The WOKE Thread (Merged from WTF?)

[brabus]

8 hours ago, FLEA said:

They on one hand, have hands down some of the best and most elite public highschools in the country

Chicago alone has over 30 public schools that charge on average around $35k/yr tuition and 0% of the students are grade level math proficient. One charges $52k/yr! Yeah I’d say there’s some massive problems in CPS, and cadet rank isn’t one of them. Chicago is a great example of incredible failure in so many spectrums of society. But I guess that’s what happens when you clearly have so many stupid people living together in one area - they get what they vote for. 

[brabus]

7 hours ago, FLEA said:

You don't see how a quote from a 15yo girl who hid 9 months of sexual assaults out of fear it would endanger her ability to move through JROTC ranks might indicate that she was falsely fixated on the value of that rank over her own physical and mental well being? 

I think that is what happened. But here’s the thing, there are thousands (probably tens of thousands unfortunately) stories just like this every year across high school and college campuses that have zero to do with cadet rank. It’s senior vs. freshman, he’s popular and she doesn’t want to go against that for fear of being ostracized, he’ll get me ______ if I do this (transactional), varsity vs. JV, first chair band vs. no chair band, etc. Perception of someone being “over” someone else is woven into the human fabric as Ratner pointed out. Thinking you can eradicate that is as stupid and naive as people like AOC/Greta regarding all their climate change bullshit. 
 

Rank may have been the thing in this specific situation you mentioned, but it is very likely this girl would have still found herself in this situation if JROTC didn’t even exist. Her problem isn’t JROTC or ranks, it’s her upbringing and caving to social pressures (that her parents didn’t prepare her for clearly).

 

 

[uhhello]

10 hours ago, FLEA said:

You don't see how a quote from a 15yo girl who hid 9 months of sexual assaults out of fear it would endanger her ability to move through JROTC ranks might indicate that she was falsely fixated on the value of that rank over her own physical and mental well being? 

I guess my position would be 1.) Children are more often probably not psychology equipped to responsibly handle authority. Noone has articulated how a rank structure makes JROTC cadets better equipped to participate as US citizens in society. 2.) The rank structures in JROTC are not where the value in the program resides. I do believe retired AD can be excellent mentors to HS youth. But they don't need a rank structure to do that. The fundamentals of discipline, physical well-being, social charisma, etc... Can all still be there. There still are and should be strict lines of authority between cadre and cadets. But kids on their own often go very Lord of the Flies very quick, is my concern. 

I could show you thousands of instances of people in positions of power abusing children.  Should we get rid of doctors?  Coaches?  Teachers?  Police?  

[FLEA]

7 minutes ago, uhhello said:

I could show you thousands of instances of people in positions of power abusing children.  Should we get rid of doctors?  Coaches?  Teachers?  Police?  

You literally have not read a thing I said. 

[uhhello]

5 minutes ago, FLEA said:

You literally have not read a thing I said. 

Sure thing

[FLEA]

2 hours ago, brabus said:

Chicago alone has over 30 public schools that charge on average around $35k/yr tuition and 0% of the students are grade level math proficient. One charges $52k/yr! Yeah I’d say there’s some massive problems in CPS, and cadet rank isn’t one of them. Chicago is a great example of incredible failure in so many spectrums of society. But I guess that’s what happens when you clearly have so many stupid people living together in one area - they get what they vote for. 

Not sure where you are getting your stats but this CPS school here is literally US news ranked as one of the top ranked nationally as a public school. 

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/illinois/districts/chicago-public-schools/young-magnet-high-school-6551#test_scores_section

LOTS of Northwestern and UChicago students grew up in CPS. 

 

But again, unless you've lived there it's really difficult to fathom the full spectrum of problems. You can't believe everything the media says about Chicago. Just like everything on the media it's always a bit off. 

[brabus]

Well to be fully transparent I believe all public education is dog shit at this point. If you’re ranked #1, you’re simply just the best of the worst. Someone’s #1 at nav school…but they’re still a nav!

