F-15 Down in North Sea - 15 Jun 20

[189Herk]

On 9/17/2020 at 9:51 PM, uhhello said:

Shaw F-16 report is out as well.  Lots of lessons learned.  

But will the Air Force learn them?

[SurelySerious]

No, the risk has been accepted at the top. 

[hindsight2020]

20 minutes ago, SurelySerious said:

No, the risk has been accepted at the top. 

Shack. I don't understand why people struggle so much to understand that at face value on here.

[Sprkt69]

20 hours ago, uhhello said:

Yes.  In my flying career I have been briefed on multiple sister service safety investigations reports.

Including all privileged information?

[Bigred]

5 hours ago, Sprkt69 said:

Including all privileged information?

When I still flew helos the squadron I was in made it a point to get sister services mishap reports, to include the privileged info. Sometimes the other safety offices would initially balk but we would always end up getting the full reports.

 

[Breckey]

 
Yes, I highly recommend that every AF (and sister service) pilot go read this report.  

This thing is rough to read. The board president pulled no punches.

[M2]

Investigation Found Pilot Error Caused Fatal June F-15 Crash

AIB

[Steve Davies]

Some questions for any Eagle drivers who feel able to comment:

• c.270 hours of total time, and only 60 or so in the Eagle. Is that enough for what was being asked of him?
• There's no mention of JHMCS, so I assume he was not wearing it. Why not? And had he been, does it give substantial SA cues that might have given him a chance to recover earlier?
• Hard deck of 4,000' seems very low, especially given the WX. Is that standard?
• He pulled just over 8gs to recover. Presumably, had he thought he was going to hit the sea, he would have pulled as many as he could - was the limit therefore his technique, or simply a function of what the jet could give him at 570 knots?

[Danger41]

On 11/24/2020 at 4:13 PM, Steve Davies said:

Some questions for any Eagle drivers who feel able to comment:

• c.270 hours of total time, and only 60 or so in the Eagle. Is that enough for what was being asked of him?
• There's no mention of JHMCS, so I assume he was not wearing it. Why not? And had he been, does it give substantial SA cues that might have given him a chance to recover earlier?
• Hard deck of 4,000' seems very low, especially given the WX. Is that standard?
• He pulled just over 8gs to recover. Presumably, had he thought he was going to hit the sea, he would have pulled as many as he could - was the limit therefore his technique, or simply a function of what the jet could give him at 570 knots?

Haven’t flown the Eagle for awhile but I’ll take a stab at it.

1. This mission is within his skill set because he was post MQT so he was qualified on this mission. The weather conditions were challenging, but still doable.

2. JHMCS offers good SA, but I think the channelization he experienced would not have been sufficiently overcome just by the JHMCS. Can’t say for sure.

3. Seems a bit low and the floor usually coincides with local restrictions, uncontrolled ejection altitudes, or a operations restrictions (F-15v3). I don’t know this answer but 4,000 isn’t too low but unknown how they arrived at that.

4. I was curious about this one as well. I’ve personally seen HUD video and have a friend alive today because Mac D built that jet tough as hell and held together after an 11.8 G asym pull after a GLOC where he woke up seeing a face full of desert. I know of others that have done similar. Unlike the Viper (as you alluded), the Eagle will give you all you want when you pull. My guess is that he was well trained to recognize tones and heard either double rate beeper or solid tone and froze the stick like he would’ve done in normal execution. I don’t know if he would’ve made it if he just reefed back on the stick and pulled 10+, but it would’ve been close. 

[NUKE]

@Steve Davies At RAFL we would typically fly with a 5000’ transition altitude to allow for unlimited maneuvers above and 1000’ hard deck to allow for low altitude strikers. Below 5000’ you are limited maneuvering, only able to turn 180 degrees after a merge. We combine that with IMC rules (limited pitch and bank) when transiting cloud layers. 

[Steve Davies]

Thanks, both.

 

[HuggyU2]

I recall a great Eagle HUD video taken by Nick Kehoe (later retired as a 3-star) when he got disoriented over the Atlantic and pull 12 G's to avoid hitting the water.  When you see someone literally pull for their life, it makes a point.  I remember it well.  

Edited November 27, 2020 by HuggyU2

[brabus]

Too bad every fighter doesn’t have AGCAS.

[Vandy01]

9 hours ago, brabus said:

Too bad every fighter doesn’t have AGCAS.

That would require some sort of redundant computer controlled flight control system or capability.  and also probably a terrain database of some form.  And maybe a RADALT.  The light grey doesn’t have any of those things.
 

the light grey Eagle is a mechanically controlled, hydraulically actuated flight control system with a very rudimentary analog single channel flight control computer “overlay” called a CAS.  The CAS is not required for flight, and often “falls offline” during BFM... the CAS only allows for a little extra stabilator movement (7 degrees of trailing edge movement if I remember correctly)... it’s not connected to any other flight control surfaces.

 

yes.  Every fighter should have AGCAS... to equip the F-15C with it would require a significant retrofit of the on board systems and flight controls (not that it can’t be done... the F-15E has a 3-channel redundant digital flight control system.  So maybe it would be possible to retrofit that).  Probably cheaper overall though to just replace the old jets with new ones that already incorporate this technology (F-15EX?  F-35?)

 

[brabus]

I’m fully aware, just too bad nonetheless. 

[Negatory]

Totally possible for the EX, the C-model is kind of a lost cause for AGCAS.

Edited November 28, 2020 by Negatory

[brabus]

8 hours ago, Negatory said:

Totally possible for the EX

Is it because they changed out the original Nintendos connected to crank pulleys for circa 1998 XBOXes? I knew it...

[Vandy01]

5 hours ago, brabus said:

Is it because they changed out the original Nintendos connected to crank pulleys for circa 1998 XBOXes? I knew it...

All for the low low price of tens of millions of dollars, too!

[Bigred]

Perhaps a stupid question as I’ve never flown a fighter, but breaking out at 1,000ft, in a dive at 550+ knots, would he have even had the reaction time to max perform the jet? 

[Homestar]

I don’t fly fighters either but I think I read something like 38,000 VVI, which is about 700 ft/sec to recognize/confirm/recover. Not likely. 

[brabus]

45 nose low, 569 kts, 1k...not a chance. There’s a reason the 214 specifies 10% dive angle rel to alt below 5k. 
 

Question for the Eagle bros: Can you get a “break X” in the MFDs/HUD/HMCS based on altitude set in the cockpit (and hopefully also based off dive angle)? 

[VMFA187]

On 11/29/2020 at 5:37 AM, brabus said:

45 nose low, 569 kts, 1k...not a chance. There’s a reason the 214 specifies 10% dive angle rel to alt below 5k. 
 

Question for the Eagle bros: Can you get a “break X” in the MFDs/HUD/HMCS based on altitude set in the cockpit (and hopefully also based off dive angle)? 

I only worked for Boeing as an F-15C CIP for a couple of years before hopping over to LM and the F-35, but I don't recall any sort of low altitude warning system like we had in the Hornet or the F-35 with visual cues that were displayed in the helmet. It was always just ensuring you had a proper scan of altitude. 

[brabus]

Seems like it wouldn’t be difficult to code basic symbology display when passing a cockpit selectable altitude relative to exceeding a coded dive angle (not pilot selectable). 

[JeremiahWeed]

The only thing we had was a programmable audio alert.  Set a specific MSL altitude and it would go off when you passed that altitude.  Other than that it was some standard ROT based on dive angle x 100 for an AGL WAG (i.e. 2000' no lower than 20 degree NL without a no-shit dive recovery effort).

Edited November 30, 2020 by JeremiahWeed

[M2]