is never the truth.  There is more to the story and there are different sides to each story.  We must do our best to understand the truth and see things as they truly are.  

Here is what bothers me.  Because of my political beliefs and conservative views, I am labeled a racist, sexist, xenophobic bigot.  I have even been called a Nazi to my face.  In reality, I am living the best life I know how to while trying to be the best father, husband, son, uncle, coworker and neighbor that I can be.  I feel like I am being punished for sins that I did not commit.  We are headed in the wrong direction.  The answer to our society's injustices towards minorities will not and can not be fixed by applying the same type mind set towards whites.  Equality goes both ways.  It is very hard for folks like me that just want left alone to see what is going on in politics, sports, hollywood and academia.  I do not want to see BLM painted on our city streets or on a pitcher's mound during a baseball game.  I do not want to see looting, rioting, arson, assault or vandalism in our streets in the name of an issue that is not discussed honestly.  Our society has it's issues, that is for sure.  But, we can't fix hate with hate.  

 

All of those instances are certainly nuanced. There is always more to the story, but my truth may not be someone else's. I see people placing those labels on people like you all the time, and it is unwarranted. At the same time, I've been called a thug, gangsta, you name it. Also unwarranted. As a right leaner myself, I see it. I feel like I was punished for my skin color and where I grew up. It indeed sucks. Could you imagine someone not liking you or thinking you're a threat just based on skin color or where you were raised. I think you can based on your post. Believe me, I'm having these discussions on both sides. I 100% agree we can't go backwards, but I don't think we are. We definitely can not apply the same mindset towards whites, it's counterproductive. I think I saw someone say they were the silent majority. Well, I'm in the silent majority of black people that want to move forward. We don't want BLM on jerseys or mounds or courts. Or the black national anthem played at games, we don't want those things. What we want are the things I've posted today. But we're being over shadowed by the noise makers and "the other side" is taking that and placing that on all the people that want real change. BUT! In the words of the legend Capt Jack Sparrow, "Take what you can, give nothing back" No movement is perfect and I feel like folks are asking for it to be perfect before they are willing to listen. I don't think the country was founded on racism. I do know that when they said all men are created equal, they didn't mean black people. Dope discussion bro, thanx for your question.

[Guardian]

Hey [mention=77584]Guardian[/mention], a word of honest advice. You’re debating like a self-righteous dick and it’s likely turning some people off to potentially valid points that you make. Not being the IP here but rather simple peer-to-peer debriefing from the sortie.
And trust me, I am an expert at arguing like a self-righteous dick. I did it here and elsewhere for many years. I’m not anywhere near perfect now, but am actively trying to be better and give more people the benefit of the doubt more often and engage in good faith whenever possible.

Thanks for the words. I appreciate it. I’ll look to praise more in public and criticize in private.

Open to listening to how better to make my points and not letting my own personality get in the way of the facts. Let me know.

[TurnHer4]

6 hours ago, Guardian said:

 

Dude. Nice. Thanks. Super appreciate you taking the time to answer and provide discourse. I agree with a lot of what you said.

However I am trying to change your mind. I would like to see the individual examples you speak of and the details behind the jail or punishment.

I also don’t see any evidence (maybe yet) of systematic racism. Getting called on the cops based on skin color is how you feel things went down. Did you go back and ask? Is it the truth? Let’s assume for this argument it is. Ok. So two people called the cops. How many white people are there in the country.

I just get the feeling because of isolated incidents of a couple of people that all (white) people are getting biased and prejudiced against. Isn’t that what we are fighting against? So I challenge all people that think there is a systematic problem to try and identify it and put your finger directly on “it”. And if you can’t, then maybe it’s at a micro or individual level and those are the levels that need to be addressed. Not by calling all or most whites people racist. There are some good arguments out there how blacks and some minorities are actually racist and receive the privileges of this society more so than majorities. Any thoughts on that?

People being persecuted for a trait they can’t control? (Race, sex, age, etc). Isn’t that racism at its very core? Do things like this exist on all sides? Why can’t we focus on the measure of the individual instead of applying the crimes or mentalities of one or few to the many?

Dude. I really appreciate you engaging. I’m glad to find someone that will sit and talk and not get emotional without thought. Thank you.
 

