The WOKE Thread (Merged from WTF?)

[Buddy Spike]

10 minutes ago, pawnman said:

I'm implying it happens more often than it should, and there's no accountability.  There's a standard set of maneuvers:

1. Suspect was dangerous even though they were armed

2. Suspect had a bunch of prior problems with the law (even though this is completely irrelevant to the event being discussed).

3. Cops are heroes who risk their lives, cop safety should come first (if that's the case...don't take a job where your safety is in danger, maybe?)

4. Police union protests any politician that tries to hold said cop accountable.

There's a plethora of cases to choose from.  Go ahead, defend the shooting of Tamir Rice.  Or the beating of Kelley Thomas.  Or Freddie Gray - killing a suspect IN CUSTODY?  Come on.

Your definition of accountability seems to be punishing people even when the use of force is justified and they're cleared of wrongdoing.

Tamir Rice was a horrible situation. Someone called 911 reporting a person with a gun waving it around in the park. They did say it's "probably fake" but it would be unreasonable for law enforcement to assume that (and if it's probably fake, why call 911?).  The officers made some serious tactical errors in their approach (pulling up right in front with no cover at all). When Rice reached into his waistband to pull out the gun, they shot him.  How were they supposed to know it was a toy?  The city of Cleveland settled a $6M lawsuit and the officer was fired.  A grand jury declined to indict them.  What else do you want?  Take the emotion out of it. Do you want them to go to jail "just because"?

The Kelly Thomas case went to trial and they were found not guilty.  Not by a "thin blue line" but a jury of their peers.  Take that up with the courts.

Finally, Freddie Gray. He was arrested after fleeing on foot in an area of known criminal activity for a switchblade knife that was illegal in Baltimore. While in custody, he broke his neck in the van and hit his head.

Six officers were suspended. All were acquitted or charges dropped. The Obama DOJ (under Lynch) investigated and eventually declined to pursue it.  Again, what would you like?  Execute them in the streets to assuage your FEELINGS?

No one is saying these deaths were justified or right, but to say there was no accountability is wrong. Each example you cited involved criminal charges and trials for the officers.

[Clark Griswold]

Another great lament by VDH:

America Descending into Collective Madness | National Review

From the article:  The common denominator with all these absurdities? An ungracious and neurotic elite whose judgment is bankrupt and whose privilege is paid for by those who don’t have it.

[Buddy Spike]

And speaking of "same level of accountability" when's the last time a pilot or crew faced criminal charges (in the US) for a Class A mishap that was pilot error?

[pawnman]

5 minutes ago, Buddy Spike said:

Your definition of accountability seems to be punishing people even when the use of force is justified and they're cleared of wrongdoing.

Tamir Rice was a horrible situation. Someone called 911 reporting a person with a gun waving it around in the park. They did say it's "probably fake" but it would be unreasonable for law enforcement to assume that (and if it's probably fake, why call 911?).  The officers made some serious tactical errors in their approach (pulling up right in front with no cover at all). When Rice reached into his waistband to pull out the gun, they shot him.  How were they supposed to know it was a toy?  The city of Cleveland settled a $6M lawsuit and the officer was fired.  A grand jury declined to indict them.  What else do you want?  Take the emotion out of it. Do you want them to go to jail "just because"?

The Kelly Thomas case went to trial and they were found not guilty.  Not by a "thin blue line" but a jury of their peers.  Take that up with the courts.

Finally, Freddie Gray. He was arrested after fleeing on foot in an area of known criminal activity for a switchblade knife that was illegal in Baltimore. While in custody, he broke his neck in the van and hit his head.

Six officers were suspended. All were acquitted or charges dropped. The Obama DOJ (under Lynch) investigated and eventually declined to pursue it.  Again, what would you like?  Execute them in the streets to assuage your FEELINGS?

No one is saying these deaths were justified or right, but to say there was no accountability is wrong. Each example you cited involved criminal charges and trials for the officers.

Do you think people in any of these cases would have been acquitted if they were not police officers?  Would a random 2A advocate have been found not guilty for shooting Tamir Rice under similar circumstances?  Would a random passerby have been found not guilty after beating a homeless man to death?

This is EXACTLY the lack of accountability I'm talking about.  Judges and prosecutors don't put much effort into prosecuting cops so they don't offend the police unions for their next re-election.

That guy that was fired from the Cleveland?  He's a cop in a neighboring district.  Real accountability there.  The only ones held accountable were the taxpayers of the city, who had to shell out $6 million for a cop who couldn't be bothered to shout some instructions before pulling the trigger.

