is it worth dropping everything I am doing for military aviation ?

[yaboi1]

I am on the path to a good and rewarding career, but for the past year I have been debating dropping everything I am doing and try to get hired by a unit. Had a talk with a couple of fighter pilots and told me that it is only worth it if I can't see myself doing anything else. 

The adult me says that I should stick with the medical field career I am pursing, save up for an aerobatics plane and go cloud surfing when I want, and I would also have the time to do other things, travel, go camping, just do nothing. But the 20 year old me says tomorrow is never promised, why not go cloud surfing in the best aircrafts ever created and get paid for it, travel, drop some bombs, lift some heavy shit to Jesus himself, and then go to the bar and brag about how cool you are.

On a more serious note, I never felt more excited about something, I am doing better in school, I am researching on my free time. Pre-reqs for my current path feel more like a chore now, but I know that the medical career will be fun and fulfilling.

Is it all worth it or will an RV8 fill my passion? If you were in my spot, would you drop everything and try for a guard/reserve slot ?

I have heard of guard pilots having day jobs as docs, nurses, PAs, paramedics ... but I never really met one.

(also, I am aware of the pilot-physician, flight surgeon, aeromedical PA paths and are taken into consideration)

[Bigred]

I’ve known guys who got their medical degree when they were 50. You can’t start out as a military pilot much older than early 30s.

My advice, pursue the flying. 

[HU&W]

You’re 20?   Partway done with premed bachelors?  If that’s the case, you’re not dropping anything by still completing that bachelors.  If you get turned down for UPT, you’ll still have your current path as a fallback.  That bachelors can work for getting into UPT. 
 

If you were already far enough down the path to have real opportunity cost (practicing successful physician, complete with 8 years of school plus residency), my advice would be different. 

Edited October 9, 2020 by HU&W

[B52gator]

Go for it...if you don't you might regret it later.  Do your commitment and if you don't like it you're still young enough to go to med school.  

Edited October 12, 2020 by b52gator

[Dogs-N-Guns]

Flying has to be it's own reward, because the shift in focus of the military is that the flying will get done and no one cares how cool pilots are anymore. Military flying is challenging, endless training and upgrades and just because you did it correct 1,000 times, you can still screw up 1,001. Military controls where, when, and how you will fly. You are tired, too bad, press the mission. Just woke up, sorry you launch in 12 hr go back into crew rest. They also control when you don't fly. Time for PME, now staff job, training pipeline is backed up so you can't requal right now, how about a pentagon tour. You owe 10 years after training which is usually 12 year total. Granted my experience is active duty, but I've heard stories that reserves are not much better, and even the guard isn't the flying club it use to be. Still with hindsight I would do it again, but it's not for everyone. I will likely fly a desk into retirement, I have a goal to build and RV-10, but in the meantime I've discovered paramotors to scratch that flying itch.

[brabus]

How old are you/where in your med career path are you?

[HuggyU2]

There is no way to answer this question.

For me, I dropped a lucrative career to go active duty and I'm glad I did.

I know others that hated it.

You will have to think it through.  Asking "is it worth it for YOU" is unanswerable by anyone but YOU.  

[yaboi1]

40 minutes ago, brabus said:

How old are you/where in your med career path are you?

I am a sophomore in college. I say that I am "far" into my path because it is all I've been focused on since high school, building connections with Med and PA schools, doctors, admission committee, spend a lot of money and time into this ... stuff like that.  If I were to switch my focus I feel like I would be far behind a lot of people that wanted to do this out of the womb.

8 minutes ago, HuggyU2 said:

There is no way to answer this question.

For me, I dropped a lucrative career to go active duty and I'm glad I did.

I know others that hated it.

You will have to think it through.  Asking "is it worth it for YOU" is unanswerable by anyone but YOU.  

What made you switch ? Where I am at right now, I think that military flying would be worth it especially if I can land a guard spot. But 10 years down the line, I would not want a career with the air lines (maybe only for the money, but no passion involved).

There's absolutely more to the story so I don't expect anyone to tell me what's best for me. I am looking more for personal experiences. Why did you pursue this career ? Why was it all worth it ? Quality or life ? What made so good/bad ? etc.

