Expeditionary basing, logistics and seaplanes (yeah it's a seaplane thread)

[Biff_T]

3 minutes ago, Clark Griswold said:

A Fiero with a fiberglass Lamborghini body kit is still ultimately a Fiero

Good things the chicks at my local trailer park never figured this out. 

[Clark Griswold]

New PBYs

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/aviation-company-relaunching-pby-5-as-modern-military-aircraft


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[Lawman]

New PBYs

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/aviation-company-relaunching-pby-5-as-modern-military-aircraft


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Look everybody can agree the PBY is a classic design that has beautiful lines, but even in the time it was flying it was nowhere near the best flying boat available, just the most iconic.

There have been a host of designs since then more suitable to tasks/mission sets we are now taking about. Not to mention a lot of understanding about aerodynamics or structural engineering for such designs. If this is first and foremost a logistics platform, using a sea borne scout plane as the base of design is a horridly bad idea.


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[Clark Griswold]

2 hours ago, Lawman said:

Look everybody can agree the PBY is a classic design that has beautiful lines, but even in the time it was flying it was nowhere near the best flying boat available, just the most iconic.

There have been a host of designs since then more suitable to tasks/mission sets we are now taking about. Not to mention a lot of understanding about aerodynamics or structural engineering for such designs. If this is first and foremost a logistics platform, using a sea borne scout plane as the base of design is a horridly bad idea.

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Concur, I love the lines but if this is to actually happen another design is probably / have to be it. 

My druthers, the amphibious requirement is two parts, a short range containerized delivery capable platform and a long range people and unpalletized cargo platform.   I caveat those to advocate for two already flying designs with some reasonable mods:

Amphibious variant of the War Tractor with a new cargo pod capability:

Pod attached between the pontoons capable of air drop or combat offload

US-2 in ANG colors

[herkbum]

US-2 in ANG colors

I’m sure the Montgomery boys would love this


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[Clark Griswold]

I’m sure the Montgomery boys would love this


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Yup, one of their guys write for WOR and ii pulled it from the his article

https://warontherocks.com/2021/11/a-japanese-seaplane-could-be-the-difference-maker-for-the-u-s-military/

I think if we’re serious about having this capability then sooner is better than later hence the advocacy for existing designs

The biggest thing about the US-2 or what would be the big platform would be whether or not it needs a ramp to offload X pallets, containerized X system or a vehicle(s) and would it need to be able to do this beached or afloat?

Define the requirements


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[Biff_T]

 

 

 

[Lawman]

Yup, one of their guys write for WOR and ii pulled it from the his article

https://warontherocks.com/2021/11/a-japanese-seaplane-could-be-the-difference-maker-for-the-u-s-military/

I think if we’re serious about having this capability then sooner is better than later hence the advocacy for existing designs

The biggest thing about the US-2 or what would be the big platform would be whether or not it needs a ramp to offload X pallets, containerized X system or a vehicle(s) and would it need to be able to do this beached or afloat?

Define the requirements


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Anybody that questions palletized ramp offload vs other options, go compare a Sherpa/Osprey/47 onload and offload of cargo to a C-12 or Dornier. Not pax’s and luggage I mean pallets of commo and tough boxes they need to do a job at a location. A single forklift can do the work in minutes that takes at least an hour because no only do you have people shuffling up a set of stairs with a yeti cooler of crap at a time, they can’t just turn around and back out. Also compare them as jump platforms or airdrop cargo because let’s face it that’s gonna be a big part of your customer option.

Unless you can get a pallet sized sliding door on the side we shouldn’t even entertain the idea of a logistics platform that can only be loaded by hand. If it can’t be loaded up with a 10-15K fork loader it’s going to cost time and sortie rate as we unpalletized stuff that was delivered by big ramp aircraft to stick it in this and take it to a location only accessible by seaplane that then has to be unloaded again.

If it’s being unloaded in a zodiac, try putting one of those through the door of the previous listed planes. Let alone carry the motor of it without accidentally dropping it down the stairs. And a rear ramp gives you an option to simply low pass and push floating supply pallets to be recovered to the beach by the receiving group.


