The First Amendment, Freedom of the press.

[arg]

So I remember Trey Gowdy talking about this.  The right of the press to exercise their freedom has privileges but comes with responsibilities. When they become irresponsible they should lose those privileges. The latest example of that would be the reporting on the shooting in Columbus. We could go back to the reporting of Trevon Martin, or even further, and many stories in between as other examples. Is this not akin to yelling fire in a crowded theater? This is a tricky situation because I don't really want the .gov to be able to shut down a news outlet because the party in charge will just shut down the ones that disagree with them.

 

[TreeA10]

Two major concepts drive the media. First, a majority of media outlets are supporters of the Democrat party and will say anything, true or not, to support Democrat politicians, policies, or narrative.   The last four years of "anonymous" sources leaking stories that were proven false is a good example. Second, fear drives up viewers which drives up profits. State of Fear is a book by Michael Crichton and weaves fact with fiction into a good story about the media doing just that. 

I'm not sure how you hold them accountable other than not watching. Unfortunately, your cable or satellite subscription is still paying them. I cancelled mine in favor of streaming services. 

[brabus]

I encourage everyone to start looking for more local sources of news in place of the dipshit MSM. The state and lower level isn’t immune from bias, but between this type of news media and a couple international sources, I find it much easier to get legitimate news with a lot less bullshit, “tactical omissions,” etc. Nobody in the U.S. MSM deserves a dime or even an ounce of trust from you. 
 

To arg’s post - I’d say there should be legal consequences if stories are proven to be false. Make defamation suits far easier to win and the payouts huge. Hold companies accountable when things happen like the CNN exec being caught detailing the ridiculous political war they fought against Trump. When they start getting financially squeezed out of the game, they’ll reign it in...or go bankrupt. Money and power is all they understand.

[Royal]

Conspiracy by Ryan Holiday is a great book that explores this topic.

The MSM is a dying hag grasping at relevance. I think there's going to be a day we look back at it collectively as a less credible version of the National Enquirer. 

[Prozac]

I don’t necessarily disagree that “mainstream” media is shit in this day and age (and I would include most right wing media in that description). However, I find it comical and ironic that many on the right claim to fervently support the free market, only to make a full 180 as soon as the market doesn’t align with their goals. Seems to me that those who espouse personal responsibility would extend that very American idea to include being more media savvy. That doesn’t mean going all in for InfoWars btw. It means there are sources out there that, while certainly biased, still do real, detailed journalism. Find them, read a wide variety, and you can be a reasonably well informed human being. 

[arg]

15 hours ago, brabus said:

To arg’s post - I’d say there should be legal consequences if stories are proven to be false. Make defamation suits far easier to win and the payouts huge. Hold companies accountable when things happen like the CNN exec being caught detailing the ridiculous political war they fought against Trump. When they start getting financially squeezed out of the game, they’ll reign it in...or go bankrupt. Money and power is all they understand.

Nick Sandmann is an example but $250 million from CNN was a drop in the bucket. In my opinion he should own CNN and WAPO too. The things that were reported about that kid were absolutely shameful.

[brabus]

Yep, just need a lot more Sandmann outcomes...it’d be nice if CNN was paying out $250M every week, because that’s what they should be doing. 

[TreeA10]

Proving libel in court is a much larger hurdle to clear for a public figure than a private citizen. So, Sandmann can take CNN to court and win but CNN can say damn near anything they want about a public figure and pay no penalty at all other than the damage to their credibility. 

[Pooter]

The bigger problem than media bias or even outright lies is that most people don't have the self awareness to notice that they're radicalized on one side of the aisle or the other. 
 

I tend to think about one's information diet just like a food diet. You should consume a balanced variety of information just like a healthy diet has a variety of meat, veggies, carbs etc... The difference is that at least a shitty food diet will let you know it sucks because you'll get fat. A bad information diet is far more insidious because there are no objective outward signs of radicalization until it's too late.  

 

The other piece is people whose entire existence and sense of self worth is tied up in political views. And just like food, politics should be consumed in moderation. But moderation isn't the behavior media companies want. Fox and CNN survive based on engagement, and they know that outrage and inflammatory stories drive engagement more than anything else.
 

Do we really think we're going to get for-profit media companies tone down their rhetoric when they know it will cost them engagement numbers? Is McDonald's going to purposely make their fries less tasty so you don't want to eat them as much?

 

[GrndPndr]

18 hours ago, Pooter said:

<snip>

Do we really think we're going to get for-profit media companies tone down their rhetoric when they know it will cost them engagement numbers? Is McDonald's going to purposely make their fries less tasty so you don't want to eat them as much?

 

And that is really the key.

Showing the drama (in anything) is financially beneficial to whatever news outlet is displaying it.  But, there is another component to this equation - the folks who consume their drama products...

Not many people even understand the level of truth in what content they consume, we gravitate to the news that makes us feel good in our own beliefs - even if completely false.

This whole thing feeds itself, and is nearly self-perpetuating.  And just damn ugly to watch.