 

PS : thank you all for the advice ! they are very helpful ... keep em coming, cheers

[Dangerzone]

You got any flight hours under your belt or at least been on a discovery? Did you serve in the military at all? Those are both kind of critical things to gauge your interest. For me having never flown anything besides a dinkey Cessna 172, being in the air is surreal, being a pilot in control of an airplane thousands of feet or a few hundred feet above the ground is a special experience most people will never be lucky enough to experience. I can’t even imagine what’s it’s like going 600+ kts as a fighter or doing cool mobility/tactical pilot shit. If you played sports growing up, that feeling of we all got a job to do and being a part of a good team with your best buds, that’s the squadron environment, not to mention the sense of enjoyment you get being a part of something bigger than yourself and taking the fight to people that hate America and you’re on the end of the spear helping that 18yr old with a rifle or delivering critical supplies or whatever. But for me it’s mainly the challenge, the camaraderie and team environment, and I love to fly airlines and want to get paid to do it. 

[Av8]

31 minutes ago, yaboi1 said:

If I were to switch my focus I feel like I would be far behind a lot of people that wanted to do this out of the womb.

First, you aren't far behind anyone. Any current USAF pilot you've ever met has had to get their degree first and you've got to focus on that right now. Secondly, if you are trying to go active duty, I would join AFROTC ASAP if that is your goal. Once you have passed your sophomore year it becomes much more difficult to commision soon after graduation. As long as you are medically qualified and a pretty good student that is easily the most surefire way (in the current climate) to go. Finally, like Bigred said in the first comment, there is an age limit for flying in the USAF that comes much sooner than your medical career age limit. If you want to find what you really are passionate about, the flying has to be the first thing you try.

 

[yaboi1]

2 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

You got any flight hours under your belt or at least been on a discovery? Did you serve in the military at all? Those are both kind of critical things to gauge your interest. For me having never flown anything besides a dinkey Cessna 172, being in the air is surreal, being a pilot in control of an airplane thousands of feet or a few hundred feet above the ground is a special experience most people will never be lucky enough to experience. I can’t even imagine what’s it’s like going 600+ kts as a fighter or doing cool mobility/tactical pilot shit. If you played sports growing up, that feeling of we all got a job to do and being a part of a good team with your best buds, that’s the squadron environment, not to mention the sense of enjoyment you get being a part of something bigger than yourself and taking the fight to people that hate America and you’re on the end of the spear helping that 18yr old with a rifle or delivering critical supplies or whatever. But for me it’s mainly the challenge, the camaraderie and team environment, and I love to fly airlines and want to get paid to do it. 

No flight hours but my friend has an extra 300 and let's play from time to time (that's what set the fire in the first place). No military experience at all, but if I am focusing on this path I will probably do one of the student programs. The only unit in my state is pretty damn far so I have to get lucky with a summer gig. I played football during high school and man do I miss the atmosphere. I expect the military to be a whole other animal. Camaraderie, prestige, heritage - these are all things that keep rubbing my soul and feel like I would regret if I don't experince. 

To be honest the only reasons keeping me from pursing this career are financial and free time. Financial - I don't care to start a family until well into my 30s nor do I care about big houses and fast cars. As long as I got myself a nice truck and my parents can enjoy retirement to the fullest, I will be happy. Free time - I constantly hear about military guys having no free time, long days, yadayadayada. And I have yet to talk with any guard pilots so if anyone wants to comment on their lifestyle, thank you in advance (do you kick the supermodel out of the bed before or after you go to work, do you take the supercar or the bike to work, how many pairs of sunglasses do you own).

 

2 hours ago, Av8 said:

First, you aren't far behind anyone. Any current USAF pilot you've ever met has had to get their degree first and you've got to focus on that right now. Secondly, if you are trying to go active duty, I would join AFROTC ASAP if that is your goal. Once you have passed your sophomore year it becomes much more difficult to commision soon after graduation. As long as you are medically qualified and a pretty good student that is easily the most surefire way (in the current climate) to go. Finally, like Bigred said in the first comment, there is an age limit for flying in the USAF that comes much sooner than your medical career age limit. If you want to find what you really are passionate about, the flying has to be the first thing you try.