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[Clark Griswold]

1 hour ago, Lawman said:

Anybody that questions palletized ramp offload vs other options, go compare a Sherpa/Osprey/47 onload and offload of cargo to a C-12 or Dornier. Not pax’s and luggage I mean pallets of commo and tough boxes they need to do a job at a location. A single forklift can do the work in minutes that takes at least an hour because no only do you have people shuffling up a set of stairs with a yeti cooler of crap at a time, they can’t just turn around and back out. Also compare them as jump platforms or airdrop cargo because let’s face it that’s gonna be a big part of your customer option.

Unless you can get a pallet sized sliding door on the side we shouldn’t even entertain the idea of a logistics platform that can only be loaded by hand. If it can’t be loaded up with a 10-15K fork loader it’s going to cost time and sortie rate as we unpalletized stuff that was delivered by big ramp aircraft to stick it in this and take it to a location only accessible by seaplane that then has to be unloaded again.

If it’s being unloaded in a zodiac, try putting one of those through the door of the previous listed planes. Let alone carry the motor of it without accidentally dropping it down the stairs. And a rear ramp gives you an option to simply low pass and push floating supply pallets to be recovered to the beach by the receiving group.

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No doubt as to your points on the strength of / probable necessity of having a ramp and door system vs standard or roll-up only doors.  

So that's the 6.9 billion dollar question(s) - Do you need a fixed wing amphibious platform and does it have to have a ramp and door system for roll on / off & air drop?

Probably not something to be discussed here but given the way the USMC and USAF are planning on major distributed ops, yes to both.  Observing the Ukranian-Russian war, munitions expend rates will drive high resupply needs in most modern conflicts between capable opponents.

A smallish fleet of US-2s and amphibious Twin Otters while developing a US designed / produced platform in a hurry?

DARPA's interested in this and they want it supersized vs something 130 sized

DARPA wants a heavy cargo plane that can land at sea (defensenews.com)

[FourFans]

...so what we really need is an amphibious 10k forklift...

[Clark Griswold]

An oldie but goodie and this will never happen ever but... take the Convair R3Y Tradewind as a basis / inspiration and build a new platform using the Europrop TP400 

Give it a little fatter longer hull, integrate landing gear into the new hull like the US-2 and keep the cargo door / ramp on the bow...

I know this is day-dream territory but if you want a dramatic statement and gain in capability, a program to create a rapid, fast, capable platform would signal and deter an aggressor in a large, maritime theater.  

We have advanced engineering, manufacturing capability and supposedly a focus on this type theater, how long would it really take to fast track and develop this?  Assuming the resources were to be made available...

[Clark Griswold]

Just some more posts on the G111T - this (seaplane revival) is a path to establishing more defense links with the Aussies

 

[Lawman]

...so what we really need is an amphibious 10k forklift...

While I get the joke, go get the NGIC briefing on Ukraine and focus on the logistics and sustainment sides of it. (The non sexy stuff people ignore).

We have hard number data now on just how much of a force multiplier a single forklift or K loader is because we are watching a peer military do without it. When I think of just how many pallets of stuff moved on Ramps at Bagram or Taji for a war where sustainment of ammunition wasn’t really a concern. Now imagine the same scenario without the automation and organized work gangs of 18-23 year olds who don’t want to be there and are poorly supervised. That is gonna be a major make/break point beyond simply having enough ready munitions in stock (the current shiny thing of focus).


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[bfargin]

Clark, any thoughts on parlaying some of Bartini’s ground effect ideas (Biffs shared video above) into any sea plane plans. It wouldn’t have altitude to use defensively but, if it could do 300 to 400 knots at 50 to 100 feet off the deck efficiently while carrying huge loads, it could still prove pretty handy. He dreamt big, but I’d guess there’d still be some serious utility from many of his ideas both commercially and militarily.

[Lawman]

Clark, any thoughts on parlaying some of Bartini’s ground effect ideas (Biffs shared video above) into any sea plane plans. It wouldn’t have altitude to use defensively but, if it could do 300 to 400 knots at 50 to 100 feet off the deck efficiently while carrying huge loads, it could still prove pretty handy. He dreamt big, but I’d guess there’d still be some serious utility from many of his ideas both commercially and militarily.

The ground effect airfoil systems are essentially a higher speed version of hydrofoil/hovercraft type designs.

