YOU are the problem

[Standby]

12 hours ago, Pooter said:

Lots of words  

[Guardian]

Yeah “Standby” said it best. It is in fact your opinion and subjective experience. Then willingness to disregard people who think different from you.

Look how many millions of people have lost their jobs. And the coming hard ships from the inflation that is likely to happen. The unnecessary mass shut downs that have happened and continue to happen for a death rate less than 1%. And that death rate existed prior to the vaccine. What would happen if a mass pandemic with a death rate like those of the past would happen today?

You forgot a category. What about the group of people who don’t want to bail the military out of its own stupidity requiring only those who are taking a not required experimental drug to deploy or go TDY? I’ve heard of those types too. Why should the person sacrifice their own beliefs to not vaccinate on a not required vaccine just to help the military fill a deployment? I get it. We are all volunteers but the Air Force can force us to violate other beliefs.

Not saying I fall into any of these categories. But it seems you are awful critical of those choosing not to vaccinate. And I haven’t heard a good reason why.

[Tank]

3 hours ago, Pooter said:

Because not getting the vaccine could cause you much bigger problems...  I'm sorry your friend got brain fog from the vaccine. That's a new one I haven't heard about. But I would urge you to weigh the risks of the two options:

Option one: give yourself ~95% protection from the virus and risk hypothetical long term side effects and the occasional case of brain fog. 
 

Option two: risk it with a virus that's killed half a million people in a year. Oh and we also don't know what covid's long term effects might be either. 

And If we're doing brain fog anecdotes, I'll chime in with my anecdotal evidence too: every single person that I know who has gotten the vaccine felt slightly off for one day, had arm soreness for a few days, and then went about their life. 

Take a vaccine that is 95% effective for a virus that has a 99% survivability rate?

Take a chance on a vaccine with possible long-term implications on my already healthy body and lifestyle?

Take a chance on a vaccine that, if I had implications, could cause me to not be able to pass my annual flight physical or keep my FAA Class 1 medical?

Again, until it is FDA certified with more testing and there are more options for the vaccine, I’ll wait...

[Pooter]

2 hours ago, Guardian said:

Yeah “Standby” said it best. It is in fact your opinion and subjective experience. Then willingness to disregard people who think different from you.

Look how many millions of people have lost their jobs. And the coming hard ships from the inflation that is likely to happen. The unnecessary mass shut downs that have happened and continue to happen for a death rate less than 1%. And that death rate existed prior to the vaccine. What would happen if a mass pandemic with a death rate like those of the past would happen today?

You forgot a category. What about the group of people who don’t want to bail the military out of its own stupidity requiring only those who are taking a not required experimental drug to deploy or go TDY? I’ve heard of those types too. Why should the person sacrifice their own beliefs to not vaccinate on a not required vaccine just to help the military fill a deployment? I get it. We are all volunteers but the Air Force can force us to violate other beliefs.

Not saying I fall into any of these categories. But it seems you are awful critical of those choosing not to vaccinate. And I haven’t heard a good reason why.

I don't have any beef with you that covid policy at both the national level and Air Force level has been botched to a preposterous degree. That is plainly evident from the devastating shutdowns in places like California. 

But my entire argument is those things shouldn't factor into your personal vaccine decision. At the end of the day we have a dangerous virus and a vaccine to reduce your chances of getting it by 95%. All current medical evidence, the CDC, and the medical community of the entire world say the vaccines are safe.  And by getting it you protect other people too as it has been proven to reduce transmission. 

[jazzdude]

Even at ~67% willingness to get the vaccine, the military is doing about the same as the general public of the same age range.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1257152
https://www.pewresearch.org/science/2021/03/05/growing-share-of-americans-say-they-plan-to-get-a-covid-19-vaccine-or-already-have/

I get why people would want to defer until the vaccine it's fully approved, especially if they are otherwise healthy and have an otherwise stable job and access to decent healthcare (i.e. military). So I don't really hold it against them for wanting more information before injecting something into their body, especially when you can look at your odds for catching and dying from COVID and rationalize waiting.

