UPT Segregation

[HuggyU2]

1 hour ago, Sprkt69 said:

The good news is 2 of the students in that class are UPT Next washouts

Say again... you're coming in broken and unreadable. 

I could have sworn you said 2 of the students are UPT Next washouts.  

[elvis]

52 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

People wash out of a UPT experimental class into normal UPT?

Yup, apparently if you wash out of UPT Next, you have to fully start over and do the normal syllabus. 

[HuggyU2]

36 minutes ago, elvis said:

Yup, apparently if you wash out of UPT Next, you have to fully start over and do the normal syllabus. 

Assuming it is not an SIE, does this apply to just about everyone that washes out?  Or is this a case-by-case thing, with only a small minority getting to try again?

BTW, what's the UPT Next washout rate?

 

[elvis]

Just now, HuggyU2 said:

Assuming it is not an SIE, does this apply to just about everyone that washes out?  Or is this a case-by-case thing, with only a small minority getting to try again?

BTW, what's the UPT Next washout rate?

 

This is the first of I've heard/seen people coming to DLF from UPT Next. It's also the first I've even heard of anyone washing out of Next. My class is the one right behind the "innovation flight" where they're testing UPT 2.5 and we already have 2 people who got washed back. The students are not a fan of it at all. 

[Homestar]

PTN is experimental. Why hold a wash out against someone when it’s an unproven program?

[dream big]

27 minutes ago, Homestar said:

PTN is experimental. Why hold a wash out against someone when it’s an unproven program?

Because we all trust big Air Force to be 100% objective and act with integrity and not undermine the standards for metrics or “diversity.”  Nope, not at all. 

[HuggyU2]

2 hours ago, Homestar said:

PTN is experimental. Why hold a wash out against someone when it’s an unproven program?

I think you make a valid point worth considering.  

[Johntsunami]

16 hours ago, jice said:

Totally agree with you. 

I’m skeptical of the rationale that’s being repeated in this thread re: the justification behind an “America Class.” No offense intended to student pilots, but has anybody in a position to speak to the decisionmakers’ rationale provided insight? “Checking washout rates” seems like a massive misunderstanding of social science and statistics or something coercive with subversively racist intent. (I have faith the latter isn’t the case and hope the former isn’t either... though “no class As for X years!... don’t notice all the Bs and Cs” doesn’t build confidence.) 

In any case, @brabus’s comment is a perfect reason that we shouldn’t let anybody (to include the young guns at work) see us roll our eyes at the seemingly clumsy and overtly progressive “first all XYZ ABC” stories. Those are exactly the reactions that give people confidence in saying “it’s going to be harder for you; don’t bother.” The only ones with actual SA are us. 

Gen. Mills said the rationale essentially is that UPT is tough and requires the class to work together and that when you’re the one minority in a class full of white guys, it may be somewhat more difficult to reach out for help when you need it when the people you reach out to aren’t like you.  
He worded it a lot better but that is the gist of the idea. He also admitted that it will naturally negatively affect the diversity of future classes but they are looking to see if there is a measurable effect on washout rates for minority students. 
 

I don’t think it’s a bad idea to try FWIW

[TreeA10]

23 minutes ago, Johntsunami said:

Gen. Mills said the rationale essentially is that UPT is tough and requires the class to work together and that when you’re the one minority in a class full of white guys, it may be somewhat more difficult to reach out for help when you need it when the people you reach out to aren’t like you.  
He worded it a lot better but that is the gist of the idea. He also admitted that it will naturally negatively affect the diversity of future classes but they are looking to see if there is a measurable effect on washout rates for minority students. 
 

I don’t think it’s a bad idea to try FWIW

What happens when this person gets to a squadron and finds that the majority of the squadron is genetically different?  Going to ask for help or going to wait for the squadron demographics to change? You have to fight with what you have where you find the fight not what you wish you had and where you wish you were.  I admit getting through the program is a foot in the door, which is great, but the education in UPT is more than just stick and rudder activation. 

