The First Amendment, Freedom of the press.

[pawnman]

13 hours ago, nsplayr said:

Are…are you saying this is desirable or moral or you want this to happen? 😬🚩

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, but I think you should clarify what you meant.

My view is we should follow the Constitution, maintain a free press, not resort to fascism, and if you don’t like what a particular reporter or outlet is saying you debate them, issue your own statements directly to your intended audience, start your own media company, or as a regular Joe just patronize one of the innumerable or other outlets out there. Technology makes all of the above easier than ever before!

People lying, using bad faith, and reporting things incorrectly in “the media” is a feature of human society as far back as we have records for. Romans in the Senate literally bitched about the same shit y’all are today on this thread.

As the saying goes, a free press is the worst option, except all the other ones we’ve tried.

I agree we should have a free press. Not one that the FBI and DOJ lean on to ensure the outcome of an election...

[FLEA]

Also press should be mandated to report financial contributions for stories they run. You might not know this but companies often pay news organizations to write stories or do segments on their products/service disguised as "news." Same goes for political campaigns that do the exact same thing. 

Lastly, a significant amount of primary education needs focused on teaching people that news media is not a reliable source of information in any capacity. There's a reason its not citable in academia but we need to be more explicit at telling youth and teens that media isn't there for your benefit to consume information--its there for the benefit of other entities who want to advertise products/services or push policy efforts. The legitimate news stories that are featured on news are often just there to keep the entire image of media as a trustworthy source afloat and make it impossible to distinguish biased/bent stories. But by and large a journalist does not have a noble job--their job is to make revenue for their network. Same as any other private sector entity. Why we place so much trust in them is beyond me. 

[filthy_liar]

18 hours ago, nsplayr said:

Are…are you saying this is desirable or moral or you want this to happen?

Moral?  Dunno.  I definitely do not want this to happen in America though.

[nsplayr]

1 hour ago, filthy_liar said:

Moral?  Dunno.  I definitely do not want this to happen in America though.

I ask is it moral for the state to use violence to control the press and this man says he doesn’t know?? Lol ok.

Survey said…no!

At least you are against it even if your moral compass is spinning circles.

Edited January 27, 2023 by nsplayr

[filthy_liar]

Are you say your moral compass is not spinning circles?  Every government on earth that has overthrown another one has used violence to shut down the opponent's media.  Including us shutting down ole George III.

[HeloDude]

On 1/25/2023 at 10:21 PM, nsplayr said:

My view is we should follow the Constitution, maintain a free press, not resort to fascism…

Just curious if you think DeSantis and the GOP FL state legislature passing Constitutional/permitless carry is “fascism”?  This Dem Congressman thinks it is btw…

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/democratic-rep-maxwell-frost-says-florida-proposed-permitless-gun-carry-law-fascism.amp

[FourFans]

Fascism according to Mr Webster: "A political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition."

Yeah, allowing constitutional carry is clearly aimed at putting nation and race above the individual (who can now carry his own weapon more easily) and DEFINITELY empowers a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader...who almost universally in history have depended on the removal private gun ownership.

...just on the off chance there's anyone here who cares about words and the means they have...

Edited February 9, 2023 by FourFans130

[ClearedHot]

Our 1st amendment is under attack from many directions, I hope you are paying attention.

NewsNation reporter arrested during a news conference after Ohio law enforcement told him to stop his live broadcast

[ViperMan]

2 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

Our 1st amendment is under attack from many directions, I hope you are paying attention.

NewsNation reporter arrested during a news conference after Ohio law enforcement told him to stop his live broadcast

2nd amendment is the only one that actually matters. It's the only one with a meaningful "fuck you."

[FourFans]

13 hours ago, ViperMan said:

2nd amendment is the only one that actually matters. It's the only one with a meaningful "fuck you."

I think I disagree on that...but it's a near thing.  I don't think a well regulated militia has ever been used to enforce the 1st amendment...or any other for that matter...in modern history.  I think show-of-force has been an excellent use of the 2nd amendment recently.  The deterrent influence of a good man with a guy gun cannot be understated.  There is also the tactical truth that only a good man with a gun stops a bad man with a gun, but that's a low-level fact that rarely actually changes real legislation.  Beyond that, I don't have the history data on whether or not an armed American citizen force has ever stopped or reversed a federal or state law enforcement action in modern history.  Our citizens simply don't go armed and organized toe-to-toe with state or federal forces.

In any case, I think freedom of the press and freedom of the speech is incalculably more important at a morale and practical level.  History has shown that the ability to freely exchange ideas is immensely more powerful than the ability to display raw military force at least in the long game.  Free exchange of ideas can in fact generate military force, even in an oppressed society.

Edited February 10, 2023 by FourFans130
The Freudian slip

[jice]

9 minutes ago, FourFans130 said:

I think I disagree on that...but it's a near thing.  I don't think a well regulated militia has ever been used to enforce the 1st amendment...or any other for that matter...in modern history.  At most I think show-of-force has been an excellent use of the 2nd amendment recently.  The deterrent influence of a good man with a guy cannot be understated.  Beyond that, I don't have the history database on whether or not an armed American citizen force has ever stopped or reversed a federal or state law enforcement action in modern history.