 

I'll have to dig for those examples. Admittedly anecdotal. Specific example from personal experience. I was an RA in college, and one of my residence tag was stolen. So I called campus police. While we were getting it worked out, I asked the cop why I had been harassed by campus police for the past 3 years. He said oh shit, you're the guy that drives that green cutlass supreme. I said yeah that one right there. He said oh we thought you were a local drug dealer. We have a profile on you at the precinct. I asked why. He said remember a while back when campus SWAT rolled you up (yes we had a SWAT team for some reason. I said yeah wtf was that about. He said a lady called us and said you were selling drugs in a parking lot and had a prostitute with you. I said yeah I had to get my Det CC to come out and convince them I was a student and in ROTC. He said we asked her why she made the call and she said because he's black and drives a ghetto green car. After your commander came out, we were still convinced you were dealing, because honestly you look like a drug dealer and your car screams drug dealer. So whenever we saw you, we would follow you, or pull you over to see if you had anything in the car. I said I appreciate your honesty, but take me off your wall. He said he would, and I was never bothered again. You may think thats just good policing, I think that's ed up. On your isolated incident comment; a guy driving an 80s mobile got busted with drugs and now anyone that resembles that description is treated as such. It's happened to me. I was pulled over going home and the cop said "you just look suspicious man" I was just driving down the street. But because of a few isolated incidents in my area, I was treated like a criminal. So I get it, it sucks. If you believe there is racism, but you don't believe people will use their position, power, job etc to hold other people down I find that hard to believe. And I think that happens with all races. It's on both sides, and that's why I'm trying to bridge the gap. Can you give me an example of a minority receiving privileges of this society more than the majority? I'd like to hear that. 

 

I love this discussion. Thats one thing I like about the AF. We can have differing opinions, talk about it and learn from one another. It will not effect our mission. I have a solid bro that thinks along the same lies as some of you. We as black officers can't exile him. We need to listen and understand his perspective. I can trust him to execute on the jet, and vice versa with our differing views. We're gonna go rage and when we get back, have a beer and continue the discussion. Just because he thinks a certain way doesn't mean he's not a solid bro. I think some people are missing that. 

[Clark Griswold]

2 hours ago, TurnHer4 said:

Excellent question. The answer is the same way you get better at being an aviator. And that's in the debrief. Which is what I think is happening right now on this thread. Take off the rank, biases, etc and have an open discussion. Listening to the feedback and applying it. I say we need to get people to understand that there are those that have hatred in their heart for minorities and non-minorities a like.Racism in most cases is covert and subtle. I ask that when we see it from anyone, squash that shit. I want you to understand my perspective and to not down play the way I view something. You may not every see it, but if and when you do, call it out. I understand what Guardian is saying, and I'll reflect on that. I ask that others do the same with different perspectives.

Likewise.

Conversation is fine but IMO the volume on the side screaming for the conversation is so loud that it doesn't hear the reply to it or doesn't really want to hear what the other side really thinks.  

Decrying racism and racist behavior is fine but it must be equally applied and the reality that we know can not be denied, the why and how to change it is the real tradespace where something can be done. Some can not be a victim, also an equal and in some contexts a bit better, we either truly believe others are equals or not, there is no path forward where we are equals some of the time but sometimes not.

That said I also am aware of the reality of the other side, they along with others have not gotten a fair shake and there is a reason for them to agitate for change.  Anodyne way to describe America's situation with our historical legacies but it is an acknowledgement. 

[Homestar]

10 hours ago, nsplayr said:

Also not for nothing, as a member of the national guard, I 100% want the American people to very clearly understand when they are interacting with local or state LEOs, federal LEOs, or my fellow Guardsmen.

This is the crux of the issue for me. Too many law enforcement agencies look like SEAL team 6 out there. It sends the wrong message and blends two VERY different missions in the minds and eyes of the People.

[SocialD]

17 minutes ago, Homestar said:

This is the crux of the issue for me. Too many law enforcement agencies look like SEAL team 6 out there. It sends the wrong message and blends two VERY different missions in the minds and eyes of the People.

 

Apparently, they need LEPs.  May have to check some out from the squadron for my next PDX layover.  

[Homestar]

3 hours ago, SocialD said:

 

Apparently, they need LEPs.  May have to check some out from the squadron for my next PDX layover.  

yeah, that's messed up. They could probably hit up any tanker or bomber squadron for some sweet, lightly-used PLZT goggles

[FLEA]

I think we need to recognize the fact that a lot of this tension is cyclical. The more violent protest/rioters become the more militant the police will become. The more militant the police become, the more violent the protest/rioters become. 