[Johntsunami]

38 minutes ago, TreeA10 said:

What happens when this person gets to a squadron and finds that the majority of the squadron is genetically different?  Going to ask for help or going to wait for the squadron demographics to change? You have to fight with what you have where you find the fight not what you wish you had and where you wish you were.  I admit getting through the program is a foot in the door, which is great, but the education in UPT is more than just stick and rudder activation. 

They’ll probably live life in the squadron as a minority like they live most of their lives as a minority. I imagine no change, but I’m not a minority so I couldn’t say for certain

[tac airlifter]

1 hour ago, Johntsunami said:

Gen. Mills said the rationale essentially is that UPT is tough and requires the class to work together and that when you’re the one minority in a class full of white guys, it may be somewhat more difficult to reach out for help when you need it when the people you reach out to aren’t like you.  
He worded it a lot better but that is the gist of the idea. He also admitted that it will naturally negatively affect the diversity of future classes but they are looking to see if there is a measurable effect on washout rates for minority students. 
 

I don’t think it’s a bad idea to try FWIW

I think racial segregation is a bad idea, ultimately destructive to unit cohesion and will degrade combat capability.  
 

Also curious if washouts from this class will “wash back” into regular UPT.

 

[SocialD]

1 hour ago, Johntsunami said:

Gen. Mills said the rationale essentially is that UPT is tough and requires the class to work together and that when you’re the one minority in a class full of white guys, it may be somewhat more difficult to reach out for help when you need it when the people you reach out to aren’t like you.  
He worded it a lot better but that is the gist of the idea. He also admitted that it will naturally negatively affect the diversity of future classes but they are looking to see if there is a measurable effect on washout rates for minority students. 
 

I don’t think it’s a bad idea to try FWIW

 

Ummm, won't that further drive a divide?  Hey, we think you won't be willing to reach out for help from someone different than you, so here is more people like you so you can continue to stay in your own circle...  

Edited August 31, 2020 by SocialD

[Hacker]

2 hours ago, Johntsunami said:

when you’re the one minority in a class full of white guys, it may be somewhat more difficult to reach out for help when you need it when the people you reach out to aren’t like you. 

That's exactly the problem -- it is this kind of "begging the question", a statement that is made as fact when it has never been substantiated as being true.

Immutable characteristics don't define anything about an individual's character, intelligence, skill, attitudes, etc.

The layer after layer of self-selection that is required in order to find one's self in a UPT class virtually guarantees that there is a huge commonality of humanity, motivation, character, attitudes, etc., between classmates.

[Danger41]

This is an interesting topic to me based on an interaction I had in my earlier flying career. My sister asked me to talk to her elementary school class about being in the military and specifically about being a pilot. A lot of these kids were Native Americans, Hispanics, or really poor whites. They all looked at me like I was some alien from outer space but when I mentioned some fellow aircrew that were their particular ethnic identity, they lit up. Me, being generic white man had basically zero impact, but stories of people like them doing the job really resonated and motivated them. 
 

I try to keep this in mind when I default to the positions laid out above (with which I agree). 
 

Last point that has always intrigued me. Native Americans are the highest per capita racial group that serves in the military and have been for a very long time. Many tribes are centered on a “warrior culture” and honor military service. Why isn’t there more of a push for that demographic in the flying business? I can only think of two that I’ve known in my career (naturally both had the Callsign “Chief”). I know the raw numbers of Natives are lower than other demographics, but I just don’t see that in the rated side. 
 

https://www.militarytimes.com/off-duty/military-culture/2019/11/15/a-warrior-tradition-why-native-americans-continue-fighting-for-the-same-government-that-tried-to-wipe-them-out/

[Johntsunami]

2 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

I think racial segregation is a bad idea, ultimately destructive to unit cohesion and will degrade combat capability.  
 

Also curious if washouts from this class will “wash back” into regular UPT.