 

Being medically qualified is huge. I think I got the grades and personality to land a job eventually, but if I finally make it to training and the doc tells me my left nut hangs too low to be a pilot and have to work a desk job, I will be CRUSHED. Like I said, my medical career is a safer bet but higher the risk higher the rewards. Doing my time and then transitioning back into medicine is what I am currently leaning towards, but I feel like it would eliminate some of the positives of having a high earning, rewarding career at a relatively young age (that is if I am going the PA route). By the time I am done with my 10 year commitment, I would be in my mid 30s, starting a family ideally, which means there is no time to screw around anymore, and I would be way behind my peers. However, if I do make it, my stories would be legendary and the friendships I gained would last a life time (according to most pilots)

[FourFans]

One of these opportunities comes around only once in your life.  The other will always be there.  

Factual download: the Extra 300 will NOT scratch that itch the way it wants to be scratched...they are completely different desires that look very similar until you're upside down at 15,000 feet.

Edited October 10, 2020 by FourFans130

[brabus]

By the time my college friends exited residency, I’d lived in 2 other countries, gone to war, shot and dropped most things the viper could carry at the time, flew around a bunch of countries and worked with a lot of foreign partners, made more lifelong friends (and lost more friends) than my college buddies will probably do in their lifetime, and overall had done a lot of shit that 99.9999999% of the world will never be able to even imagine. You are not even remotely “far” down the road of anything, plenty of time to change your idea of what you want to do. 
 

Granted I never had the inkling to do anything but fly, but you can do med school later, you cannot do this stuff later. Do well in school so that you do have that med backup in case flying doesn’t work out, but sounds like you will regret it later if you don’t try now. Also, most guys don’t want to stop after ten years (assuming guard, fuck AD!), so don’t assume you’ll want to make a clean cut after ten, chances are you won’t. But 6-9 years in could also be a good point to go part time and do med school/become a flying flight doc...but you may just as easily have no desire to do med after flying.

[busdriver]

You'll be just as busy completing more years of college, residency, fellowship, etc. as you will in pilot training, upgrades, etc.  

Congratulations, you've found yourself interested in two careers that both require a lot of dedication to be good.

[jazzdude]

It just comes down to what you want out of life.

If you want to fly military jets, realize there's a limited window to do that.

While you can do med school whenever, realize that the longer you wait, the harder it gets as other commitments enter your life (spouse, kids, retirement/financial planning, etc).

If you went the med school first route: Undergrad by age 22, 4 years med be school puts you at 26, and a typical 3-4 year residency program puts you at age 29-30. So technically feasible to go guard/reserve on the backside. But then you'll need to balance relevancy/currency in your primary medical career with being out of medicine for 2-3 years (likely with a pretty high debt load in the $200-300K range). This also assumes you get picked up for med school on your first look (my brother took 3 years to make the cut). Also, some specialties may be more conducive to gaps in your medical career than others.

If you go the military flying route first and got hired right away: undergrad by age 22, UPT grad by 24, 2-3 years of seasoning at your unit puts you at 27ish. From there, going to med school would mean having a unit that fine with you completely min running participation and flexibility in scheduling for 7-8 years while you get through med school/residency. Or you put in the 10 year commitment with the flying unit, putting you at 34 starting med school and finishing residency around 41 years old before making any real money (again, with about $200-300k in debt at 41). It's attainable, but there's a good bit of financial risk (if you end up in family practice, you may not be able to unload that debt while saving for retirement without living pretty austerely.

It's hard to do both; there are people that do and they are pretty exceptional people.

Another option is the AF pilot physician program, where you become an AF flight doc first and apply for the program. But I think it's less than one a year that gets picked up for the program, but they go through UPT, and maintain basic flying currency while doing aeromedical research.

Another option to consider if you want to do both is fly military, but go the nurse practitioner route instead of MD/DO. No residency requirement, lower bar to entry, less competition to enter programs, and end up doing a lot of the same day to day things as a MD/DO (at least for family practice and similar fields).

I will say that if you want to go the military route, do it because you want to serve while also flying jets. And that you can also serve as a doctor as well if you end up choosing the medical path if you do desire.

Best of luck to you in your decision. But remember, luck and timing are important as well, despite the best laid plans.

[yaboi1]

4 hours ago, jazzdude said:

It just comes down to what you want out of life.

If you want to fly military jets, realize there's a limited window to do that.

While you can do med school whenever, realize that the longer you wait, the harder it gets as other commitments enter your life (spouse, kids, retirement/financial planning, etc).