For federal police i don't see OCP's being an issue as a significant portion of their work often takes place in interagency or covert environments that are very paramilitary in nature often with the DoD as well. I believe the photo circulating above is Border Patrol special tactics which makes sense why they would have OCP's given the work they do in counter cartel raids/etc...

I'm also reminded that we, the DoD, sort of asked for this when we told State Department we wouldn't do civil training for Security Force Assistance in Afghanistan and Iraq and deploying as advisors became a key role for federal law enforcement. (Probably the right decision but the ramifications is that Federal law enforcement gained a pretty significant paramilitary mission)

The question of "why are they wearing it here, doing this?" Is probably appropriate. But my guess is the department can't afford 400 sets of uniforms for different environments/seasons/weather like the Navy. 

Edited July 25, 2020 by FLEA

[nsplayr]

There’s been a long discussion over what uniforms police in America should I wear and I fall strongly on the side of as civilianized and non-confrontational as possible while still allowing officers to carry all the gear they need and command the respect they deserve.

@FLEA is spot on saying tension is cyclical and since we can’t control non-organized protesters, let’s do what we can with the folks we can control ie our LEOs and do what’s possible to de-escalate. At the same time let’s also have political and activist leaders call for de-escalation and non-violence as well. You can’t and shouldn’t expect to quell unrest in a democratic republic via crackdowns (eg “dominating the battle space”), it has to be mutual reductions in force and those who are in power and sworn officers of the law should take the lead.

This is a good read on the subject: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-08-18/a-history-of-police-uniforms-and-why-they-matter

I think everyone knows that wearing different clothes makes you feel different. It’s why you dress up for church and “sun’s out, guns out” at the beach and why I at least feel a specific type of aircrew pride throwing on the green bag. For me, it’s even more so in the bag than when wearing the multicam flight suit that IMHO makes us all look like we’re in the Army despite the advantages of the two-piece style while shitting or sweating.

On active duty we were issued combat shirts at one point to pair with body armor and the multicam bottoms and boy did we feel like Billy Badasses despite no actual increase in combat lethality. SEALs of the sky indeed 😅

All that to say: police, even federal LEOs, should wear uniforms that look like civilian police uniforms, especially when patrolling American cities and towns. It actually matters in how the public perceives and treats them. And they should always be identifiable with specific department badges and individual badge or ID numbers if not names. 

If you’re an adviser in Iraq or raiding some cartel safe house on the border or SWAT, it’s a different situation obviously.

Edited July 25, 2020 by nsplayr

[M2]

First, the DoD doesn't have exclusive rights to camouflage uniforms.   

Secondly, anyone who doesn't have firsthand experience of what police officers go through on a daily basis needs to request a ride-along from their local substation.  

The police weren't the ones who raised the stakes, they're simply responding accordingly.  Like the rest of us, they're putting the odds as much in their favor as possible.   As John Steinbeck once said, “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!”

Any one of us would do the same...

[M2]

1 hour ago, FLEA said:

The question of "why are they wearing it here, doing this?" Is probably appropriate. But my guess is the department can't afford 400 sets of uniforms for different environments/seasons/weather like the Navy. 

I have a buddy who is a local constable lieutenant.  His department is buying up old ACU uniforms because they can't afford OCPs.  Many agencies are in the same boat.

Plus, I wonder how many in the USAF refused their issued $500+ Massif jackets because it wasn't needed?   I doubt many.  If our organizations are going to hand out gear, the vast majority are going to take and use it!

[Sim]

[pawnman]

4 hours ago, M2 said:

First, the DoD doesn't have exclusive rights to camouflage uniforms.   

Secondly, anyone who doesn't have firsthand experience of what police officers go through on a daily basis needs to request a ride-along from their local substation.  

The police weren't the ones who raised the stakes, they're simply responding accordingly.  Like the rest of us, they're putting the odds as much in their favor as possible.   As John Steinbeck once said, “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!”

Any one of us would do the same...

The police absolutely raised the stakes, and we let them.  Post 9-11, we went from peace officers to telling every cop they were the frontline in the war on terrorism here at home.  We radically altered the viewpoint that they were here to serve the public and turned them into a force that is constantly seeking out potential life-threatening enemies.  And turns out if you roll into every situation expecting to face an armed and motivated enemy, you become much more trigger happy.

