The WOKE Thread (Merged from WTF?)

[di1630]

I once got aggressively lectured on privilege by a successful black guy. Turns out he actually came from a much more “privileged” background than I when we got down to it.

 

Lots of assumptions made on all sides.

 

We all have privilege...American privilege. Living in the richest, freest, least discriminatory society in world history.

 

I’m tired of f-cking hearing otherwise.

 

Ungrateful woke SJW progressives can eat a nut

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

 

[Guardian]

So do you see the double standard? People of color are claiming racism and large systems of racism and people groups that need to be taken down. But when someone is offended by people of color branding those with a particular skin color as privileged? Isn’t the whole point not to associate an entire people group with negative attributes and just focus on individuals based on the merit of their actions and character?

So if someone is offended by someone of color telling them they have white privilege, that’s ok? It’s fine if a person of color judges someone with a particular skin tone with a privilege with zero explanation of what that means?

So if someone is offended that just means they aren’t sensitive enough to others? Well then if that’s the logic you also have to focus that inward. It can’t be a double standard in this day and age.

I hear it said well you must have grown up with both of your parents and they were probably good loving parents, in a good community, in a good school and had all these opportunities. So you are attributing an ideal to an entire group of people and assuming. But what if there is one white family that is broken and doesn’t live in a nice neighborhood and doesn’t have the nice opportunities? That blows up the whole argument of white privilege.

My point is people can just take stock and rise above. Victim culture is sick. And so is racism. So show us the actual racism and actual examples of racist systems and let’s solve them together. Using words and phrases attributing to an entire people group is wrong. And when someone says that another group based off a physical attribute is wrong and has a privilege then maybe they have an unconscious bias towards the people they claim they are being oppressed by.

[Guardian]

I have never in my life heard of JLP. I do, however listen to Coleman Hughes, Thomas Sowell, and Larry Elder. Coleman has the most nuanced, and thoughtful take here. If you have time, it’s worth a listen.

 

Absolutely worth the listen! Thanks and I’ll look up those other two as well. If you have specific videos I would watch them.

 

Wow. Great dude. Awesome awesome awesome answers to a white girls questions who you could tell wasn’t happy with the toned down answers with facts and logic as his guide. Not emotion.

 

He needs his voice heard. Let me aid in capturing his comments for those of you that don’t have time for a 46 min video. And I agree FLEA he is very well spoken with facts, data, and hardly any emotion which leads this to be a very good Q&A.not really a discussion as the lady has some very slanted questions.

 

Not sure who the lady interviewer is. But her questions seem to be charged and try to lead him down the path of racism and hate. Maybe she is doing it on purpose or not, but it’s a very inflammatory way of speaking. At one point she gets upset that he states you can’t eradicate racism and he even goes so far as to say as some point it would be so low that it wouldn’t even be worth the effort.

 

Near quotes:

 

Actual number of racists and facists is very very small

 

If a white family moves into or out of a neighbor hood, it’s racist. (Can’t win either way)

 

It’s not the kind of racism that the civil rights movement was about fighting. Frankly it diminishes the power of the word racism which is a very powerful word.

 

All of that stuff has been on the wain and it’s really hard to find racist stereotypes in 2020.

 

Black people are 14% of America but commit 52% of homicides

 

If you visited anywhere else you would find the US is one of the least racists places on earth.

 

You’re likelihood of getting shot and killed by the cops is on par to the likelihood of getting struck by lightning.

 

Cops are more likely to use non lethal force if you are black vs if you are white.

 

It’s actually not true that the cops are likely to pull the trigger if you are a black suspect.

 

In 2019 41 unarmed people were killled by the cops. 9 of those were black. 19 of them were white.

 

He talks about the data that goes into that statement then says when you control for all of these there is no disparity at all for being shot by the cops (in black people and white people statistics)

 

The BLM movement is based on half truths. Yes they mistreat blacks disproportionately but no they are not more likely to shoot and kill black suspects.