[pawnman]

2 minutes ago, Buddy Spike said:

And speaking of "same level of accountability" when's the last time a pilot or crew faced criminal charges (in the US) for a Class A mishap that was pilot error?

Couldn't tell you...but I can tell you there are a high number of cases where they are no longer pilots.  Most cops just move to a new district.

[Buddy Spike]

Just now, pawnman said:

Do you think people in any of these cases would have been acquitted if they were not police officers?  Would a random 2A advocate have been found not guilty for shooting Tamir Rice under similar circumstances?  Would a random passerby have been found not guilty after beating a homeless man to death?

This is EXACTLY the lack of accountability I'm talking about.  Judges and prosecutors don't put much effort into prosecuting cops so they don't offend the police unions for their next re-election.

That guy that was fired from the Cleveland?  He's a cop in a neighboring district.  Real accountability there.  The only ones held accountable were the taxpayers of the city, who had to shell out $6 million for a cop who couldn't be bothered to shout some instructions before pulling the trigger.

 

That's a lot of speculative nonsense. A "random 2A advocate" wouldn't be in that situation, but I will refer you to the shooting of Trayvon Martin.  

You don't think Mosby put much effort into Freddie Gray? She was building her entire platform on making examples out of them.

He told the kid to put his hands up and the kid reached into his waistband in response.  Would you rather him wait to find out it's a real gun and get shot?

 

[jrizzell]

4 minutes ago, Buddy Spike said:

And speaking of "same level of accountability" when's the last time a pilot or crew faced criminal charges (in the US) for a Class A mishap that was pilot error?

There was a C-17 pilot that was tried for an Off-DZ drop in McChord years ago. Ultimately found not-guilty https://www.airforcemag.com/c-17pilotfoundnotguiltyinairdropdeath/

[Buddy Spike]

Just now, jrizzell said:

There was a C-17 pilot that was tried for an Off-DZ drop in McChord years ago. Ultimately found not-guilty https://www.airforcemag.com/c-17pilotfoundnotguiltyinairdropdeath/

According to Pawnman, that's not good enough.  He should've gone straight to jail.

[pawnman]

5 minutes ago, Buddy Spike said:

According to Pawnman, that's not good enough.  He should've gone straight to jail.

Well, clearly this won't be productive anymore.

Hope you never find yourself on the wrong side of a baton.

[ClearedHot]

51 minutes ago, Buddy Spike said:

And speaking of "same level of accountability" when's the last time a pilot or crew faced criminal charges (in the US) for a Class A mishap that was pilot error?

69 years ago while I was waiting to start UPT I was assign to OG/CC to help with an investigation and Court Martial (I was the admin bitch boy).  In short, at another base one of the IFF T-38 IPs cancelled IFR on the way back to the base from a cross country and did an unauthorized low-level.  While doing so he clipped a power line and sheared the travel pod off the bottom of the jet (he got lucky and didn't crash).  There was obviously damage to the jet and damage to the power line, but thankfully no damage to anyone or anything else on the ground.  The powers that be sent him to a court martial and the OG was the only rated dude on the board!  The others wanted to send the IP to jail for an extended period of time for destruction of government property.  Luckily the OG prevailed.

[ClearedHot]

Five minutes after I posted above this pops up in my news.

French military jets cut off village's power supply by flying low

[Homestar]

3 hours ago, pawnman said:

Hope you never find yourself on the wrong side of a baton.

Assuming he's white, he likely won't.

In every one of these cases de-escalation techniques might have prevented the need for force altogether, which I think we all agree is the desired goal.

[HeloDude]

24 minutes ago, Homestar said:

Assuming he's white, he likely won't.

Since you seem to be smart on the subject, what percentage of non-white Americans find themselves on “the wrong side of a baton”?  

[FLEA]

2 hours ago, Homestar said:

Assuming he's white, he likely won't.

In every one of these cases de-escalation techniques might have prevented the need for force altogether, which I think we all agree is the desired goal.

Curious what sort of de-escalation techniques you're speaking of. Since your an expert can you discuss them a bit?

[Boomer6]

On 2/19/2021 at 12:24 AM, pawnman said:

You really think there's the same level of accountability?  That the whole "thin blue line" thing is just a liberal conspiracy theory to make police look bad?  That the incredibly low conviction rate of officers caught ON CAMERA using force on unarmed people is because all cops are doing a really great job?