And it’s not difficult for me to personally fathom the problems, I’ve lived them first hand in a deeply progressive state that was sold as “great schools.” Turns out they’re horrendous schools from every angle you look at it. For example, the highly ranked high school in our previous district, which costs almost $19k per student, is producing less than 50% math proficient and less than 63% reading proficient. That’s an epic failure, but they’re still considered a “great” school district. Bottom line, the idea of moving to a specific area because of the “great schools” is a dead notion in our country, no such thing anymore in the public sphere…until we have a massive overhaul which will have to be nothing short of “burn it down” and build anew. Probably won’t ever happen.

[FLEA]

1 hour ago, brabus said:

Well to be fully transparent I believe all public education is dog shit at this point. If you’re ranked #1, you’re simply just the best of the worst. Someone’s #1 at nav school…but they’re still a nav!

And it’s not difficult for me to personally fathom the problems, I’ve lived them first hand in a deeply progressive state that was sold as “great schools.” Turns out they’re horrendous schools from every angle you look at it. For example, the highly ranked high school in our previous district, which costs almost $19k per student, is producing less than 50% math proficient and less than 63% reading proficient. That’s an epic failure, but they’re still considered a “great” school district. Bottom line, the idea of moving to a specific area because of the “great schools” is a dead notion in our country, no such thing anymore in the public sphere…until we have a massive overhaul which will have to be nothing short of “burn it down” and build anew. Probably won’t ever happen.

I think this gets better by improving school choice for parents. Democrats would want you to believe that simply funneling more money to public schools fixes it but its not a total solution. Money does help but short of competition the schools have little incentive to improve. Teachers unions are a disaster and have completely become astray of any interest in the students. The bad thing about Chicago is the VAST majority of people there will never be able to afford private schooling. Mean private schooling cost is $25K/student and the average wage is still $60K/year. 

The JROTC academies have the potential to be something "nice" but the DoD is poorly invested in them and CPS is poorly invested in them. There is also a culture of sending problem children to military academies and not actually painting pathways to college or trade for them. Its creating a culture/perception that you see common in Democratic circles that the military is a pathway "for people who can't make it in life." NOT a place of excellence and achievement. And while JROTC does not advertise itself as a recruiting farm for the military, the city and the public school system push that narrative while trying to get rid of their social responsibility to deal with said problem children. What I'm trying to say is..... you are not getting a crop of top actors in some of these programs. And giving them some sense of artificial authority/power is not the right place to start. The right place to start is humility and a healthy ego smashing. Understanding that power and authority don't make you a better person, "more of a winner", its a role on a team. 

Like I've said, I'm not against JROTC at large. I think the program has value, but it should be built around the lowest common denominator, which right now, is unfortunately the inner city programs that account for 50% of all JROTC students. 

I'm sure the program is great for CH's son.... but I'll be frank.... I think CH is probably a pretty stellar parent and his son is going to be alright with or without JROTC, whether it has ranks or not. 

By the way, City of Chicago is hiring a lot of JROTC instructors right now if anyone is retiring soon and wants to help fix the problem. 

[BashiChuni]

3 minutes ago, FLEA said:

I think this gets better by improving school choice for parents.

yes!

[brabus]

14 minutes ago, FLEA said:

I think this gets better by improving school choice for parents. Democrats would want you to believe that simply funneling more money to public schools fixes it but its not a total solution. Money does help but short of competition the schools have little incentive to improve. Teachers unions are a disaster and have completely become astray of any interest in the students.

100%. School choice is the best and most viable solution that currently exists. Hopefully we start to see more traction, but holy hell the progressives are putting up a massive fight. Fucking teacher unions need to be destroyed. 

[Lord Ratner]

15 hours ago, FLEA said:

Right but you don't need specifically hierarchies among children. It's a given that children are usually at the bottom of social hierarchies as they lack experience, competence and judgement. Doesn't mean you can't give them opportunities to lead. We still graduated thousands of ROTC cadets every year as officers that were never cadet wing commanders. Are they some how not qualified to be leaders because they never had the opportunity to do..... Squat and dick..... Like really I don't even know what our cadet wing commanders did. 

