The WOKE Thread (Merged from WTF?)

[sixblades]

1 hour ago, FLEA said:

Wasn't meant to illustrate nKs travel habbits. It was meant to illustrate mortality is a dumb measure. Countries report their own mortality and do so by their own standards. It's more than likely not a priority of decision makers to save every last human being either. 

I get it that we don't know with 100% certainty how other countries report their metrics, but with that line of reasoning how can you even trust the numbers that we report. It would be advantageous to under-report to reduce constrictive measures, so does the US just not get how to accurately attribute mortality to its real cause?  The US accounts for 24% of infections and 22% of deaths with only 4% of the world's population. We're not the only nation that has significant amounts of tourism, business travel, or transient citizens. Hindsight is 20/20, but this isn't a situation where we're surprised as we look back at how we got here. 

EDIT: Agree with you that different testing measures as well as geographic and demographic conditions should be considered when comparing metrics, but I do expect our medical and scientific experts to exhibit the type of critical thinking skills you refer to. Our elected officials are there to make tough decisions, and whether they make effectives ones are something we subjectively discuss, but our worldwide scientific community is there to objectively report the truth data. Whether sovereign nations are intentionally misreporting is up for debate, but I don't believe the world is playing a big game of "gotcha!" against the US because we just want to fall on our own sword.

Edited August 28, 2020 by sixblades
quoted post edited

[DosXX]

1 hour ago, FLEA said:

Wasn't meant to illustrate nKs travel habbits. It was meant to illustrate mortality is a dumb measure. 

I'm well aware. Just wanted to point out it's an example of the "reduction to absurdity" fallacy where you mischaracterize an opposing argument to make it seem ridiculous.  It's only dumb if you only take it at face value to that extreme end, and nobody is saying that only deaths matter and nothing else.

When people argue that mortality is an important measure they do so under the context of other industriazed globalized countries that have fared better. Nobody who says mortality is the most important measure would argue NK is doing the best at managing COVID because it ignores the obvious point that NK has no COVID to handle in the first place (or that they lie and employ draconian policies). That's why I followed with countries that someone who highly values mortality would actually make an argument for.

[FLEA]

2 hours ago, DosXX said:

I'm well aware. Just wanted to point out it's an example of the "reduction to absurdity" fallacy where you mischaracterize an opposing argument to make it seem ridiculous.  It's only dumb if you only take it at face value to that extreme end, and nobody is saying that only deaths matter and nothing else.

When people argue that mortality is an important measure they do so under the context of other industriazed globalized countries that have fared better. Nobody who says mortality is the most important measure would argue NK is doing the best at managing COVID because it ignores the obvious point that NK has no COVID to handle in the first place (or that they lie and employ draconian policies). That's why I followed with countries that someone who highly values mortality would actually make an argument for.

Ah ok. Can you explain to me specifically what policies sK and JP implemented that you would have reccommended the POTUS implement? 

 

[brabus]

5 hours ago, sixblades said:

but with that line of reasoning how can you even trust the numbers that we report.

Good point; our’s are fucked, and not in the way that you probably think. The CDC has said our infection numbers are likely 10 times higher than reported (due to tens of millions having it, but not going to the hospital/getting tested). That significantly reduces the actual mortality rate. 

I’m hopeful that Japan and other nations aren’t paying hospitals more money for reporting cause of death as COVID vs. something else. So we have inflated numbers on deaths that aren’t valid...another thing that reduces mortality rate even further. And since this doesn’t support your opinion, you’ll likely come at me screaming “source!” Multiple family friends who work in hospital administration and deal with the government money directly, plus my own uncle’s death being a perfect example of this “money scheme” (because that’s what it is...hospitals are businesses).

 

[Negatory]

You’re right about infections, the scientific view now is COVID infections are probably on the order of magnitude 10 times higher than test results show.

But deaths are probably much closer than you or a random second hand source you know give credit. You can’t dismiss deaths just because doing so fits your narrative, either.