[Pooter]

45 minutes ago, Tank said:

Take a vaccine that is 95% effective for a virus that has a 99% survivability rate?

Take a chance on a vaccine with possible long-term implications on my already healthy body and lifestyle?

Take a chance on a vaccine that, if I had implications, could cause me to not be able to pass my annual flight physical or keep my FAA Class 1 medical?

Again, until it is FDA certified with more testing and there are more options for the vaccine, I’ll wait...

Sounds like a nasty hypothetical.  Here's  another one.  You skip the vaccine, catch covid, and end up losing your class 1 due to actual observed long term side effects of covid that we already know about.  
 

All you have to do to know this vaccine  side effect argument is misguided is to look at the history of vaccines. Adverse side effects across a variety of vaccines are on the order of 1/10,000 to 1/100,000.  Depending on your demographic covid has a 1/100 to 1/1000 chance of killing you.  So basically you're choosing to risk a much more likely and much worse outcome now, to mitigate a much less likely and much less severe thing later.  Am I missing something here?

Also I'm really curious how, in the minds of conservatives, the FDA went from giant bloated stupid bureaucracy to ultimate vaccine gatekeeper seemingly overnight. 

[Tank]

Just now, Pooter said:

Sounds like a nasty hypothetical.  Here's  another one.  You skip the vaccine, catch covid, and end up losing your class 1 due to actual observed long term side effects of covid that we already know about.  
 

All you have to do to know this vaccine  side effect argument is misguided is to look at the history of vaccines. Adverse side effects across a variety of vaccines are on the order of 1/10,000 to 1/100,000.  Depending on your demographic covid has a 1/100 to 1/1000 chance of killing you.  So basically you're choosing to risk a much more likely and much worse outcome now, to mitigate a much less likely and much less severe thing later.  Am I missing something here?

Also I'm really curious how, in the minds of conservatives, the FDA went from giant bloated stupid bureaucracy to ultimate vaccine gatekeeper seemingly overnight. 

Is this a conservative vs. liberal argument or a vax vs. anti-vax argument?

I am a registered Republican but vote across party lines and only vote for who I think is the best candidate.  I also could care less if you or anybody else believe in vaccines or are anti-vax. 

I could give a rats ass about the FDA as an agency.  My argument is that every vaccine and shot we take in the military has been clinically tested and FDA approved.  Even still, people bitch about the anthrax and small pox shots and bitch about having to take them.  So why now the big push for a vaccine that has not been approved by the FDA or hasn’t been clinically proven to the standards we’re used to?

Honestly, I don’t have to explain to you or anybody else for that matter why I am choosing not to take the COVID vaccine.  Until it is required, we still have a choice.  I’m only debating this for debate sake and unlike you, I am not trying to change anybody’s minds or persuade them to act like I do.  
 

Keep preaching to the masses though and good luck with whatever you choose to do.

 

[Pooter]

1 minute ago, Tank said:

Is this a conservative vs. liberal argument or a vax vs. anti-vax argument?

I am a registered Republican but vote across party lines and only vote for who I think is the best candidate.  I also could care less if you or anybody else believe in vaccines or are anti-vax. 

I could give a rats ass about the FDA as an agency.  My argument is that every vaccine and shot we take in the military has been clinically tested and FDA approved.  Even still, people bitch about the anthrax and small pox shots and bitch about having to take them.  So why now the big push for a vaccine that has not been approved by the FDA or hasn’t been clinically proven to the standards we’re used to?

Honestly, I don’t have to explain to you or anybody else for that matter why I am choosing not to take the COVID vaccine.  Until it is required, we still have a choice.  I’m only debating this for debate sake and unlike you, I am not trying to change anybody’s minds or persuade them to act like I do.  
 