If you went the med school first route: Undergrad by age 22, 4 years med be school puts you at 26, and a typical 3-4 year residency program puts you at age 29-30. So technically feasible to go guard/reserve on the backside. But then you'll need to balance relevancy/currency in your primary medical career with being out of medicine for 2-3 years (likely with a pretty high debt load in the $200-300K range). This also assumes you get picked up for med school on your first look (my brother took 3 years to make the cut). Also, some specialties may be more conducive to gaps in your medical career than others.

If you go the military flying route first and got hired right away: undergrad by age 22, UPT grad by 24, 2-3 years of seasoning at your unit puts you at 27ish. From there, going to med school would mean having a unit that fine with you completely min running participation and flexibility in scheduling for 7-8 years while you get through med school/residency. Or you put in the 10 year commitment with the flying unit, putting you at 34 starting med school and finishing residency around 41 years old before making any real money (again, with about $200-300k in debt at 41). It's attainable, but there's a good bit of financial risk (if you end up in family practice, you may not be able to unload that debt while saving for retirement without living pretty austerely.

It's hard to do both; there are people that do and they are pretty exceptional people.

Another option is the AF pilot physician program, where you become an AF flight doc first and apply for the program. But I think it's less than one a year that gets picked up for the program, but they go through UPT, and maintain basic flying currency while doing aeromedical research.

Another option to consider if you want to do both is fly military, but go the nurse practitioner route instead of MD/DO. No residency requirement, lower bar to entry, less competition to enter programs, and end up doing a lot of the same day to day things as a MD/DO (at least for family practice and similar fields).

I will say that if you want to go the military route, do it because you want to serve while also flying jets. And that you can also serve as a doctor as well if you end up choosing the medical path if you do desire.

Best of luck to you in your decision. But remember, luck and timing are important as well, despite the best laid plans.

Yeah med school first and upt after is totally out the window, UPT first and then med school maybe. Maybe space travel is more available in the future and those 2 backgrounds would set me pretty good, but that's a stretch. UPT and then PA school is more attainable since it is only 2 years, with half the debt, and maybe I can get Uncle Sam to pay for some of it. It would be even nicer if I can be a PA as my day-job, haven't heard of anyone doing it tho. 

I was looking to serve no matter which options I was taking. Med school then HPSP, PA then be a combat medic (they get high admission rates due to experience), but flying jets and being part of a squadron is a dream. 

Thanks a lot for the help boss !

[disgruntledemployee]

Pilot 1st, Dr 2nd is my advice and its been done before.  I've known two guys that went to med school after becoming a pilot.  The first guy I met was an active duty, USAF Lt Col Flight Surgeon and I don't recall how he did med school or how long he stayed a pilot.  The other was an active duty pilot, got out, went to med school, now doing Dr stuff. 

If you join a Guard or Reserve unit while doing the degree work, you can get a feel for the military stuff and build connections for a pilot slot.  If you change your mind, back to the med path you go.  If it works out, and probably after some seasoning (experience), perhaps start up the med path again, maybe stretch it out if you're not in a hurry.  You'll likely have more flexibility to do part time to full time education while in the ANG/Reserve.  And then there are the education benefits you can use to help pay for it.

Happy hunting

[FDNYOldGuy]

8 hours ago, jazzdude said:

If you go the military flying route first and got hired right away: undergrad by age 22, UPT grad by 24, 2-3 years of seasoning at your unit puts you at 27ish.

Caveat to this @yaboi1is that heavies and Reserves no longer give 2-3 years of AD seasoning orders; they offer a no-obligation, up to 4 year term civilian (GS) job (called TDART) in lieu of orders. It’s a 40 hour a week job that’s you showing up in your flight suit daily to fly locals, jump in a sim, and do something office related for the squadron, but home every night. Not sure if you could make it work with med school schedule or not.

You could run into what @jazzdude said about min-running and potentially pissing your unit off if you don’t take the job because you’re less useful as a basic copilot/less of a team player if you’re not getting hours to upgrade and playing your part. But, most units also don’t seem to be forcing people to take it, so you could split right after UPT to work on school. If you’re honest with the unit about your intentions when hired and everyone is on the same page, no one should be too upset. You could probably still be a somewhat useful asset loading up missions during school breaks and summers, but I guess a lot depends on a million other moving pieces.