You can't remove them, even amongst a seemingly small subgroup. They have and always will form. Bad ones can form, but the solution is not to get rid of it entirely. Doing so just means you aren't influencing the hierarchy that forms as the replacement.

 

This is a huge reason why liberal policies fail so hard, so often. The hierarchy itself *is* the enemy, that which offends the liberal conscious (because they are not fair, and often exceedingly unfair). So why on earth would you replace a bad thing with another bad thing? 

 

Jordan Peterson talks about this often. The trick is to create a wide range of numerous hierarchies that allow for more people to find one they can excel in. 

 

This Chicago thing is about predators. They aren't caused by the hierarchy, so removing ranks won't fix it. Though it can give the appearance of "doing something," which quite often allows the real problem to persist.

Edited February 25, 2023 by Lord Ratner

[FLEA]

10 minutes ago, brabus said:

100%. School choice is the best and most viable solution that currently exists. Hopefully we start to see more traction, but holy hell the progressives are putting up a massive fight. Fucking teacher unions need to be destroyed. 

What boggles me is its only K-12. In higher ed your top 25 institutions or so are upheld by a liberal fortress of control. Still great education and I don't regret it but I think it shows how the political interest is only in power and not whats in the best interest of students. 

[brabus]

I feel similarly about college as I do K-12. It’s bullshit and exists almost entirely to push narratives and maximize profits, while dragging Americans into debt (which begets a lot of profit). The only thing nowadays that college “makes sense” for is specific career paths that require a degree, such as doctor, engineer, or lawyer. Everyone else should go get actual training/education relevant to their chosen profession instead of wasting time and money on useless degrees.

[FLEA]

1 minute ago, brabus said:

I feel similarly about college as I do K-12. It’s bullshit and exists almost entirely to push narratives and maximize profits, while dragging Americans into debt (which begets a lot of profit). The only thing nowadays that college “makes sense” for is specific career paths that require a degree, such as doctor, engineer, or lawyer. Everyone else should go get actual training/education relevant to their chosen profession instead of wasting time and money on useless degrees.

Yes but unfortunately there is a demonstrable correlation between higher ed and higher earnings, particularly among elite universities. BCG/Kirkland and Ellis/McKinsey, simply aren't hiring people who went to trade school or even state schools. 

Everyone should perform an ROI estimate before attaining any higher education. And people need educated about the degree they are actually getting. An MBA can be enormously valuable but not if you get it right after undergrad.... You need to wait until you're about 30 before it has any value. Most people don't know that though. 

[brabus]

4 hours ago, FLEA said:

Yes but unfortunately there is a demonstrable correlation between higher ed and higher earnings, particularly among elite universities. BCG/Kirkland and Ellis/McKinsey, simply aren't hiring people who went to trade school or even state schools.

Kind of, this rapidly can become an apples and oranges discussion. You want to be wolf of Wall Street, well yeah you should probably have a degree from Harvard or whatever. But I know too many guys making the same money as an O-5 pilot with zero degree and doing skilled labor/own their own business in that area of expertise. A buddy’s son is 21 making 6 figures with zero debt as a lineman. That kid is crushing life compared to all of his peers racking up debt getting their bullshit degree who will then get jobs post-college that won’t touch his earnings for many years, and on top of it they’ve got debt to pay off. There’s a significant, insatiable demand for skilled labor and will be for decades to come. Oh, and now we have major airline pilots without degrees who will absolutely crush their doctor peers in long term earnings. Lots of opportunity to make a solid living without a college degree, just depends on what you want to do for a living.

Edited February 25, 2023 by brabus

[nsplayr]

8 hours ago, brabus said:

Someone’s #1 at nav school…but they’re still a nav!

 

Edited February 26, 2023 by nsplayr

[ClearedHot]

19 hours ago, FLEA said:

I think this gets better by improving school choice for parents. Democrats would want you to believe that simply funneling more money to public schools fixes it but its not a total solution. Money does help but short of competition the schools have little incentive to improve. Teachers unions are a disaster and have completely become astray of any interest in the students. The bad thing about Chicago is the VAST majority of people there will never be able to afford private schooling. Mean private schooling cost is $25K/student and the average wage is still $60K/year.