I don't fully blame the cops, although their training programs certainly bear some of the blame.  We did this to ourselves by teaching cops that putting the odds in their favor to the max extent possible overruled all other considerations, including the rights of the citizens they are policing.

[Lawman]

The police absolutely raised the stakes, and we let them.  Post 9-11, we went from peace officers to telling every cop they were the frontline in the war on terrorism here at home.  We radically altered the viewpoint that they were here to serve the public and turned them into a force that is constantly seeking out potential life-threatening enemies.  And turns out if you roll into every situation expecting to face an armed and motivated enemy, you become much more trigger happy.
I don't fully blame the cops, although their training programs certainly bear some of the blame.  We did this to ourselves by teaching cops that putting the odds in their favor to the max extent possible overruled all other considerations, including the rights of the citizens they are policing.

Have you ever participated in any of those training regimes? Are you just parroting the “research” of agenda reinforcing media outlets?

There are in a given year ~1000 total deaths at the hands of an officer involved shooting. In that same year there are ~250 million police encounters which require an officer to go through the numbers that may result in a warning, arrest, use of force, etc.

So ~.0004 percent of police interactions (most of which are responsive in nature) actually end with somebody dying at the hands of a cop. Trigger happy... right...

This myth that cops somehow fancy themselves a bunch of snake eater/ranger Bn wannabes needs to go. It’s crap and the fact that they are “militarized” has nothing to do with a desire to be a military force and everything to do with needing gear that holds up to the ever expanding list of jobs we give them, having a budget that is paltry, and using the best outlet to get what you need, the military yard sale that we happily provide.


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[Alpharatz]

6 hours ago, nsplayr said:

There’s been a long discussion over what uniforms police in America should I wear and I fall strongly on the side of as civilianized and non-confrontational as possible while still allowing officers to carry all the gear they need and command the respect they deserve.

@FLEA is spot on saying tension is cyclical and since we can’t control non-organized protesters, let’s do what we can with the folks we can control ie our LEOs and do what’s possible to de-escalate. At the same time let’s also have political and activist leaders call for de-escalation and non-violence as well. You can’t and shouldn’t expect to quell unrest in a democratic republic via crackdowns (eg “dominating the battle space”), it has to be mutual reductions in force and those who are in power and sworn officers of the law should take the lead.

This is a good read on the subject: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-08-18/a-history-of-police-uniforms-and-why-they-matter

I think everyone knows that wearing different clothes makes you feel different. It’s why you dress up for church and “sun’s out, guns out” at the beach and why I at least feel a specific type of aircrew pride throwing on the green bag. For me, it’s even more so in the bag than when wearing the multicam flight suit that IMHO makes us all look like we’re in the Army despite the advantages of the two-piece style while shitting or sweating.

On active duty we were issued combat shirts at one point to pair with body armor and the multicam bottoms and boy did we feel like Billy Badasses despite no actual increase in combat lethality. SEALs of the sky indeed 😅

All that to say: police, even federal LEOs, should wear uniforms that look like civilian police uniforms, especially when patrolling American cities and towns. It actually matters in how the public perceives and treats them. And they should always be identifiable with specific department badges and individual badge or ID numbers if not names. 

If you’re an adviser in Iraq or raiding some cartel safe house on the border or SWAT, it’s a different situation obviously.

Police Chiefs to wear business casual attire with a concealed pistol.  Ditch the four star collar rank unless you happen to be a retired general..Detectives as usual..business casual with concealed pistols...LT's....ditch the military rank for the word Lieutenant..Sgt's can keep chevrons..Patrol staff to ditch the battle rattle motif except for body armour under the shirt.  Sergeants may patrol with rifles.  All other patrol personnel patrol with shotguns..Pistols limited to 10 round magazines....Expending a 10 round magazine to be carefully evaluated...

Edited July 26, 2020 by Alpharatz
punctuation

[SurelySerious]

13 minutes ago, Alpharatz said:

Police Chiefs to wear business casual attire with a concealed pistol.  Ditch the four star collar rank unless you happen to be a retired general..Detectives as usual..business casual with concealed pistols...LT's....ditch the military rank for the word Lieutenant..Sgt's can keep chevrons..Patrol staff to ditch the battle rattle motif except for body armour under the shirt.  Sergeants may patrol with rifles.  All other patrol personnel patrol with shotguns..Pistols limited to 10 round magazines....Expending a 10 round magazine to be carefully evaluated...