In any case, I think freedom of the press and freedom of the speech is incalculably more important at a morale and practical level.  History has shown that the ability to freely exchange ideas is immensely more powerful than the ability to display raw military force.  Free exchange of ideas can in fact generate military force, even in an oppressed society.

In fun: “a good man with a guy…”

Seriously though: The only reason the second amendment matters is to guarantee the rest of our constitutional form of government. A constitution of only 2A is anarchy, where the ability to consolidate power and use violence reigns supreme.

 IR theory holds that the definition of a state includes a monopoly on the use of violence internally. In the context of the rest of the constitution, the 2A reminds us that that state and the monopoly on violence (internal to the state) is fundamentally the citizenry’s, delegable to organs of the state.

So! @ViperMan that FU only matters because of the rest of the constitution. 

Edited February 10, 2023 by jice
Forgot my point.

[brabus]

50 minutes ago, FourFans130 said:

Our citizens simply don't go armed and organized toe-to-toe with state or federal forces.

2014, Bundy ranch in Nevada. Armed citizens won a standoff with the feds - the feds finally just quit and walked away (I think because they ultimately knew another Waco would be really bad for them).

Edited February 10, 2023 by brabus

[FourFans]

3 hours ago, jice said:

In fun: “a good man with a guy…”

  

3 hours ago, FourFans130 said:

The deterrent influence of a good man with a guy cannot be understated.

In my defense...that statement is also true in many scenarios...

Edited February 10, 2023 by FourFans130

[bfargin]

6 hours ago, FourFans130 said:

Beyond that, I don't have the history data on whether or not an armed American citizen force has ever stopped or reversed a federal or state law enforcement action in modern history.  Our citizens simply don't go armed and organized toe-to-toe with state or federal forces.

This incident was a local government (state backed though).

 

https://www.military.com/history/time-world-war-ii-veterans-overthrew-corrupt-local-government-tennessee.html

[ViperMan]

@FourFans130 and @jice, I was being intentionally a little provocative. I agree the rest of the constitution matters, but I do think the 2nd amendment is categorically unique.

It speaks to the primacy of violence. Which at the end of the day, underpins every system man has created.

[arg]

 

[Guest LumberjackAxe]

Honestly, Tulsi has been the only candidate in recent elections that I actively and positively wanted to be president. Is prior military service that much to ask for? I obviously don't agree with everything she says or does but goddamn could we just get a veteran in oval office?

[HeloDude]

11 minutes ago, LumberjackAxe said:

Honestly, Tulsi has been the only candidate in recent elections that I actively and positively wanted to be president. Is prior military service that much to ask for? I obviously don't agree with everything she says or does but goddamn could we just get a veteran in oval office?

DeSantis work for you?

[Guest LumberjackAxe]

10 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

DeSantis work for you?

More or less, I'd be thrilled if he won the Republican ticket

[HeloDude]

2 hours ago, LumberjackAxe said:

More or less, I'd be thrilled if he won the Republican ticket

He’s a veteran, that’s why I asked.

[FourFans]

1970's - 2020's

Reagan - Desantis

Russians - Chinese/Russians

Severe 'self induced' Inflation - Severe 'self induced' inflation

('self induced' reads: "democrat controlled legislation induced" seriously...read history)

Negative Media Bias - Negative Media Bias...with a heavy Left tilt

High waisted pants on my wife for no reason - High waisted pants on my wife for no reason

Entitled generation of toddlers hanging in the balance - Entitled generation of toddlers hanging in the balance

Just exited unpopular war that left a bunch of vets really unhappy - Just exited unpopular war that left a bunch of vets really unhappy.

So, this is what the 70's were like?   

Cool

Edited February 12, 2023 by FourFans130

[Lord Ratner]

On 2/10/2023 at 7:47 AM, FourFans130 said:

Beyond that, I don't have the history data on whether or not an armed American citizen force has ever stopped or reversed a federal or state law enforcement action in modern history.  Our citizens simply don't go armed and organized toe-to-toe with state or federal forces.

 

On 2/10/2023 at 8:38 AM, brabus said:

2014, Bundy ranch in Nevada. Armed citizens won a standoff with the feds - the feds finally just quit and walked away (I think because they ultimately knew another Waco would be really bad for them).

Yes! These are the two examples I always use. Bundy shows a bloodless use of the 2A.

Waco shows a bloody use. Yeah, those people died, but because of their guns they forced the government to draw blood for what they wanted, and that price turned out to be too high, leading to changes in how the govt performs raids.

 

The 2A is about increasing the cost of tyranny, not just allowing for a popular revolt.

[brabus]

Yep. I’m pretty confident a Bundy type event will happen where I live if required…choose wisely where you live in this country. There are likely rockier times ahead before things swing better. 

[kaputt]

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/florida-bill-require-bloggers-write-governor-legislators-register-stat-rcna73191?fbclid=IwAR2fPxt60T5arwOqe02KRhl-bA4lEnk82G2727d5ueLoxKaRo4DbUnxhG80
 

Well looks like individuals on both sides of the aisle want to introduce ridiculous bills. This one was just introduced in Florida by a Republican state legislator. 

[BashiChuni]

That bill is ridiculous 

Edited March 3, 2023 by BashiChuni