Keep preaching to the masses though and good luck with whatever you choose to do.

 

Obviously I'm not here to change everyone's minds either, and I doubt random internet commenters opting out of the vaccine will ever directly impact me. I just enjoy playing devils advocate especially when these threads get a little too echo-chamber-ey. 
 

My main motivation is that I'm a very data driven person and all the data I see point to getting the vaccine. The data also points to lockdowns being stupid, lest to you think I'm some far left nut. 
 

But to me the vaccine makes sense not only for your personal health but also to put an end to the national and military-wide covid rules stupidity. It's crazy to see people complain about covid restrictions and then turn down the vaccine.. the one thing that might actually make a difference and get these rules lifted. 

[jazzdude]

Sounds like a nasty hypothetical.  Here's  another one.  You skip the vaccine, catch covid, and end up losing your class 1 due to actual observed long term side effects of covid that we already know about.  
 
All you have to do to know this vaccine  side effect argument is misguided is to look at the history of vaccines. Adverse side effects across a variety of vaccines are on the order of 1/10,000 to 1/100,000.  Depending on your demographic covid has a 1/100 to 1/1000 chance of killing you.  So basically you're choosing to risk a much more likely and much worse outcome now, to mitigate a much less likely and much less severe thing later.  Am I missing something here?

Also I'm really curious how, in the minds of conservatives, the FDA went from giant bloated stupid bureaucracy to ultimate vaccine gatekeeper seemingly overnight. 

I get the point you're trying to make with your numbers, but you're missing chance of exposure, which reduces that 1/100 or 1/1000 to somewhere lower than that, based on where you go, who you interact with, indoor/outdoor, no mask/mask/respirator, etc. A 1-10% chance of infection puts you in the ballpark of the adverse vaccine effects. Contrast that with exposure to the vaccine; either you get it, or don't.

Plus, people are bad with probabilities anyways. (Ref. Lotteries)

Having an expert (in this case, the FDA) weigh in helps you make informed decision by analyzing the data and distilling the results into something the average person can understand.

You'll still have people that move the goalpost after FDA approval to justify why they still don't want to take it, but that's not a new problem to vaccinations.

I'm sure full FDA approval will encourage more people to get the shot. From there, it's how to message to the holdouts to get them to change their minds.

What makes this conversation hard is both political sides don't want to acknowledge that different people may hold different values, which changes how they assess and handle risks. So there's a lot of talking past each other, rather than trying to understand their viewpoint and making a case that would appeal to the target audience. This problem gets compounded by the fact that there's still a lot we don't know (percentage of people that have long term side effects from COVID, how long the immunity lasts for a vaccinated person, can a vaccinated person still spread COVID asymptomatically, are there any long term side effects to the vaccine, to name a few)

And yes, I was someone in the wait and see camp, unfortunately got COVID over Christmas (not that I had a chance to get vaccinated before), and then elected to get the shot ahead of full FDA authorization after experiencing the "fun" of mild COVID.

[pawnman]

Anyone else think we should just start giving doses slotted for anti-vaxx holdouts to the next-lower priority? 

The goal is herd immunity.  If a 55+ year old guy doesn't want his dose,  let's stick that shot in some college kid's arm.

Edited March 9, 2021 by pawnman

[Guardian]

Shouldn’t it be the susceptible and first come first serve after. Voluntarily.

I don’t think that we should be holding out school so that normally susceptible educators can get the vaccine.

What do we do with the illegal immigrant crossings and their vaccine? Gone up from 800 a day a few months ago to more than 6000 a day over the last month or so. I’d say that’s a much bigger problem than people choosing not to take the vaccine.

[pawnman]

https://www.capradio.org/articles/2021/01/28/as-california-makes-age-a-bigger-factor-in-when-you-get-vaccinated-people-with-disabilities-are-concerned/

California put prisoners and homeless of any age in a higher priority than 50-65 year old taxpayers.