Wait, your edit was for punctuation? Should try again for coherence. 

[magnetfreezer]

45 minutes ago, Alpharatz said:

Police Chiefs to wear business casual attire with a concealed pistol.  Ditch the four star collar rank unless you happen to be a retired general..Detectives as usual..business casual with concealed pistols...LT's....ditch the military rank for the word Lieutenant..Sgt's can keep chevrons..Patrol staff to ditch the battle rattle motif except for body armour under the shirt.  Sergeants may patrol with rifles.  All other patrol personnel patrol with shotguns..Pistols limited to 10 round magazines....Expending a 10 round magazine to be carefully evaluated...

The North Hollywood bank robbery shootout (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout) and subsequent encounters with criminals with higher power weapons/body armor drove the need for rifles in patrol units. Most patrol units keep the AR in the trunk unless needed/increased threat condition, so that will reduce perceived militarization during peaceful encounters while ensuring individual units quick access to firepower when needed.

[Lawman]

The North Hollywood bank robbery shootout (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout) and subsequent encounters with criminals with higher power weapons/body armor drove the need for rifles in patrol units. Most patrol units keep the AR in the trunk unless needed/increased threat condition, so that will reduce perceived militarization during peaceful encounters while ensuring individual units quick access to firepower when needed.

I hear this line of stupid oddly enough from some of the very same people that vehemently defend the right of the citizenry to own spooky black plastic rifles.

Saying cops should deliberately ignore a half a century of firearms technological development for the sake of “look less like the military I associate you with in my head” would be akin to saying “carry a revolver instead of a semi-auto pistol because screw actual usage and capability I want to feel better about the way you dress for work.”


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[Alpharatz]

23 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

Wait, your edit was for punctuation? Should try again for coherence. 

Go lick your ice cream cone......

[SurelySerious]

45 minutes ago, Alpharatz said:

Go lick your ice cream cone......

Aw jeez man, really got me with that one. 

[lloyd christmas]

A prediction.  There are undercover federal agents in the crowds in Portland and Seattle.  They are running intel and building cases on 50 - 100 people.  In a few weeks, you will see raids on where these 50 - 100 people live.  They will be arrested and charged with serious federal crimes such as domestic terrorism, assault on federal officers, arson etc.  They will be denied bail and will face decades in federal prison.  That is how these protests will end.  The rest of these criminals will wonder if they are next and start to rethink their decisions.  

[SurelySerious]

I sincerely hope if that’s the case, they roll up the assholes with the high powered lasers first. 

[VTguy]

On 7/25/2020 at 8:44 PM, Alpharatz said:

Police Chiefs to wear business casual attire with a concealed pistol.  Ditch the four star collar rank unless you happen to be a retired general..Detectives as usual..business casual with concealed pistols...LT's....ditch the military rank for the word Lieutenant..Sgt's can keep chevrons..Patrol staff to ditch the battle rattle motif except for body armour under the shirt.  Sergeants may patrol with rifles.  All other patrol personnel patrol with shotguns..Pistols limited to 10 round magazines....Expending a 10 round magazine to be carefully evaluated...

Back when I was active duty I used to have a similar perspective about police being overly-militarized. But then I went to the Guard, became a cop/detective, and the perspective changed. Its easy to look at social media and think police are out of control. Sure, every department has one or two tackleberries who love gear and guns. But everything our patrol guys carry on their person or in their vehicles has a distinct purpose. Police tools and tactics are inherently reactive to trends in greater society and the criminal element.

AR-15s and similar high powered, semi-auto rifles have become more commonplace in American homes. Naturally, they have become more prevalent in barricaded gunman incidents, domestic violence incidents, active shooters, etc. A 5.56 round will go through a patrol car and a soft kevlar vest like a knife through butter. Last year one of my buddies was shot and killed by an armed fugitive despite wearing a kevlar vest. Just a few weeks ago a rookie in my area was shot and killed through a door on a domestic violence incident. I'm sorry if people get butt hurt seeing us wearing plate carriers while we respond to armed subjects...but I'd rather not go to any more funerals.

I think there is alot of room for police in the US to be reformed. There are some legitimately good ideas floating around out there. But they aren't getting real traction because of the hyperbole and political agendas that benefit from casting all cops as wannabe soldiers or racist thugs.