 

He speaks for a while very highly of BLM. Which I am ignorant of and for the most part I lump them in with Antifa and the KKK because of their radicalism and results of their words and actions. So maybe I should learn more about them. The name is super off putting though. And very much an instigator. however he does speak well of some of their motives. He then goes on to say, their biggest fundamental belief is wrong. It’s not the case that it’s open season on black men being shot by the cops. He then goes to talk about Floyd video Vs a video of a white man in 2016 being video’ed and dying in nearly the same way Floyd died. Apparently the cops were joking about it while the man died right before them and the casualness of it. He goes into how this crime on a white guy doesn’t get publicized in most cases. I was hoping he would talk about how of the 4 officers in the floyd case, 2 of them are minorities and one of them is black.

 

All the BLM people are victims of the (media) coverage bias. Because they have never seen these videos (other skin colors being victims of police brutality) so when it happens to a black person the media has uniquely trained us to make us feel like we are being uniquely hunted. I can’t help to feel that the black lives matters movement is full of people who have been duped in a very fundamental way.

 

He speaks in a very through and thought provoking way against riots and why they don’t work in the sort or long term.

 

The first rule of activism is to educate yourself and make sure you are not misled.

 

Worth the watch!

[BashiChuni]

24 minutes ago, di1630 said:

 

 

We all have privilege...American privilege. Living in the richest, freest, least discriminatory society in world history.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

 

So true. Those of us who have seen the shit holes around the world understand. 

[Guardian]

FLEA those are very good points and FWIW we are very close on many concepts you spoke about - namely getting to the root cause of why certain societal groups don’t see positive results while others do.

 

One thing I realized reading that is that at some point, my personal definition of privilege changed from having something I “shouldn’t” have to having something someone else “doesn’t” have. That made it seem less like a personal attack on me and instead made me more interested in learning about the other persons experience.

 

Semantics maybe, but like you said words do matter.

 

100% agree with addressing poverty and income inequality - by finding good policies and incentives so we can grow the pie, rather than simply redistribution of existing slices.

 

So if someone tells you you have white privilege (assuming you are white) it isn’t about you, it’s about them and what they have been through? Please correct my understanding of your statement. As it stands, I don’t understand your point.

 

Could you explain what you mean by income inequality?

 

Also you do realize that our entire country has been getting richer right? It’s not only the people on top are getting rich and the people on top are getting poorer. In general the average income is going up as the top earners are making more? So I think the pie is growing if that’s what you mean?

[Guardian]

Sure, I can give examples of both from a full video from JLPs channel as source so you can get the full context. At around 10:07 he strawmans Ben's argument by suggesting Ben believes people are "so dumbed down and lazy" because he supports certain policies. Around 20:00 JLP asks a loaded question and then interrupts with BETA when Ben tries to defend his position. This is not a defense of Ben's positions at all, just pointing out examples as requested. 
 
 
 

I don’t see your example or context. I watched the video but it doesn’t support your argument.

Unlike the other video recommended for the group by someone else,I don’t recommend anyone watch this video. JLP is talking to a guy who can’t have a rational discussion without getting pissed off. Can’t even answer questions in a calm cool collected voice and then JLP resorts to name calling after he can’t take his unruly disruptive with poor logic socialist guest to calm down and answer questions.

It’s not really a good video for anything. 20+ min of listening to a SJW I’ll never get back.

[FLEA]

4 hours ago, Guardian said:

 

So if someone tells you you have white privilege (assuming you are white) it isn’t about you, it’s about them and what they have been through? Please correct my understanding of your statement. As it stands, I don’t understand your point. -Correct. Its a terrible term. It doesn't at all convey what its intended. What its really getting at though is people caught in a poverty cycle that results in them entering the CJ system. Once in the system they are stuck and unfortunately the 2nd and 3rd order effects of that will probably effect their offspring as well, leading them to go down the same road. 

 

Could you explain what you mean by income inequality? The average black family's net worth is only 1/10th that of the average white family. Blacks disproportionately make up low wage service jobs and entry level jobs. There are a multitude of reasons for this. One is that poorer family's have less access to good education. Another is that the same communities enter the CJ system more often. Once you have a record its nearly impossible to get a higher paying job. Another huge factor people don't talk about often is that many black families are only six generations removed from slavery. Slaves couldn't accumulate wealth. So there is no familial wealth passed down. This leads parents being able to provide less for their children. Access to college education is a good example. 