Quote

Initially, only people age 75 and older were in the first tier of Phase 1B, and people ages 65 to 74 were in the lower tier alongside transportation workers, homeless individuals and people who are incarcerated. Healthy people ages 50 to 64 and younger people with underlying medical conditions that put them at risk of severe COVID-19 are in Phase 1C.There isn’t currently an estimate on when this group will be eligible for the vaccine. 

 

[jazzdude]

Anyone else think we sounds just start giving doses slotted for anti-vaxx holdouts to the next-lower priority? 
The goal is herd immunity.  If a 55+ year old guy doesn't want his dose,  let's stick that shot in some college kid's arm.

I know we like our events based timelines, but drawing a line in the sand and saying "phase 2 is eligible here, phase 3 there" based on projected rates may help encourage people to get it earlier.

Though it sounds like there's generally still long waits to get vaccinated, even within the current phase, for people that want it. This gets compounded with scheduling problems in a complex distribution network (get the shot through doctor, other clinic, walgreens/CVS, employer, etc)

[Royal]

California has 3 million doses sitting on the shelf doing nothing. Vaccinate people that want it; the end.

[pawnman]

Just now, Royal said:

California has 3 million doses sitting on the shelf doing nothing. Vaccinate people that want it; the end.

Oh, have they gotten through all the prisoners, illegal immigrants, and homeless already?

[Royal]

1 minute ago, pawnman said:

Oh, have they gotten through all the prisoners, illegal immigrants, and homeless already?

Not sure; might be that even prisoners, illegal immigrants, and homeless people don't trust the government/pharma.

[Smokin]

"Less than 1 in 100" includes less than 5 in 10000 and also includes zero.  Zero is roughly the chance that I think I have of dying of COVID in the next decade.  I will eventually get the vaccine for the same reason I get the flu vaccine, which I also think that I currently have a roughly zero percent chance of dying from.  The flu and COVID both suck, but I'm way more likely to die from a car accident than either virus, so we need to reasonably evaluate the risks.  For the military population, the chance of death from COVID is virtually zero, which makes me think that there is something more going on here.  Speaking of which...

I cannot think of a public health issue in the history of the world that has been more politicized that this, which is why you see a substantial distrust in the system that developed it.  Remember the VP debates when now VP Harris said 'if Donald Trump tells me I should get the vaccine, I won't get the vaccine" and now she is actively advocating that exact same vaccine simply because she is now in power?  Zoom out just a little and I think you'll find reluctance to get an experimental vaccine that is being pushed by substantial political motivations for a virus is relatively non-threatening to the military population to be relatively reasonable.  The vast majority of deaths have been >65 years old.  If this is really not politically motivated, why was a healthy guy like me <40 years old offered the vaccine six weeks prior to my >65 year old parents?  Politics in the military sucks worse than COVID; it is reasonable to push back against purely political decisions being forced on the military.

[busdriver]

I got the vaccine.  I now want a shirt that proudly tells everyone I have it and they can fuck off.  Then I'll parade around in said T-shirt, no mask, and no pants.

The last part is a lie.  I'm too much of a chickenshit to actually do that.  But I did think about it, so that's something right?

[SocialD]

20 hours ago, pawnman said:

Oh, have they gotten through all the prisoners, illegal immigrants, and homeless already?

 

I know quite a few at my base would be happy if the state would vax prisoners.  We have people who have been involuntarily activated to be guards at state prisons because of COVID outbreaks within the prison.  I'm not talking our security forces, just random people on base.  My understanding is that somehow, they're not entitled to per diem for these orders either.  So they've got that going for them...

[Pooter]

18 hours ago, Smokin said:

"Less than 1 in 100" includes less than 5 in 10000 and also includes zero.  Zero is roughly the chance that I think I have of dying of COVID in the next decade.  I will eventually get the vaccine for the same reason I get the flu vaccine, which I also think that I currently have a roughly zero percent chance of dying from.  The flu and COVID both suck, but I'm way more likely to die from a car accident than either virus, so we need to reasonably evaluate the risks.  For the military population, the chance of death from COVID is virtually zero, which makes me think that there is something more going on here.  Speaking of which...