A relatively accurate way to determine COVID effect is to assume that, compared to previous years, any change in death rate is likely due to COVID. Just take the excess deaths over 2019, 2018, 2017, etc., compare it to 2020, and you have a pretty close estimate to its impact.

Since March, ~200,000 more people than usual have died in the US. So that’s our best estimate at actual impact. So if we say 10 times the confirmed cases, or 60 million cases, that means 0.3% mortality for the population at large. Doesn’t sound that bad, only like 5-10 times worse than the flu based on similar analysis.

Still doesn’t take into account the age based mortality, which really are where the hard questions lie. If 70+ year olds have an estimated 5-15% mortality rate that goes up the older you are, how does that change the calculus? People don’t like going down this path, because it’s easier to ignore that and focus on the fact that working age folks would probably be fine. But it should be the center of the moral question:

Is the economy worth a large amount of deaths of older Americans? That’s what the reopen/herd immunity plan does. Is there a way to effectively isolate them from the rest of society (would require social assistance never before seen in the US)? How do we pay for it? Who accepts the risk? Where do you draw the line?

The science is real and can accurately enough show death rates and infections to action on. Let’s stop arguing about CDC data for no reason and start arguing about the more important policy questions that must be answered.

Edited August 28, 2020 by brawnie

[TreeA10]

I'm not a big conspiracy guy and don't own a tinfoil hat but the reporting of cases and deaths has become suspect.  A guy in Florida had COVID and was involved in a fatal crash on his motorcycle.  Cause of death is listed as COVID.  Similar incidents have occurred in other states.  People have signed up to get tested for COVID and leave without being tested and are contacted later saying they tested positive.  What is driving the need to get numbers of deaths and positives tests up?  In the grand accounting scheme, the actual numbers falsely attributed to COVID is probably small in comparison to real numbers but why inflate the numbers?

[Negatory]

1 minute ago, TreeA10 said:

In the grand accounting scheme, the actual numbers falsely attributed to COVID is probably small in comparison to real numbers but why inflate the numbers?

Do you ever think that you are being propagandized? Because that’s what this is. It’s intentional divisive spoofer comm, to reduce your trust in the actually fairly accurate data we have to make decisions on.

Im not saying the actual instances of fraud you or Brabus talked about didn’t happen. I’m sure they did. But you are subconsciously being told to apply these isolated instances - which are almost meaningless in the big picture - to literally the entire data set.

[Clark Griswold]

I'm not a big conspiracy guy and don't own a tinfoil hat but the reporting of cases and deaths has become suspect.  A guy in Florida had COVID and was involved in a fatal crash on his motorcycle.  Cause of death is listed as COVID.  Similar incidents have occurred in other states.  People have signed up to get tested for COVID and leave without being tested and are contacted later saying they tested positive.  What is driving the need to get numbers of deaths and positives tests up?  In the grand accounting scheme, the actual numbers falsely attributed to COVID is probably small in comparison to real numbers but why inflate the numbers?

Money - Medicare pays 20% more if cause of death is listed as COVID

Not sure if the above listed example of suspicious relation to COVID would square with that but it seems like hospital administrators are gaming the COVID relief legislation and policies for additional funds


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[DosXX]

4 hours ago, FLEA said:

Ah ok. Can you explain to me specifically what policies sK and JP implemented that you would have reccommended the POTUS implement? 

 

Low hanging fruit would be the opposite of what I listed at the end. So wearing his mask and calling it patriotic shortly after CDC changed guidance rather than months after, putting political pressure on certain states/cities to SHUT DOWN instead of "LIBERATE", establishing a cautionary tone that encouraged a culture of safety in the national conscious rather than an overconfident one that fueled conspiracies such as plandemic, etc. One of the biggest factors in their success was their contact tracing program, so a national voluntary contact tracing program established through FEMA after the national emergency was declared could have been very effective. Airport screenings were another weak point of ours so implementing a general screening operation through TSA and a short turnaround testing operation through Customs for travelers visiting from hot zones would have been useful. In addition, disbanding the NSC pandemic response team prior to the virus was detrimental to our initial response and defunding the NIH funds for coronavirus research in May was a seemingly politically motivated mistake. Just to be clear again I don't put all the blame on the administration, so I don't think doing all this on their own would put us on par with those countries either.

