Airline to ANG and USERRA

[Checksix]

I am currently at an airline and in the process of applying to the Air National Guard.  From all I've read Officer School, UPT, B-course, and seasoning are exempt from the 5 year USERRA rule. My main question is are there any loopholes in the system that could become problematic later on? Such as being forced to switch from part time to full time? Possibly medically DQ after getting wings and needing to transition to another job in the ANG for your 10 year commitment? The list of scenarios could go on, but I just want to be absolutely sure I  am not putting my civilian career at risk by pursuing this dream.  

Thanks so much!

[nunya]

Good to think about things, but you're overthinking. You won't be forced from part to full time without activation orders. NGB is very aware of USERRA and good commanders make sure orders are written to keep everyone in compliance. If you lose your military medical but keep your Class 1, your new Guard job will demand way less time than your pilot job did, so no worries there. If you want to go fly for the Guard, go apply and get after it. Your airline will be there when you get back - maybe.

[D-ron]

USERRA is also written that the 5 year limit doesn't apply if you are forced by the military to stay longer than 5 years. Also, initial commitments exceeeding 5 years (e.g. pilot training) are exempt from the 5 year limit. So you'll be fine. However, be aware that it is up to you to keep track of everything.

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[kona4breakfast]

As far as I know, lately all orders state specifically whether or not they are USERRA-exempt (and therefore do not count cumulatively against the 5 year limit). You'd have to be both blessed and stupid to run out the clock on USERRA as it's rare there's enough days to keep you on for 5 years running. You'd need to do something like hire on for an extended AGR tour after seasoning and not bother to go back to the airline for a few months to reset the clock. They can fill that billet temp AGR while you're gone. If you do end up in that position, obviously you're a good fit for the unit and the unit is a good fit for you.

[SocialD]

When I read through the paperwork (15+ years ago) my commitment to the ANG was tied to me actually finishing training.  So if I had washed out of pilot training, I could have left the service with no issues.  After seasoning you won't be forced into anything unless it's a non-vol activation, which are protected indefinitely under USERRA.    Bottom line, your job will be protected. 

Now, every unit does tend to have their own internal scheduling policy which can vary wildly.  I've seen a fighter squadron that required you to attend every squadron TDY, and if you don't want to go, you better have a good excuse.  While others are much more chill and may only force you to go on TDY (maybe even half time) if it's for a pre-deployment spinup type thing...and even then you'll likely have the option to go half time.  In my 19 years in the ANG, aside from trining, I've never been forced into any trip that I didn't want to go.  

 

[mcbush]

1 hour ago, kona4breakfast said:

You'd need to do something like hire on for an extended AGR tour after seasoning and not bother to go back to the airline for a few months to reset the clock.

This is something I've always been unclear on as an AD guy. How exactly does USERRA "reset"? If you go back to your civilian job for one day, do you get another five years of protection? Does it come back on a rolling one day for one day basis? Some other more complex way?

[nunya]

52 minutes ago, mcbush said:

This is something I've always been unclear on as an AD guy. How exactly does USERRA "reset"? If you go back to your civilian job for one day, do you get another five years of protection? Does it come back on a rolling one day for one day basis? Some other more complex way?

None.  There is no reset.  Exemptions notwithstanding, it's 5 years in your entire employment with the same employer.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/38/4312

Quote

(a)(2) the cumulative length of the absence and of all previous absences from a position of employment with that employer by reason of service in the uniformed services does not exceed five years; and

 

Edited June 22, 2020 by nunya

[kona4breakfast]

21 hours ago, nunya said:

None.  There is no reset.  Exemptions notwithstanding, it's 5 years in your entire employment with the same employer.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/38/4312

 

I didn't know that. Thanks! I didn't notice that caveat in there.

[JKA360]

On 6/21/2020 at 2:13 PM, Checksix said:

From all I've read Officer School, UPT, B-course, and seasoning are exempt from the 5 year USERRA rule.

How does that work exactly? If they are exempt from the 5 years USERRA rule, are they still considered USERRA protections?

[Checksix]

7 minutes ago, JKA360 said:

How does that work exactly? If they are exempt from the 5 years USERRA rule, are they still considered USERRA protections?

From my understanding being “exempt” just means that time spent doing those things don’t count towards your five year USERRA  “clock”. However you still have full USERRA protections. 

[Guardian]

Yeah. I agree with check six.

[EvilEagle]

Careful guys - lots of people throwing around WOMs here.  I'm an airline guy and I was a commander so I've dealt with both sides.  Only specific types of orders are exempt and they will say "These orders are exempt from USERRA" right on them.  There are waivers for anything but in general:

Training orders (UPT, SERE, B-course, FWIC, etc)

Seasoning orders (post b-course or TX course if unit is transitioning)

Involuntary mobilization

 

That's it.  Your 10 year UPT commitment is most definitely NOT USERRA exempt.  You can't stay full time for 10 years and come back to your airline job without working a bunch of non-standard stuff.  You have a 10 year commitment, but don't have to be full time.  Most guys go back to the airline post-seasoning orders.  

[Peachy]

Hey y’all,

I’m in an incredibly privileged situation where I have been picked up by my #1 Guard Squadron and have a class date with an airline that I feel confident in spending the rest of my career at. And the two seem to be complimentary if I can’t get full time orders eventually. 

I understand that people in the past have been hired at an airline, gone through UPT and seasoning and ended up back at their airline with better seniority. I’m worried about how going through the UPT pipeline will affect my standing at the airline. I’m wondering if I am unfairly taking advantage of them as I will have to leave a year after getting hired to go join the guard (I don’t have dates yet). I understand the USERRA protections but I don’t know if that applies to non-prior service people in the process of commissioning and I’m concerned that I’ll violate some new hire “probationary period” at the airline (I don’t yet know if one exists). I definitely don’t want to bite the hand that feeds me but at the end of the day I can just stick it out at my current job until UPT because the guard is my #1 priority/motivation. Should I even go through with ground school? Is this something I should bring up with the hiring department? Has anyone been in/seen this situation? 