I cannot think of a public health issue in the history of the world that has been more politicized that this, which is why you see a substantial distrust in the system that developed it.  Remember the VP debates when now VP Harris said 'if Donald Trump tells me I should get the vaccine, I won't get the vaccine" and now she is actively advocating that exact same vaccine simply because she is now in power?  Zoom out just a little and I think you'll find reluctance to get an experimental vaccine that is being pushed by substantial political motivations for a virus is relatively non-threatening to the military population to be relatively reasonable.  The vast majority of deaths have been >65 years old.  If this is really not politically motivated, why was a healthy guy like me <40 years old offered the vaccine six weeks prior to my >65 year old parents?  Politics in the military sucks worse than COVID; it is reasonable to push back against purely political decisions being forced on the military.

I'm glad you aren't in a panic about covid, but regardless of how you feel, your risk is not zero.  Risk is never zero for pretty much anything and this is exactly why we compare probabilities.  Then we use those probabilities to decide what to be most concerned about.  I think statistics, history, and current experience all show your risk of actual observed effects from covid is much much higher than some hypothetical future side effects from a vaccine. 
 
In reference to your political point: I've said from the start in this thread I don't think politics should factor into your decision. Neither should dumb Air Force policies. Of course kamala is going to shit on the vaccine when trump is in charge and then advocate for it when she's in power. Is that an indictment of the vaccine or of her as a two faced, manipulative, power hungry person?  Trump would've done the exact same thing if the roles were reversed. 
 

Political posturing and dumb regulations in response to this crisis were always going to happen and they have nothing to do with the actual scientists developing a vaccines.

Edited March 10, 2021 by Pooter

[ClearedHot]

1 hour ago, Pooter said:

I'm glad you aren't in a panic about covid, but regardless of how you feel, your risk is not zero.  Risk is never zero for pretty much anything and this is exactly why we compare probabilities.  Then we use those probabilities to decide what to be most concerned about.  I think statistics, history, and current experience all show your risk of actual observed effects from covid is much much higher than some hypothetical future side effects from a vaccine. 

We will never have zero risk.  If we wanted zero risk we would never have an Air Force that puts America's best and brightest inside a piece of metal weighing hundreds of thousands of pounds, fills it with jet fuel, straps on explosives, lights it on fire and shoots it into the sky.

[Pooter]

22 minutes ago, ClearedHot said:

We will never have zero risk.  If we wanted zero risk we would never have an Air Force that puts America's best and brightest inside a piece of metal weighing hundreds of thousands of pounds, fills it with jet fuel, straps on explosives, lights it on fire and shoots it into the sky.

Agreed. And yet.. when there are easy things sitting right in front of our faces that can mitigate some of that risk, we generally do those things. 

[08Dawg]

I suppose I’m being delusional in hoping the DoD COVID policy reacts quickly to the new CDC guidelines. Everybody in my shop volunteered and has gotten the vaccine. Why am I still required to wear this damn mask? 

[bfargin]

On 3/8/2021 at 10:39 PM, Pooter said:

Obviously I'm not here to change everyone's minds either, and I doubt random internet commenters opting out of the vaccine will ever directly impact me. I just enjoy playing devils advocate especially when these threads get a little too echo-chamber-ey. 

You seem to be dedicating a lot of time and energy for "not here to change everyone's minds"

[BashiChuni]

1 hour ago, 08Dawg said:

I suppose I’m being delusional in hoping the DoD COVID policy reacts quickly to the new CDC guidelines. Everybody in my shop volunteered and has gotten the vaccine. Why am I still required to wear this damn mask? 

Cause it’s about power and control. 
 

take it off and just don’t wear it. That’s the only way to goes away