[FLEA]

1 minute ago, DosXX said:

Low hanging fruit would be the opposite of what I listed at the end. So wearing his mask and calling it patriotic shortly after CDC changed guidance rather than months after, putting political pressure on certain states/cities to SHUT DOWN instead of "LIBERATE", establishing a cautionary tone that encouraged a culture of safety in the national conscious rather than an overconfident one that fueled conspiracies such as plandemic, etc. One of the biggest factors in their success was their contact tracing program, so a national voluntary contact tracing program established through FEMA after the national emergency was declared could have been very effective. Airport screenings were another weak point of ours so implementing a general screening operation through TSA and a short turnaround testing operation through Customs for travelers visiting from hot zones would have been useful. In addition, disbanding the NSC pandemic response team prior to the virus was detrimental to our initial response and defunding the NIH funds for coronavirus research in May was a seemingly politically motivated mistake. Just to be clear again I don't put all the blame on the administration, so I don't think doing all this on their own would put us on par with those countries either.

So just to be clear, you can't name a single law, executive action, or national policy instituted in sK or JP in their COVID response, but you can name a bunch of things you think we should have done. Copy.

[Prozac]

1 hour ago, TreeA10 said:

I'm not a big conspiracy guy and don't own a tinfoil hat but the reporting of cases and deaths has become suspect.  A guy in Florida had COVID and was involved in a fatal crash on his motorcycle.  Cause of death is listed as COVID.  Similar incidents have occurred in other states.  People have signed up to get tested for COVID and leave without being tested and are contacted later saying they tested positive.  What is driving the need to get numbers of deaths and positives tests up?  In the grand accounting scheme, the actual numbers falsely attributed to COVID is probably small in comparison to real numbers but why inflate the numbers?

I’ve heard this from a lot of folks and seen a lot of similar Facebook posts. Yet there never seems to be any proof to back these stories up. Care to provide some form of documentation that says this incident actually happened the way you claim it did?

[Negatory]

10 minutes ago, FLEA said:

So just to be clear, you can't name a single law, executive action, or national policy instituted in sK or JP in their COVID response, but you can name a bunch of things you think we should have done. Copy.

Dude he named a bunch of things a leader could have done to LEAD more effectively. A pandemic is exacerbated by the population and how they perceive and enact guidance. Not making a strategy or backing up those that did (e.g. the CDC) is a large contributing factor to why we are here. How’d you get so blinded by bias?

Edited August 28, 2020 by brawnie

[FLEA]

2 minutes ago, brawnie said:

Dude he named a bunch of things a leader could have done to LEAD more effectively. A pandemic is caused by the population and how they perceive guidance. Not making a strategy or backing up those that did (e.g. the CDC) is a large contributing factor to why we are here. How’d you get so blinded by bias?

Ummmmm, he didn't answer the question I asked?....

I didn't ask what we could have done. I asked what JP and sK did. He didn't answer that. He made an assertion they handled the pandemic better. I made a very honest and curious inquiry to find out why he believed that. He wasn't able to back up his assertion. Not that hard to follow man. 

Edited August 28, 2020 by FLEA

[DosXX]

22 minutes ago, FLEA said:

So just to be clear, you can't name a single law, executive action, or national policy instituted in sK or JP in their COVID response, but you can name a bunch of things you think we should have done. Copy.

Idk if you just didn't read or are being intentionally obtuse. I specifically stated their national contact tracing program as the most important policy they did and how we could replicate it here through the executive branch. I also mentioned their airport screening policies and how we could do something similar here. 

Edited August 28, 2020 by DosXX

[brickhistory]

My regrets that the 17 yr old in Kenosha will have to deal with the aftermath, but from a getting it done aspect, he took out three skinnies, two permanently, while retreating/getting beaten.  All three "peaceful protesters" have violent felony records.