Anything is possible; just might take some serious hustle on your part and making sure your unit is in on the plan, but there’s likely a way to make it all work somehow. 

[jazzdude]

Maybe space travel is more available in the future and those 2 backgrounds would set me pretty good, but that's a stretch.

One time while PCSing, I stopped in at the Houston space center, and they had a "meet an astronaut" talk. The astronaut was a Marine fighter NFO/WSO, then went to med school, then got picked up to be an astronaut, and was only in his late 30s. Pretty incredible path/career. So yeah, those guys are out there, and I know I'm nowhere near smart enough to do two of those things much less all three

[uhhello]

1 hour ago, jazzdude said:

 

One time while PCSing, I stopped in at the Houston space center, and they had a "meet an astronaut" talk. The astronaut was a Marine fighter NFO/WSO, then went to med school, then got picked up to be an astronaut, and was only in his late 30s. Pretty incredible path/career. So yeah, those guys are out there, and I know I'm nowhere near smart enough to do two of those things much less all three

Jonathan Kim (born 1984) is an American US Navy lieutenant (and former SEAL), physician, and NASA astronaut.

A born-and-raised Californian, Kim joined the United States Navy SEALs in the early 2000s before earning a Silver Star and his commission. While a US sailor, Kim also received his Bachelor of Arts (summa cum laude) in mathematics, his Doctor of Medicine, and an acceptance to NASA Astronaut Group 22 in 2017. He completed his astronaut training in 2020 and was awaiting a flight assignment with the Artemis program as of January 2020.

[brabus]

Listened to him on a podcast, really interesting story and perspective on things...3 hrs that went by in 3 min. Would love to meet him in person. 

[HU&W]

You are so young, you’re not closing any doors.  Do your premed bachelors. You need a bachelors to become a military pilot.  Join rotc, apply for ots at the end, and rush guard units.  Also apply for medical school.  If you get picked up to be a military pilot, you win (please note, if you don’t make it through medical screening, you’re not beholden to a contract with a desk job). If you don’t get picked up, medical school is a great backup, and you still win.

If you still have the military itch after med school, you can always join and become a flight surgeon.  You get to fly with the pilots, speak the jargon, have the camaraderie, and even wear a flightsuit to work. 

[yaboi1]

4 hours ago, HU&W said:

You are so young, you’re not closing any doors.  Do your premed bachelors. You need a bachelors to become a military pilot.  Join rotc, apply for ots at the end, and rush guard units.  Also apply for medical school.  If you get picked up to be a military pilot, you win (please note, if you don’t make it through medical screening, you’re not beholden to a contract with a desk job). If you don’t get picked up, medical school is a great backup, and you still win.

If you still have the military itch after med school, you can always join and become a flight surgeon.  You get to fly with the pilots, speak the jargon, have the camaraderie, and even wear a flightsuit to work. 

If I were to start rushing units now, do you think I will be taken in consideration with no test scores or no/minimal flight hours ? I want to get my name out there but I also don't want to be a pain to the unit. Getting my flight hours up shouldn't be a problem since that is the fun part (if I can pay for them of course). The AFOQT is what I am worried about since med/PA school have their own brutal standardized tests, so planning and timing is of the essence. The med tests should be taken some time between junior and senior year since that's when my classes will cover most of the material, so I could grind now and take the pilot tests - that way I could cover the minimal requirements and not feel like I am wasting someone's time - or I could wait until my senior where I would be done with all my med stuff and just chilling waiting for any school interviews - but that would set me way back when it comes to rushing units. I also could take the pilot tests now, start rushing, and if I feel like my scores are not good enough, study harder senior year and retake them. I don't know, I am gonna have to do more research on this. What are your guys' take on this ?

16 minutes ago, PilotCandidate said:

Echoing what others have said.

Get picked up by a Guard unit right after college, go through UPT, follow on/seasoning orders, then go traditional and get accepted to a local Med school is probably the most streamlined process to do both.

Nonstandard? Sure. Impossible? No.
It’ll take a lot of extra work and coordination/understanding by your unit (and it will probably limit your Med school options) but it’s do-able if you’re willing to do it. 

I’ve been told there are multiple Dr. Guard pilot out there. 
 