[FLEA]

20 hours ago, Pooter said:

The bigger problem than media bias or even outright lies is that most people don't have the self awareness to notice that they're radicalized on one side of the aisle or the other. 
 

I tend to think about one's information diet just like a food diet. You should consume a balanced variety of information just like a healthy diet has a variety of meat, veggies, carbs etc... The difference is that at least a shitty food diet will let you know it sucks because you'll get fat. A bad information diet is far more insidious because there are no objective outward signs of radicalization until it's too late.  

 

The other piece is people whose entire existence and sense of self worth is tied up in political views. And just like food, politics should be consumed in moderation. But moderation isn't the behavior media companies want. Fox and CNN survive based on engagement, and they know that outrage and inflammatory stories drive engagement more than anything else.
 

Do we really think we're going to get for-profit media companies tone down their rhetoric when they know it will cost them engagement numbers? Is McDonald's going to purposely make their fries less tasty so you don't want to eat them as much?

 

Great analysis of the topic. Thanks for posting that. 

[raimius]

On 4/22/2021 at 11:09 PM, arg said:

So I remember Trey Gowdy talking about this.  The right of the press to exercise their freedom has privileges but comes with responsibilities. When they become irresponsible they should lose those privileges. The latest example of that would be the reporting on the shooting in Columbus. We could go back to the reporting of Trevon Martin, or even further, and many stories in between as other examples. Is this not akin to yelling fire in a crowded theater? This is a tricky situation because I don't really want the .gov to be able to shut down a news outlet because the party in charge will just shut down the ones that disagree with them.

 

I really don't want the government telling reporters what they can say...

 

That said, perhaps changing the libel standards would help.  I think you should be able to sue against companies that intentionally report false information.  (I don't think there is a good legal solution for slanted reporting, as it is so subjective.)

[pbar]

The irony of a free press is that it is simultaneously a democracy's/republic's greatest defender and greatest threat.  When the press does its watchdog role faithfully against the government irrespective of who is in power, it is vital to our system of governance.  But when it decides to become merely the propaganda arm for one political party, then it is dangerous.  

 

[ClearedHot]

The "Free Press" is dead, replaced by mouthpieces for each political party.  Truly sad.

It is now being reported that CBS knew about Biden's classified documents BEFORE the mid-terms and sat on it.  NBC knew about the second tranche for weeks and sat on it.

[VMFA187]

On 1/17/2023 at 3:21 AM, ClearedHot said:

The "Free Press" is dead, replaced by mouthpieces for each political party.  Truly sad.

It is now being reported that CBS knew about Biden's classified documents BEFORE the mid-terms and sat on it.  NBC knew about the second tranche for weeks and sat on it.

Source? Not that I don't believe you, but I would like to verify it before a false "Russian collusion" vs. true "Media collusion" discussion is had. 

[ClearedHot]

1 hour ago, VMFA187 said:

Source? Not that I don't believe you, but I would like to verify it before a false "Russian collusion" vs. true "Media collusion" discussion is had. 

I've seen it reported in multiple places (not just fox), here is a quick link on Google.

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/fox-friends-call-for-investigation-into-cbs-nbc-sitting-on-biden-classified-docs-story-to-swing-the-election/

 

[FLEA]

1 hour ago, VMFA187 said:

Source? Not that I don't believe you, but I would like to verify it before a false "Russian collusion" vs. true "Media collusion" discussion is had. 

So to be clear.... media does collude. I know this for a fact. I was on a conference call with execs from CNN, MSNBC, FOX, WaPo, NYT, and a few others during the Afghanistan withdrawal in 2021 when they shared how they were going to spin the story and what type of pressures they wanted to put on the American population and the Biden admin. In other words, about a dozen journalist were making a unilateral determination about how they felt the American public should view the event. How I got on that call.... I'm still not really sure.... I was volunteering for an NGO at the time and that's how I got the invite. It certainly wasn't my military job. If people on the call knew I was military I would have probably been instantly booted. But man.... it was the most eye opening thing for me. 

[Biff_T]

26 minutes ago, FLEA said:

So to be clear.... media does collude. I know this for a fact. I was on a conference call with execs from CNN, MSNBC, FOX, WaPo, NYT, and a few others during the Afghanistan withdrawal in 2021 when they shared how they were going to spin the story and what type of pressures they wanted to put on the American population and the Biden admin. In other words, about a dozen journalist were making a unilateral determination about how they felt the American public should view the event. How I got on that call.... I'm still not really sure.... I was volunteering for an NGO at the time and that's how I got the invite. It certainly wasn't my military job. If people on the call knew I was military I would have probably been instantly booted. But man.... it was the most eye opening thing for me. 

That's nuts man!   It's kinda like something a German media genius named Joseph would be proud of.  I would say share this with the media but ...lol

[FLEA]

14 minutes ago, Biff_T said:

That's nuts man!   It's kinda like something a German media genius named Joseph would be proud of.  I would say share this with the media but ...lol

Yeah, and I'm not going to say its all the same players at all the same times. Like, on that call we had Fox and CNN there and it was clear both agreed on some things and disagreed on others. But generally they were looking for the things they were in concurrence about to get emphasis and then each outlet would put their own little damper on things they disagreed about. 