And at least one of them was armed.

Both sides are playing that game now.

Not a game anymore.

 

 

[Prozac]

1 hour ago, Clark Griswold said:

Money - Medicare pays 20% more if cause of death is listed as COVID

Not sure if the above listed example of suspicious relation to COVID would square with that but it seems like hospital administrators are gaming the COVID relief legislation and policies for additional funds


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

https://www.denverpost.com/2020/05/20/coronavirus-covid-medicare-payments-hospitals/

Not true. Here is an article from the Denver Post that explains why government reimbursement to hospitals is higher for treatment of Covid-19 patients, but that there is no extra money associated with reporting deaths. This higher reimbursement is limited to patients age 65 or older and dependent on Medicare, which typically does not cover the full cost of treatment. Makes sense to me that the federal government would step in with some aid here to make sure that a vulnerable population gets treated, but what do I know. The article also goes into some detail explaining how and why Covid-19 deaths are reported the way they are. The explanation does not require an elaborate conspiracy theory. Worth a read. 

[FLEA]

14 minutes ago, DosXX said:

Idk if you just didn't read or are being intentionally obtuse. I specifically stated their national contact tracing program as the most important policy they did and how we could replicate it here.

I did miss that sentence and ill acknowledge that. I agree that contact tracing is a great idea on paper. I discount sK and JP mask wear because it was cultural habbits prior to the pandemic. I would actually attribute the biggest motivator to sK/JP success to be the fact that the average citizen in those countries is far more socially responsible than the average American. I was in Korea when the Daegu church breakout occured. Members of that church and their families were publicy shamed for weeks. There was a huge loss of face by those that participated and other churches that were still open shuddered immediately after. We don't have that cultural component in the US, hence your voluntary contact tracing I feel would have limited participation. 

There are other cultural aspects as well. Japanese and Koreans are generally cleaner than Americans and possess better hygiene. 

The point I'm trying to make to all this is there is more than being "industrialized economies."  

We don't buy stealth fighters because other countries procure stealth fighters. We assess a requirement and an individual need for it. Likewise, a state is going to respond to a crises based on it's individual circumstances. I'm not a supporter of the President. But I have worked high enough to know that data usually isn't accurate when it reaches the executive level, and there is no playbook for a pandemic response. Especially when that pandemic puts you at odds with your authoritarian Asian rival who is carefully watching your responses to make critiques on free democracies. 

That said, of all the policies you listed, I don't really think they were large contributors to the outbreak. We had a leveling curve until the Goeorge Floyd riots began. The single biggest mistake I put on the President is not recognizing the civil unrest and synergizing the strategy for the pandemic response to the civil unrest response at all. The country was looking for a voice of unification at that point and he completely missed the boat on it. 

Edited August 28, 2020 by FLEA

[jrizzell]

Tolerance personified as an elderly couple exited a political event 👍

 

[DosXX]

40 minutes ago, FLEA said:

And there is no playbook for a pandemic response. 

 

Agree with your overall points here, I'm just nitpicking in good spirit for the meme here cause McConnell said this in the Senate and it was pointed out that the previous administration did in fact leave a 69 page (nice) playbook after Ebola for future administrations titled "Playbook for Early Response to High-Consequence Emerging Infectious Disease Threats and Biological Incidents" but known colloquially as “the pandemic playbook” that came from the team that was disbanded that I mentioned. 

Agree in general on the importance of cultural differences in their pandemic response success. Main reason I started with low hanging fruit was because I believed culture was one of the main driving factors driving their success and those actions from POTUS could lead us towards that culture instead of away from it. 

Edited August 28, 2020 by DosXX

[sixblades]

The CDC has said our infection numbers are likely 10 times higher than reported (due to tens of millions having it, but not going to the hospital/getting tested)...And since this doesn’t support your opinion, you’ll likely come at me screaming “source!”
 