I had the same aspirations when I was younger...always said there was no way I would ever want to go airlines and that I would figure out a way to make Dr. Pilot work. I’m still a know-nothing punk but this AF pilot thing is the greatest job in the world and I’m no longer convinced becoming a Dr. would lead to any greater professional fulfillment or family happiness.

Ultimately it’s up to you to decide....make sure you enjoy the process because it’s an exciting time. You still have plenty of time to figure things out. Don’t feel like you need to know how to kill all the terrorists and cure cancer as a sophomore in college. 

I try to take it easy on setting up my future today and let the "calling" come to me instead of chasing it. I always had a plan set before this, as in what I want to do, but this aviation bug really threw me a curve ball so now I feel like I am going nowhere and making no progress. Still, the requirements for both careers are generally the same - get good grades, don't be an ass, and meet people that live your perfect life - so I don't know why I am stressing so much over this.

 

Thank you all for all the advice ! It has been very helpful 

[FLEA]

3 hours ago, yaboi1 said:

If I were to start rushing units now, do you think I will be taken in consideration with no test scores or no/minimal flight hours ? I want to get my name out there but I also don't want to be a pain to the unit. Getting my flight hours up shouldn't be a problem since that is the fun part (if I can pay for them of course). The AFOQT is what I am worried about since med/PA school have their own brutal standardized tests, so planning and timing is of the essence. The med tests should be taken some time between junior and senior year since that's when my classes will cover most of the material, so I could grind now and take the pilot tests - that way I could cover the minimal requirements and not feel like I am wasting someone's time - or I could wait until my senior where I would be done with all my med stuff and just chilling waiting for any school interviews - but that would set me way back when it comes to rushing units. I also could take the pilot tests now, start rushing, and if I feel like my scores are not good enough, study harder senior year and retake them. I don't know, I am gonna have to do more research on this. What are your guys' take on this ?

I try to take it easy on setting up my future today and let the "calling" come to me instead of chasing it. I always had a plan set before this, as in what I want to do, but this aviation bug really threw me a curve ball so now I feel like I am going nowhere and making no progress. Still, the requirements for both careers are generally the same - get good grades, don't be an ass, and meet people that live your perfect life - so I don't know why I am stressing so much over this.

 

Thank you all for all the advice ! It has been very helpful 

The AFOQT is laughable to the MCAT and for a pilot slot the only score that needs to be competitive is your pilot score. The minimums on the rest will net you a commission. 

Anyway, this is an easy problem for you to solve. I would skip the math and English section of AFOQT prep because you have a solid foundation of that for the MCAT. But practice the pilot stuff a few hours because a lot of it is spacial comprehension and chart reading. None of it is cosmic but the time pressure is difficult in the test. You need to be able to infer information from an image or chart quickly to have enough time to answer all questions. You can cram this in one weekend and take the AFOQT the next week. Your scores will probably be fine. If not you get 6 months to line up your future again while you contemplate a retest. 

[HU&W]

On 10/11/2020 at 1:57 PM, yaboi1 said:

If I were to start rushing units now, do you think I will be taken in consideration with no test scores or no/minimal flight hours ? I want to get my name out there but I also don't want to be a pain to the unit. Getting my flight hours up shouldn't be a problem since that is the fun part (if I can pay for them of course). The AFOQT is what I am worried about since med/PA school have their own brutal standardized tests, so planning and timing is of the essence. The med tests should be taken some time between junior and senior year since that's when my classes will cover most of the material, so I could grind now and take the pilot tests - that way I could cover the minimal requirements and not feel like I am wasting someone's time - or I could wait until my senior where I would be done with all my med stuff and just chilling waiting for any school interviews - but that would set me way back when it comes to rushing units. I also could take the pilot tests now, start rushing, and if I feel like my scores are not good enough, study harder senior year and retake them. I don't know, I am gonna have to do more research on this. What are your guys' take on this ?

Just take the afoqt. If you do poorly, study a bit and retake it a few months later with no penalty.  No stress there compared to MCAT.  Also, get the idea of wasting people’s time out of your head. If you’re qualified and have potential, that’s why recruiter jobs exist. If you’re not, there will be no secret, and they’ll be the first to tell you you’re wasting time.  Just do it (and build up some hours).