 

Also you do realize that our entire country has been getting richer right? It’s not only the people on top are getting rich and the people on top are getting poorer. In general the average income is going up as the top earners are making more? So I think the pie is growing if that’s what you mean? The problem is wealth isn't growing evenly. As of 2019 the top 1% own 35% of all the accumulated wealth in the United States. This is up from 25% in 1979. We are getting richer but its disproportionately filtering to the top. Not just the top 1% but the top as a whole. So if you are in the bottom 25% you aren't really noticing anything unless minimum wage is hiked. Even then, inflation usually straightens that out in a year or two. 

 

Edited June 7, 2020 by FLEA

[Lord Ratner]

10 hours ago, DosXX said:

Sure, I can give examples of both from a full video from JLPs channel as source so you can get the full context. At around 10:07 he strawmans Ben's argument by suggesting Ben believes people are "so dumbed down and lazy" because he supports certain policies. Around 20:00 JLP asks a loaded question and then interrupts with BETA when Ben tries to defend his position. This is not a defense of Ben's positions at all, just pointing out examples as requested. 

Jesus dude, I would hope if someone treated you like that you'd have some choice words for them too.

 

It was, however, an excellent example of your analytical perspective. As you indicated, we have no basis for discussion.

[SocialD]

Can this wokefest get its own thread? 

[Lord Ratner]

Here's a thread where pilots can solve complex societal issues without contaminating other threads. Consider this a safe space for no one and a trigger warning for all.

Mods, feel free to move the cross posting from the WTF thread to here. Or don't, I'm not your mother.

[Guardian]

 

Flea, I don’t think we will ever agree. Thanks for the discourse. Your ideas are very liberal. And whether you intend it or not, make people more victims and actually keep them down instead of build them up.

 

For this argument let’s say your numbers are right. But I feel like you are blaming society on them. It’s not white people’s fault that any family earns less, has access to less education, less paying jobs or makes less overall. You see that’s the beautiful thing about America. If you don’t like where you live, you can move. If you don’t like the education, you can go elsewhere. Don’t like what you make you can work hard and do something else that makes more, don’t like your paycheck you can work hard and get a different paying job. So if there is one white family that chooses not to move, get better education, etc.....your argument is blown up. And let me tell you. It’s blown up.

 

Income inequality is a good thing. You reward the hard workers, and better earners and specialized people who are good at their vocation. Hence my point way early on. If sick and need of surgery, I want the best doctor available working on me. The one who chose to excel, work hard, is amazing at their craft and subsequently gets rewarded for it. Redistribution of wealth, “fixing” income inequality, making education availability more liberal (continuing or expanding on the racist program of affirmative action) than today will almost ensure that doctor doesn’t exist.

 

You don’t build up any person by forcing them to be built up. He/she has to have a will and desire to succeed. To over come. To be better. To accomplish.

 

You and I likely will never agree. Thanks for the talk. If the mods just want to delete or move this entire discussion for the last week or so, feel free. I’ve had my questions answered.

[lloyd christmas]

This will never end if our starting point is not the truth.  

[NKAWTG]

1 hour ago, lloyd christmas said:

This will never end if our starting point is not the truth.  

Truth is so different for people.  I turn on one network to watch coverage of the George Floyd riots, and the next channel down has coverage of the George Floyd protests.  And they are covering the same thing.  Everyone seems to be in violent agreement that the dude was murdered by the cop, and should be prosecuted.  They arrested the cop and charged him.  Now what?  Restore law and order?  Remove the police and let communities fend for themselves?   I can't seem figure out what the point is now.

 

[DosXX]

Worthwhile read from woke conservative David French

https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/p/american-racism-weve-got-so-very

[FLEA]

26 minutes ago, DosXX said:

Worthwhile read from woke conservative David French

https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/p/american-racism-weve-got-so-very

Good read. This is very close to where my views start to lie. I don't see any reason anymore you can't be conservative but still be on the side that we need to continue to work on racism. In his bulleted points in the middle I've often found myself contemplating on #4. Specifically, that although we are a desegegrgated society in law, we didn't uproot and move 20.9 million black Americans into suburban middle class neighborhoods overnight. There are still geographic and economic segregations in our society that will take a few generations to fix. 