Of course but will the unions ever allow it.  My grandparents are mostly blue collar workers from the northeast and as a child they attempted to indoctrinate me on the union way of life.  Don't get me wrong, unions can serve a very important purpose, especially as a balance to unrestrained capitalism.  That being said, modern unions have morphed into self-licking ice cream cones that don't serve the purpose of the worker. 

20 hours ago, FLEA said:

The JROTC academies have the potential to be something "nice" but the DoD is poorly invested in them and CPS is poorly invested in them. There is also a culture of sending problem children to military academies and not actually painting pathways to college or trade for them. Its creating a culture/perception that you see common in Democratic circles that the military is a pathway "for people who can't make it in life." NOT a place of excellence and achievement. And while JROTC does not advertise itself as a recruiting farm for the military, the city and the public school system push that narrative while trying to get rid of their social responsibility to deal with said problem children. What I'm trying to say is..... you are not getting a crop of top actors in some of these programs. And giving them some sense of artificial authority/power is not the right place to start. The right place to start is humility and a healthy ego smashing. Understanding that power and authority don't make you a better person, "more of a winner", its a role on a team.

The investment in JRTOC and ROTC waxes and wanes with the times.  I would bet with the current recruiting issues the investment will increase.  I understand what you are saying but completely disagree when it comes to the rank argument. As has been pointed out by others, you can remove the JRTOC rank structure and the void will be filled by some other social construct, likely without supervision.  Have their been problems, of course, but that is a natural distribution of bad people in society and I think there is value to an "official" framework, far better than the hunger games that will result in many of these under-resourced schools. 

20 hours ago, FLEA said:

Like I've said, I'm not against JROTC at large. I think the program has value, but it should be built around the lowest common denominator, which right now, is unfortunately the inner city programs that account for 50% of all JROTC students.

Let's face it, that is the focus of military recruiting and has been for a long time.  Minorities serve at a much higher rate than the current population distribution.  Again, given the current recruiting issues, that distribution will likely increase.   I understand your intent but the real issue is leadership and family structure. 

20 hours ago, FLEA said:

I'm sure the program is great for CH's son.... but I'll be frank.... I think CH is probably a pretty stellar parent and his son is going to be alright with or without JROTC, whether it has ranks or not.

Debatable...the kid is wicked smart...sadly he looks just like me but he so smart I am wondering if the Fedex guy didn't make an extra stop while I was deployed.  My kid is being recruited because of his academics and it is a bigger feeding frenzy than the process I went through when I was recruited but a large number of colleges to play football.   Honestly I've never seen anything like it.  He is only a sophomore and they are all over him.  I have his email on my phone to keep an eye on things and he gets three or four emails every single day.  He has been invited to summer dual enrollment programs at MIT and Georgetown this year.  I haven't kept track of the smaller school but as of last month he had 28 major schools after him including Cornell, Georgetown, MIT, Vanderbilt and Miami.  Enough with the dad flex, I am proud of him.

20 hours ago, FLEA said:

By the way, City of Chicago is hiring a lot of JROTC instructors right now if anyone is retiring soon and wants to help fix the problem. 

I used to love Chicago, amazing city...now like most liberal run cities it has a lunatic mayor and one of the highest murder rates in the country.  JROTC could be one of the pillars that helps kids find disciple and success but the overall underlying system has crumbled in Chicago.  Add that to the impact of the family structure and you find the root of many problems.  African America children in particular demonstrate how the lack of a family structure drastically increases the likelihood of a bad outcome.

 

[FourFans]

@FLEA

So I'll lead with this: I agree with you on the problem.  ANY hierarchy structure that allows older/stronger to prey on younger/weaker is not a responsible structure.  An argument could be made that in these JROTC units, even without rank structure...there'd still be rank structure in the form of 8th grade vs 9th vs 12th grade...etc.  That's not going away.  I'm betting JROTC definitely exaggerated the problem by providing a backed-up rank structure to work within.  Yup.  That's a problem.  It's also been a problem in the active duty.  