 

It’s not segregation or minority-only, it’s integrating more minorities to more accurately reflect national diversity rates. The only downside is that it’ll push a few white dudes back a few classes. Also it’s a standard UPT class (or 2.5 class if at Vance) so if they wash then there’s no second chance.

[Sprkt69]

16 hours ago, elvis said:

This is the first of I've heard/seen people coming to DLF from UPT Next. It's also the first I've even heard of anyone washing out of Next. My class is the one right behind the "innovation flight" where they're testing UPT 2.5 and we already have 2 people who got washed back. The students are not a fan of it at all. 

What are they not liking about the program? 

[SPAWNmaster]

3 hours ago, Danger41 said:

This is an interesting topic to me based on an interaction I had in my earlier flying career. My sister asked me to talk to her elementary school class about being in the military and specifically about being a pilot. A lot of these kids were Native Americans, Hispanics, or really poor whites. They all looked at me like I was some alien from outer space but when I mentioned some fellow aircrew that were their particular ethnic identity, they lit up. Me, being generic white man had basically zero impact, but stories of people like them doing the job really resonated and motivated them. 
 

I try to keep this in mind when I default to the positions laid out above (with which I agree). 
 

Last point that has always intrigued me. Native Americans are the highest per capita racial group that serves in the military and have been for a very long time. Many tribes are centered on a “warrior culture” and honor military service. Why isn’t there more of a push for that demographic in the flying business? I can only think of two that I’ve known in my career (naturally both had the Callsign “Chief”). I know the raw numbers of Natives are lower than other demographics, but I just don’t see that in the rated side. 
 

https://www.militarytimes.com/off-duty/military-culture/2019/11/15/a-warrior-tradition-why-native-americans-continue-fighting-for-the-same-government-that-tried-to-wipe-them-out/

I'll bite on this (for context my wife and kids are all Native American, I've spent enough time on the Rez and one of our family members is the Director of the BIA so I've been able to learn a little bit about this ). What it comes down to is that many native populations are 1) extremely underprivileged - a lot of the communities struggle with just basic access to running water, schools, etc. And 2) the tribal populations have also been diluted significantly due to things like the residential schools, theft of children and people leaving "the rez".  WRT #1, when your community can't give you the same baseline opportunities as say your average middle american WASP community then it's a naturally steeper funnel to climb out of. So you just get raw fewer numbers of people who are even remotely capable of getting selected for UPT by that age - I'm not saying Natives can't hack it but that often they start behind the goal post instead of at the kickoff line in terms of opportunities and the resources just aren't there to foster the the natural talents/inclinations/traits that Natives might have that would normally make them a great candidate had they grown up in other circumstances. The actual talent of many Native individuals I've met is impressive though - they are naturally extremely brave, sharp and witty. It's no coincidence that our tribe (Mohawk) is known for their steel workers - guys who built the Empire State Building without harnesses, ropes or anything - literally just scaled steel into the sky and then did roll call at the bar end of the day and cheered to the men who fell that day. Some real courage and skill. WRT #2, a combination of the residential schools and skin leaving the rez in search of better opportunity has ultimately bred out / white washed the Native population. From what I have seen and learned, there literally just aren't even the raw numbers to make this a viable recruiting opportunity. By the way this is not even to speak to ancillary points like the cultural challenges of the drugs, gambling, smugling and gangs that often funnel young Natives onto the wrong path (which itself is actually not a Native problem but one that 19th/20th century Americans have given them). I think when you have a competing source of work/recreation that also would help the USAF focusing on Native communities. By the way huge props to you for identifying and recommending Natives for this, a lot of people wouldn't even think twice about this group of people who has given so much to our Nation and really got the shit end of the stick in so many ways. 