I also like the commentator who pointed out the roll of Europe in promoting the slave trade. I personally believe we give far too much a pass on Great Britain's role in the institution of slavery and it's establishment in the US. 

[drewpey]

2 hours ago, DosXX said:

Worthwhile read from woke conservative David French

https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/p/american-racism-weve-got-so-very

A very interesting perspective I wasn't expecting to read today.  Thank you.

[Clark Griswold]

Essay from D’Souza on where all of this self-destructive, self-hate and angry ingratitude comes from:

Longer read but worth it

https://amgreatness.com/2020/05/30/identity-socialism/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[nsplayr]

5 hours ago, DosXX said:

Worthwhile read from woke conservative David French

https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/p/american-racism-weve-got-so-very

Excellent article, thanks for sharing.

[nsplayr]

19 hours ago, FLEA said:

I absolutely wouldn't defund the police and can't understand how most democrats find that the logical answer.

They don't. Twitter does not equal real life fortunately enough.

19 hours ago, FLEA said:

Regarding poverty, I don't think dumping money into peoples pockets is going to fix anything.

Slight quibble, but if poverty is a lack of money than giving people money would certainly help! I'm looking forward to a technocratic future where strong-yet-benevolent AI has taken over large swaths of the labor required to sustain human civilization and in turn people are supported by a UBI that frees them up for more creative and exploratory pursuits.

[nsplayr]

18 hours ago, Guardian said:

So show us the actual racism and actual examples of racist systems and let’s solve them together.

They are numerous examples in plain sight if you care to see them. Over on the new thread there's an excellent article by David French sharing very specific, racist incidents his family has dealt with since adopting a child from Ethopia.

I hate to just post a quote from some old dead guys as a means to making my point but...

“It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows.” - Epictetus

Edited June 7, 2020 by nsplayr

[nsplayr]

18 hours ago, Guardian said:

Also you do realize that our entire country has been getting richer right? It’s not only the people on top are getting rich and the people on top are getting poorer. In general the average income is going up as the top earners are making more? So I think the pie is growing if that’s what you mean?

While you are technically correct, an increase of 1.6% over almost 50 years is...not great. Neither is a 6.1% increase. As you can see from the lines, the trend is divergence of the top 10% away from everyone else. (source: https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R45090.pdf)

Further down in that chart, real wages for men in the bottom 10% in particular have fallen 13.3%, and that's a huge source of despair and rage among the poorest men of all races in our country. The jobs that have gone away and are never coming back were the ones that allowed our fathers and grandfathers to scrap by and make it with hard work and a little bit of luck; that's harder than ever today for those on the very bottom, whether you're in rural WV or urban NYC or anywhere in between.

[Unknown_Rider]

In the longer read category, I highly recommend "Goliath: The 100-Year War Between Monopoly Power and Democracy" by Matt Stoller.  It's a long book, but the guy basically went through over a century's worth of primary source material from the late 1800s onward to reassemble the story of American politics and economics.  I would argue that story has been deliberately obscured and distorted for political and capital gain before Stoller put it back together, but that's just my opinion.

[nsplayr]

Matt Stoller is very smart. Here's a recent article he wrote that I'm sure echos a lot of what he wrote in his longer book: https://mattstoller.substack.com/p/corporate-power-protests-and-the

[Guardian]

Slight quibble, but if poverty is a lack of money than giving people money would certainly help! I'm looking forward to a technocratic future where strong-yet-benevolent AI has taken over large swaths of the labor required to sustain human civilization and in turn people are supported by a UBI that frees them up for more creative and exploratory pursuits.

Like the movie Wall-E?

[Guardian]

While you are technically correct, an increase of 1.6% over almost 50 years is...not great. Neither is a 6.1% increase. As you can see from the lines, the trend is divergence of the top 10% away from everyone else. (source: https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R45090.pdf)
Further down in that chart, real wages for men in the bottom 10% in particular have fallen 13.3%, and that's a huge source of despair and rage among the poorest men of all races in our country. The jobs that have gone away and are never coming back were the ones that allowed our fathers and grandfathers to scrap by and make it with hard work and a little bit of luck; that's harder than ever today for those on the very bottom, whether you're in rural WV or urban NYC or anywhere in between.

What causes that? Is feminism a factor?