I thinks that’s a valid theory given so many unknowns about how symptoms manifest and the true transmissibility of the virus. That would definitely push down the mortality rate in the US (and potentially abroad), and I’m all for it, but that doesn’t change the fact that we’ve poorly combatted the realities of this pandemic. Our confirmed infected and confirmed death numbers would still be disproportionately high relative to the rest of the world, and that’s what the concern is about

A source would be nice... jk!

[Negatory]

The protesting has lost its purpose. If you want people to care, maybe don’t attack politicians. There’s no apparent strategy other than to be mad and break stuff.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8672681/BLM-protesters-gather-outside-White-House-Trumps-RNC-speech.html

[jrizzell]

The protesting has lost its purpose. If you want people to care, maybe don’t attack politicians. There’s no apparent strategy other than to be mad and break stuff.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8672681/BLM-protesters-gather-outside-White-House-Trumps-RNC-speech.html

You’re missing the point, the chaos is the end game. The “protestors” want to see an end to the American Capitalist system, they view it as racist and unjust. It appears that direct force and coercion, are the newest tactics. Forcing individuals to “raise their hand in support of your movement” is a literal personification of the Maoist struggle session.

[Prozac]

3 hours ago, brickhistory said:

My regrets that the 17 yr old in Kenosha will have to deal with the aftermath, but from a getting it done aspect, he took out three skinnies, two permanently, while retreating/getting beaten.  All three "peaceful protesters" have violent felony records.

And at least one of them was armed.

Both sides are playing that game now.

Not a game anymore.

 

 

Here’s a photo. It’s disturbing and I debated posting it here but I think it’s relevant and appropriate in response to your post:

The photo appears to show a couple of Kyle Rittenhouse’s victims. In the foreground, clutching his chest, is Anthony Huber who was “armed” with a skateboard and apparently attempting to disarm Rittenhouse. He collapsed in that spot and died shortly after this photo was taken. Standing in front of Rittenhouse is Gaige Grosskreutz. It’s hard to see in this picture but he was apparently armed. Still, in the photo he is in a clearly unthreatening stance with his hands in the air, perhaps attempting to talk Rittenhouse down. He was shot in the arm. The events surrounding Rittenhouse’s first shooting event, which resulted in the death of Joseph Rosenbaum are less clear but reports are that someone other than Rosenbaum fired a gun into the air, after which Rosenbaum lunged at Rittenhouse and was shot in the head. I have not seen evidence indicating that Rosenbaum himself was armed. 
 

Kyle Rittenhouse took a firearm that he apparently wasn’t authorized to own across state lines to a city in which he didn’t reside ostensibly to defend local businesses. He was young, immature, untrained in crowd control or use of force, and probably scared. He had no business injecting himself into that situation and the results were predictably tragic. 
 

Brickhistory, I find your post to be in poor taste and antithetical to American values.  I don’t know you.  The fact that you’re active on this board means that in all likelihood you are in fact a veteran who loves his country.  I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’re a decent human being who will take my comments as considered criticism and not a personal attack.  That’s not what this is.  But to equate American citizens protesting in the streets to “skinnies” is abhorrent.  We are talking about Kenosha Wisconsin, USA, not Mogadishu. EVEN if some of these protesters were participating in illegal activities, they are US citizens entitled to due process, not foreign enemies to be shot down in the streets. Celebrating and lionizing the actions of a misguided, scared, seventeen year old vigilante is beyond the pale. I never thought I’d see the day when a fellow veteran would refer to fellow citizens in the streets as skinnies and celebrate their murders. Pleas reconsider your statements.

[Clark Griswold]

https://www.denverpost.com/2020/05/20/coronavirus-covid-medicare-payments-hospitals/
Not true. Here is an article from the Denver Post that explains why government reimbursement to hospitals is higher for treatment of Covid-19 patients, but that there is no extra money associated with reporting deaths. This higher reimbursement is limited to patients age 65 or older and dependent on Medicare, which typically does not cover the full cost of treatment. Makes sense to me that the federal government would step in with some aid here to make sure that a vulnerable population gets treated, but what do I know. The article also goes into some detail explaining how and why Covid-19 deaths are reported the way they are. The explanation does not require an elaborate conspiracy theory. Worth a read. 