Your experience as an aircrew member is BY FAR not the norm in historical standards.  Having a Col as a Nav who has to listen to you as an aircraft commander is overwhelmingly weird in the history of ranks structure, even in modern militaries.  Because we're technicians who are also officers, things get sideways real quick, thereby making our experiences a poor example.  10 minutes of observing US Army up close will show that.  Read your Robert Heinlein for excellent clarification about the heart of officership. 

My real argument here is not the problem that you've admired and spelled out so well.  My issue is with your solution.  You point out a correlation (rank structure and abuse) that may, or may not, be causal.  Contributing? Definitely.  But there is so much cultural specific influence going on here that it's very difficult to breakout the root cause.  The solution is very simply though.

Why, for the love of pete, do you come out with the solution of "ban all ranks in all JROTC"?  Aside from the obvious fact that you don't like them because...well you obviously don't seem to understand them at a macro level (which is fine).

The obvious answer is shut those units down.  Permanently.  If they are a detriment, get rid of them.  It's a localized problem that requires a localized solution.  You don't kill a man for a broken leg.  You deal with the leg.  Your supported answer is akin to saying "don't ever let this man outside again".  It's foolish and mis-aimed.  There are plenty of JROTC units with NONE of these problems.  You quoted 50% OF INNER CITY UNITS.   That's a localized problem.  What's the number come to if including all units nation-wide...which is where you would apply your answer? You are calling something systemic that is, in fact, due to a local unit culture problem.

Put in other terms, if 50% of T-6's go landing gear up, should we change to T.O. for every single airplane in the air force, regardless of their gear-up landing numbers?  Or perhaps make everyone fly around with their gear down because retractable gear are stupid and I don't understand why we need them!  The analogy breaks down, but hopefully you see the point.

The obvious answer is if the units are a detriment, shut the units down.  The end.  Instead you choose a solution that should be implemented country wide without any thought to 2nd or 3rd order effects.

[Biff_T]

23 hours ago, FourFans130 said:

The end.  Instead you choose a solution that should be implemented country wide without any thought to 2nd or 3rd order effects.

This is the way of the woke.  

[pbar]

On 2/26/2023 at 10:42 AM, ClearedHot said:

The investment in JRTOC and ROTC waxes and wanes with the times.  I would bet with the current recruiting issues the investment will increase. 

<snipped>

I wish.  Currently teaching AFJROTC and we are getting cut.  The HQ is trying to close 300 units (out of 870) to bring up the rest to a decent level of funding.  Incidentally, an AF recruiter comes to visit us maybe once a year.  Army National Guard recruiter I see almost weekly and he helps us out with supplies, gear, etc.   

But hey, we got billions $ for Afghanistan (still giving them $) and Ukraine but just peanuts for our own kids.  

Edited February 27, 2023 by pbar

[Biff_T]

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/san-francisco-reparations-panel-decided-5m-per-black-person-wasnt-math-formula

We "feel" like black SF ers should get 5 million a piece.   

For a city that never had slavery, this seems like quite a bit of money to hand out.   

Where will they get enough money to pay all of the black SF ers?  

This country will be better off when we stop separating Americans based on the color of their skin.  Have we not learned anything from slavery?  

I hope SF continues to fail.  They need to realize how stupid their ideas are.  

Edit: If the SF ers really want to show how sorry they are for everything this country has done, they should all pack up and leave.  Afterall, they're all living on stolen land.  

Edited February 28, 2023 by Biff_T
Afterthought

[Biff_T]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/01/us/black-families-home-school-reaj/index.html

 

This lady didn't even marry a black dude and she's complaining about there not being enough black teachers at her son's school.   She moved to a white neighborhood and complained about there not being enough black teachers?   Is this bitch serious?  

[Tank]

Hersey's used a transgender activist to promote international women's day!

WTF?!?

[SurelySerious]

Just men taking over another aspect of society.

[Biff_T]