[viper154]

6 hours ago, Johntsunami said:

Gen. Mills said the rationale essentially is that UPT is tough and requires the class to work together and that when you’re the one minority in a class full of white guys, it may be somewhat more difficult to reach out for help when you need it when the people you reach out to aren’t like you.  
He worded it a lot better but that is the gist of the idea. He also admitted that it will naturally negatively affect the diversity of future classes but they are looking to see if there is a measurable effect on washout rates for minority students. 
 

I don’t think it’s a bad idea to try FWIW

Ahh, is that not one of the ideas of making a training program extremely tough, to get  individuals to work as a team from different back grounds to achieve a common objective despite their differences? 
 

Most of my class had similar skin pigments besides the internationals, beyond that many of us had very few similarities, yet we had little trouble studying together and bonded over embracing the suck. 
 

I have no problems with the intent of getting more quality candidates from different back grounds and groups, but the execution is poor. 
 

If your aren’t helping someone that fought tooth and nail for their chance at their dream job because of their skin color, genitalia, sexuality or whatever then GTFO. And that’s a two way street. The middle eastern guys with a different flag on their shoulder, different skin color, and different accent had no issues hanging out and studying with us while we drank beer and ate bbq. If you can’t get along and be a adult with other Americans working toward a common goal  of getting your wings you probably are going to struggle. 

[Johntsunami]

2 hours ago, Sprkt69 said:

What are they not liking about the program? 

I’m curious as to why they wouldn’t like it either. Only one check ride and they can use spare rides from Trans to use on Form if they need. Maybe they don’t like the early access academics.

[elvis]

3 hours ago, Sprkt69 said:

What are they not liking about the program? 

Rushed  / the VR is useless after the first few weeks of trans. This is just what I've been told by a few. 

[Homestar]

40 minutes ago, elvis said:

the VR is useless after the first few weeks of trans. This is just what I've been told by a few. 

Pretty sure the Bobs know this. It’s not a simulator. 

[dream big]

12 hours ago, Johntsunami said:

Gen. Mills said the rationale essentially is that UPT is tough and requires the class to work together and that when you’re the one minority in a class full of white guys, it may be somewhat more difficult to reach out for help when you need it when the people you reach out to aren’t like you.  
He worded it a lot better but that is the gist of the idea. He also admitted that it will naturally negatively affect the diversity of future classes but they are looking to see if there is a measurable effect on washout rates for minority students. 
 

I don’t think it’s a bad idea to try FWIW

I was a minority in a UPT class, I had zero issues.  I know many minorities in UPT classes, they all did just fine to include 5th gen fighters.  What invented issue is the Air Force trying to solve now?

[Pooter]

11 hours ago, dream big said:

I was a minority in a UPT class, I had zero issues.  I know many minorities in UPT classes, they all did just fine to include 5th gen fighters.  What invented issue is the Air Force trying to solve now?

You're right. This is absolutely a solution in search of a problem. I don't think there is any long term race or gender based washout data that exists, let alone any that supports this idiotic COA.  
 

But what's worse is that the people who this is geared toward are actively recoiling against it. The person who brought this dumpster fire to my attention is a female pilot.  When I asked her if this initiative would help female student pilots feel more included and improve their performance, she said not only no, but f*** no.
Turns out a good way of making people feel like they're part of the team is to not sequester them over on the side doing their own special thing. 
 

Women and minorities can do anything in the Air Force.. except avoid being pandered to by generals. 

[standbytostandby]

I'm sure I would have done better in UPT if only everyone in my class looked like me 🙄

A program like this is a racist's dream.

+1 to the T-6 VR being useless. I got to play with the ones at Randolph. They might as well not have flight controls.

[TreeA10]

I guess this is another way of getting folks through the program.  During my days as a T-38 IP and everyone flew the T-38 (Get off my lawn!!!), we had a kid that required 7 extra rides to get through his T-38 Contact Check.  (Funniest write-up:  XXX landed on speed and scared himself.)  This guy ended up with @20 extra rides in the program and got through.  Someone really, really wanted for him to get through the program.