And you think I'VE swallowed the propaganda. 

Who isn’t holding them accountable, their fellow police officers or the jury that acquitted them? Or are you implying the jury is made up of only cops? Or is there a conspiracy between the cops and the judge?

Edited March 3, 2021 by Boomer6
sp*

[pawnman]

30 minutes ago, Boomer6 said:

Who isn’t holding them accountable, their fellow police officers or the jury that acquitted them? Or are you implying the jury is made up of only cops? Or is their a conspiracy between the cops and the judge?

It's not even a conspiracy.  It's that judges and prosecutors are often elected positions, and the police union reminds them that union support will be key to re-election.

One thing that might improve this is if we moved to a circuit court model whenever a police officer is tried for a crime.  Remove the local prosecutors and judges that work hand-in-hand with the police in that area on a daily basis from the equation.

[Guardian]

Is that an assumption that every system that could try them is corrupt?

[pawnman]

22 minutes ago, Guardian said:

Is that an assumption that every system that could try them is corrupt?

Not at all.  That's why I think it should be a circuit deal. Remove the people with a stake in the outcome from the proceedings, bring in truly neutral parties for these cases.

[Grabby]

44 minutes ago, pawnman said:

It's not even a conspiracy.  It's that judges and prosecutors are often elected positions, and the police union reminds them that union support will be key to re-election.

One thing that might improve this is if we moved to a circuit court model whenever a police officer is tried for a crime.  Remove the local prosecutors and judges that work hand-in-hand with the police in that area on a daily basis from the equation.

Everything you are posting regarding cops is anecdotal.  Do you realize that?

 

[Homestar]

3 hours ago, HeloDude said:

Since you seem to be smart on the subject, what percentage of non-white Americans find themselves on “the wrong side of a baton”?  

Oh, I'm sorry....I was under the impression that this was the internet and not a masters class on race relations.

[Homestar]

2 hours ago, FLEA said:

Curious what sort of de-escalation techniques you're speaking of. Since your an expert can you discuss them a bit?

I'm not an expert in police de-escalation techniques because I don't work in the industry. What are your qualifications for discussing the topic?

[pawnman]

28 minutes ago, Grabby said:

Everything you are posting regarding cops is anecdotal.  Do you realize that?

 

Consistent with the reporting. 

Do you think policing is going well?  No room for improvement? 

[Lawman]

Consistent with the reporting. 
Do you think policing is going well?  No room for improvement? 

Do you think there is currently an epidemic or Racist extremism or to borrow from 10 years ago predatory sexual conduct that is a systemic part of the military? Do you think they are either consciously or subconsciously baked into our population. Now of course both those ideas are pretty absurd (and currently being peddled to the mob), but those of us that have experience in the military know better. What we see is a narrative on those topics created through cherry picking of details and a steady diet of shock and outrage media pumped into a society full of echo chamber social media circles.

Similarly the idea that police face no action for misconduct and that police unions are somehow more powerful than city legislatures and mayors is being peddled. Sorry dude, I watched cops get fired for misconduct. I know guys who never made it past the state certificate from the academy because no department would hire them (one in particular was the son of a Lt in that department).

Is there room for improvement? Sure as with any field where the median salary is in the sub 50k range, same as it is for teachers or nurses or any other field. But anybody who has spent a week in the military should know damn well empty promises to study the problem and “mandatory training” will lead to nothing but hours expended on PowerPoint briefings so leadership can tell it’s constituency “we did something.” Unless you and a whole lot of others are prepared for a full reinvestment of serious capital and time vetting, equipping, and training a Law Enforcement enterprise demands for change are nothing more than shouting to feel better about a tree in a forest of greater societal issues.


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[HeloDude]

58 minutes ago, Homestar said:

Oh, I'm sorry....I was under the impression that this was the internet and not a masters class on race relations.

So you’re able to comment on the likelihood of one race being on “the wrong side of a baton”, but not others?  Why is that?

[Homestar]

39 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

So you’re able to comment on the likelihood of one race being on “the wrong side of a baton”, but not others?  Why is that?

huh?

 

Edit: Ok, I think I understand what you're asking now.....

I pretty much just Googled "Police violence by race" and read the first 4 hits/studies that popped up.

I guess I'd like to know why you think I was wrong in stating that if the previous poster was white he was not likely to be the victim of police violence?  Admittedly it was a "pop off" remark on my part.  I didn't mean for it to be inflammatory.

Edited February 19, 2021 by Homestar