[O Face]

1 hour ago, Peachy said:

Hey y’all,

I’m in an incredibly privileged situation where I have been picked up by my #1 Guard Squadron and have a class date with an airline that I feel confident in spending the rest of my career at. And the two seem to be complimentary if I can’t get full time orders eventually. 

I understand that people in the past have been hired at an airline, gone through UPT and seasoning and ended up back at their airline with better seniority. I’m worried about how going through the UPT pipeline will affect my standing at the airline. I’m wondering if I am unfairly taking advantage of them as I will have to leave a year after getting hired to go join the guard (I don’t have dates yet). I understand the USERRA protections but I don’t know if that applies to non-prior service people in the process of commissioning and I’m concerned that I’ll violate some new hire “probationary period” at the airline (I don’t yet know if one exists). I definitely don’t want to bite the hand that feeds me but at the end of the day I can just stick it out at my current job until UPT because the guard is my #1 priority/motivation. Should I even go through with ground school? Is this something I should bring up with the hiring department? Has anyone been in/seen this situation? 

Hey Peach!  Congratulations on your selection - that is a very big deal!!  And definitely go take that airline job. More than likely OTS and UPT are well over a year away, so your probation year will be over, however, even if it wasn’t, they can’t fire you for being on military orders, even as a probie. USERRA  applies to every member of the guard and reserve, the day you swear in. We all had a guard guy or two in our UPT class who would tell us all how much their seniority has climbed while at UPT, and we all sat there listening, green with envy. You are NOT taking advantage of your airline by serving your country. Get that out of your head immediately. Trust me, your airline will gladly take advantage of you as you are sitting reserve for them. Do not bring up your guard selection unless they ask. Unless you’re working for the smallest airline on earth, they already have hundreds of guard pilots on their roster and will not even notice your absence for a few years. Then you show back up and Viola - you’re a line holder or ready to upgrade to Captain!  Welcome aboard. 

Edited October 10, 2022 by O Face
Afterthoughts

[Peachy]

9 hours ago, O Face said:

Hey Peach!  Congratulations on your selection - that is a very big deal!!  And definitely go take that airline job. More than likely OTS and UPT are well over a year away, so your probation year will be over, however, even if it wasn’t, they can’t fire you for being on military orders, even as a probie. USERRA  applies to every member of the guard and reserve, the day you swear in. We all had a guard guy or two in our UPT class who would tell us all how much their seniority has climbed while at UPT, and we all sat there listening, green with envy. You are NOT taking advantage of your airline by serving your country. Get that out of your head immediately. Trust me, your airline will gladly take advantage of you as you are sitting reserve for them. Do not bring up your guard selection unless they ask. Unless you’re working for the smallest airline on earth, they already have hundreds of guard pilots on their roster and will not even notice your absence for a few years. Then you show back up and Viola - you’re a line holder or ready to upgrade to Captain!  Welcome aboard. 

Copy all! Thanks for the insight and speedy response!!

[brabus]

You’ve hit the jackpot, take that money and run!

[herkbum]

You’ve hit the jackpot, take that money and run!

My thoughts exactly


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[SocialD]

5 hours ago, brabus said:

You’ve hit the jackpot, take that money and run!

 

Speaking of jackpot.... Peachy, I recommend you go buy a lottery ticket as well.  Congrats and goodluck!

Edited October 11, 2022 by SocialD

[Rover125]

Hi all. I am hoping to go from airlines to ANG. I do not know tons of information about the military but I have wanted to do this for a long time. I am 28yrs old and flying for United. I love to fly and it doesn't matter what aircraft I would fly, although I would choose fighters if I had the opportunity. I would like to stay in NJ to be close to United base as well for family reasons. 

I can't post a new topic yet maybe because I am a new member. What is a good resource to find all the information about starting the process before I am too old? McGuire is about 20 minutes from me. I know there's also the 177th Wing at Atlantic City. 

I have met some nice pilots at United who also are in the Guard/Reserves. I plan on asking some of them for advice on this too. Thanks for any info.

[brabus]

Lots of info on here; search for AFOQT and TBAS (two major hurdles you need to jump/schedule yourself most likely). Sounds like bogeydope.com is a good resource to find out who’s hiring and what they require for an application package.

Age is working against you - you need a lot of hustle to make it work (you’re already likely in age waiver territory, which is a hard no for some units).  

[Joedirt323]

Anyone have thoughts or advice on pursuing ANG as a pilot already at a legacy if young enough? Pros/cons?

[nunya]

It’s gotta be a serious passion project. There’s no financial or family reason I can think of to do it. You do get to do some cool shit in mil flying, but most of that you can do civilian, too, and turn it off and on as you feel like it. 

[brabus]

I’d do it - you absolutely cannot do a lot of things in the civ world that you will experience in the mil world (amount this difference is depends on what you fly). The camaraderie and life experiences in and out of the cockpit are irreplaceable by the civ world for the most part. You’ve got ~40 years left to fly the airlines, why not have some awesome experiences and serve something greater than yourself for a handful of that time?

If max money, minimizing moving, and minimizing effort required at work are important to you, then don’t do it. 

[Joedirt323]

Would it be a good “back up” if the economy faces challenge later down the road as well?

[O Face]

59 minutes ago, Joedirt323 said:

Would it be a good “back up” if the economy faces challenge later down the road as well?

Absolutely. There’s tons of dudes who rode out the whole lost decade bumming at their guard unit.