Its strange to think of all the press against Biden in that event but remember target #2 for Taliban after Terps/ANSOF/Pilots was Journalist. Many of those journalist had VERY close relationships with these networks and those networks relied on them to get inside stories and information that would have been culturally inaccessible to them before. US Media was funding HUGE money to get female journalist OUT in anyway possible. 

[nsplayr]

NGL, this sounds like perfectly normal human behavior. I don’t see anything sinister about different media companies jumping on a VTC about a big story but then retaining the freedom (and exercising it!) to present the story in their own way for their own audiences. 🤷‍♂️

If you don’t like how a particular journalist or network presents the news, luckily today you have more alternatives to choose from than ever before.

I would argue the media today is freer from government interference and less likely to acquiesce to government requests and spin than in the past, even while simultaneously they are more ideological and partisan in all directions.

Hell, lots of people didn’t know FDR was in a wheelchair!

[dream big]

6 hours ago, FLEA said:

Yeah, and I'm not going to say its all the same players at all the same times. Like, on that call we had Fox and CNN there and it was clear both agreed on some things and disagreed on others. But generally they were looking for the things they were in concurrence about to get emphasis and then each outlet would put their own little damper on things they disagreed about. 

It’s strange to think of all the press against Biden in that event but remember target #2 for Taliban after Terps/ANSOF/Pilots was Journalist. Many of those journalist had VERY close relationships with these networks and those networks relied on them to get inside stories and information that would have been culturally inaccessible to them before. US Media was funding HUGE money to get female journalist OUT in anyway possible. 

Well unfortunately for the media, worldwide coverage of Afghans falling off a U.S. C-17 taking off from Kabul is pretty hard to spin, and a pretty fitting sight for the most incompetent administration and defense department in history. 

[StoleIt]

3 hours ago, dream big said:

Well unfortunately for the media, worldwide coverage of Afghans falling off a U.S. C-17 taking off from Kabul is pretty hard to spin, and a pretty fitting sight for the most incompetent administration and defense department in history. 

I think we see if that way...asking around to my non-military friends I firmly believe the general population thinks we did a great job. The spin worked. They didn't fall off the plane because of our crappy plan, they fell off the plane because of the Taliban/Afghan's government's failure.

[ClearedHot]

10 hours ago, nsplayr said:

NGL, this sounds like perfectly normal human behavior. I don’t see anything sinister about different media companies jumping on a VTC about a big story but then retaining the freedom (and exercising it!) to present the story in their own way for their own audiences. 🤷‍♂️

If you don’t like how a particular journalist or network presents the news, luckily today you have more alternatives to choose from than ever before.

I would argue the media today is freer from government interference and less likely to acquiesce to government requests and spin than in the past, even while simultaneously they are more ideological and partisan in all directions.

Hell, lots of people didn’t know FDR was in a wheelchair!

Of course you think it is normal for a DNC controlled media outlet to suppress a potential crime that jeopardizes national security by the sitting President....perfectly normal, nothing to see here.

[filthy_liar]

On 4/29/2021 at 2:15 AM, raimius said:

I really don't want the government telling reporters what they can say...

 

That said, perhaps changing the libel standards would help.  I think you should be able to sue against companies that intentionally report false information.

To your first sentence, me neither.  To your second paragraph... no.  But I hate lawyers, I think they have done way more damage than good in protecting my liberties.  Unfortunately that brings us to a very ugly historical reality - the press is controlled by violence.  A side decides that enough is enough in whatever condition, they change that environment, and they make sure the press, the professors, and anyone else that can influence society are overthrown also.

I've no idea how to reign in what you are talking about, and to make matters worse, the spread of info is so fast it makes the violence option that much more attractive at the strategic level.  That's why so many governments resort to it.

[nsplayr]

2 hours ago, filthy_liar said:

Unfortunately that brings us to a very ugly historical reality - the press is controlled by violence.  A side decides that enough is enough in whatever condition, they change that environment, and they make sure the press, the professors, and anyone else that can influence society are overthrown also.

Are…are you saying this is desirable or moral or you want this to happen? 😬🚩

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, but I think you should clarify what you meant.

My view is we should follow the Constitution, maintain a free press, not resort to fascism, and if you don’t like what a particular reporter or outlet is saying you debate them, issue your own statements directly to your intended audience, start your own media company, or as a regular Joe just patronize one of the innumerable or other outlets out there. Technology makes all of the above easier than ever before!

People lying, using bad faith, and reporting things incorrectly in “the media” is a feature of human society as far back as we have records for. Romans in the Senate literally bitched about the same shit y’all are today on this thread.

As the saying goes, a free press is the worst option, except all the other ones we’ve tried.

Edited January 26, 2023 by nsplayr