Disagree that it is Not True but it is True*

*Asterisk item for this article that lists the known policies and reasonably suspected shenanigans involved with admin shoe clerks using sometimes consulted reimbursement rules/new policies to the advantage of their institution

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/3000638001


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[brickhistory]

1 hour ago, Prozac said:

Here’s a photo. It’s disturbing and I debated posting it here but I think it’s relevant and appropriate in response to your post:

The photo appears to show a couple of Kyle Rittenhouse’s victims. In the foreground, clutching his chest, is Anthony Huber who was “armed” with a skateboard and apparently attempting to disarm Rittenhouse. He collapsed in that spot and died shortly after this photo was taken. Standing in front of Rittenhouse is Gaige Grosskreutz. It’s hard to see in this picture but he was apparently armed. Still, in the photo he is in a clearly unthreatening stance with his hands in the air, perhaps attempting to talk Rittenhouse down. He was shot in the arm. The events surrounding Rittenhouse’s first shooting event, which resulted in the death of Joseph Rosenbaum are less clear but reports are that someone other than Rosenbaum fired a gun into the air, after which Rosenbaum lunged at Rittenhouse and was shot in the head. I have not seen evidence indicating that Rosenbaum himself was armed. 
 

Kyle Rittenhouse took a firearm that he apparently wasn’t authorized to own across state lines to a city in which he didn’t reside ostensibly to defend local businesses. He was young, immature, untrained in crowd control or use of force, and probably scared. He had no business injecting himself into that situation and the results were predictably tragic. 
 

Brickhistory, I find your post to be in poor taste and antithetical to American values.  I don’t know you.  The fact that you’re active on this board means that in all likelihood you are in fact a veteran who loves his country.  I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’re a decent human being who will take my comments as considered criticism and not a personal attack.  That’s not what this is.  But to equate American citizens protesting in the streets to “skinnies” is abhorrent.  We are talking about Kenosha Wisconsin, USA, not Mogadishu. EVEN if some of these protesters were participating in illegal activities, they are US citizens entitled to due process, not foreign enemies to be shot down in the streets. Celebrating and lionizing the actions of a misguided, scared, seventeen year old vigilante is beyond the pale. I never thought I’d see the day when a fellow veteran would refer to fellow citizens in the streets as skinnies and celebrate their murders. Pleas reconsider your statements.

The kid shouldn't have been there.  Neither should the rioters.  Neither is in the right.  However, the kid didn't start the fight or riots.  

The kid will undoubtedly face firearms charges, as well as the murder charges he currently has.  The numerous videos available show him being chased, repeatedly.  They show him being attacked after he tripped.  Skateboarder guy was wailing away on him with the board and trying to take the weapon.  That, too, is on video.  The video prior to him tripping records shot(s) that aren't from the kid's rifle.  The "hand's up" guy with the pistol then pointed it at the kid and tried to take the weapon. He is also on video at the hospital acknowledging that he "wished I'd emptied the whole magazine into him."

 Self-defense will most likely beat the murder charges, but the underage firearm thing and across state lines (if true) are gonna be a problem for him.  I don't know him.  But no 17 year old should have to deal with taking other lives, fearing for his own, and being stupid.

The rioters knew better.  But they largely haven't been held to account.  I believe the masses are about tired of that.

My comment, as dark as it was, related to the kid's ability to take out threats to him.  I don't feel regret for that notice nor the term I'm using for the antifa rioters/anarchists.  They aren't seeking "social justice" or a better America.  They are seeking the end of America.  I have no respect for that view nor those that hold it.  Therefore, derision is one way I deal with it.

I also noted that both sides are armed and it's not a game any more.

But it's human nature to say "enough's enough."  Two-way violence is only going to increase.

I don't rejoice in that, but I certainly understand it.  How many months have the good guys had to endure the destruction of cities and towns?  Eventually, the good guys fight back.  

Edited August 28, 2020 by brickhistory