They have specific niche areas where they work effectively to do rapid light transfers but they are extremely limited in any sort of dynamic open water environment. Start adding up distances and unpredictable weather patterns. There is a reason outside a very few areas you don’t see high-speed hydrofoils and even when you do, they are an augmentation to the existing heavy conventional sealift (good example the Greek isles).

The real fear for the Caspian Sea monster and other ground effect systems wasn’t their ability to rapidly put a mass of troops and equipment, it was because they were effectively a warship’s worth of cruise missile platform that could rapidly move and maneuver from a relatively safe sanctuary to a firing position against a land or sea based target and then run away before presenting a viable target. Same with things like of the same era like the OSA missile boats. A swarm of them would present a real dilemma for a fleet forcing them to exercise stand off and render themselves ineffective.


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[Clark Griswold]

1 hour ago, bfargin said:

Clark, any thoughts on parlaying some of Bartini’s ground effect ideas (Biffs shared video above) into any sea plane plans. It wouldn’t have altitude to use defensively but, if it could do 300 to 400 knots at 50 to 100 feet off the deck efficiently while carrying huge loads, it could still prove pretty handy. He dreamt big, but I’d guess there’d still be some serious utility from many of his ideas both commercially and militarily.

What at @Lawman man said

The other thing I see is how many of these monster in ground effect platforms could you have?  I see a reborn R3Y platform as being more affordable to procure and deploy in numbers, able to do more missions and service more island FARPs during a high intensity conflict more often than a huge in ground effect platform(s).

Historical photo, seaplane and submarine refueling:

Posted this to stir the pot on what the CONOP would be for short, medium and long range operations for a seaplane.

The Air Force develops the aircraft, Navy the resupply submarine or semi submersible base ships and the USMC develops the mobile ramps, docks and bridging equipment that can support amphibious operations.

[BFM this]

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/aviation-company-relaunching-pby-5-as-modern-military-aircraft

[DirkDiggler]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_P6M_SeaMaster
 

  We need to step it up a notch….nuke carrying jet powered seaplanes or bust.

[Lawman]

What at [mention=2836]Lawman[/mention] man said
The other thing I see is how many of these monster in ground effect platforms could you have?  I see a reborn R3Y platform as being more affordable to procure and deploy in numbers, able to do more missions and service more island FARPs during a high intensity conflict more often than a huge in ground effect platform(s).
Historical photo, seaplane and submarine refueling:

Posted this to stir the pot on what the CONOP would be for short, medium and long range operations for a seaplane.
The Air Force develops the aircraft, Navy the resupply submarine or semi submersible base ships and the USMC develops the mobile ramps, docks and bridging equipment that can support amphibious operations.

I feel like there is a real lesson to be learned from the cartel drone subs out there.

Expendable resupply vehicle that would force somebody to burn a lot of effort to find it or use it to build a wider intel picture. That seems like the perfect way to augment resupply of guys doing their best impression of the coast watchers where airdrop or other methods might show too much of your hand. But before somebody goes over the top with capabilities this like so many other things doesn’t need to be overbuilt. Stay with something that isn’t intended for the hard threat mission like the SDV, just something that will boat it’s way to your friendlies without shouting to the world a trail of breadcrumbs.

Maybe something small enough it could be hand rolled off the back of a small amphibious ramp equipped logistics platform… dropped far enough from an island chain to swim without giving away their position or to just stash its self and wait.


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[Clark Griswold]

3 hours ago, Lawman said:

I feel like there is a real lesson to be learned from the cartel drone subs out there.

Expendable resupply vehicle that would force somebody to burn a lot of effort to find it or use it to build a wider intel picture. That seems like the perfect way to augment resupply of guys doing their best impression of the coast watchers where airdrop or other methods might show too much of your hand. But before somebody goes over the top with capabilities this like so many other things doesn’t need to be overbuilt. Stay with something that isn’t intended for the hard threat mission like the SDV, just something that will boat it’s way to your friendlies without shouting to the world a trail of breadcrumbs.

Maybe something small enough it could be hand rolled off the back of a small amphibious ramp equipped logistics platform… dropped far enough from an island chain to swim without giving away their position or to just stash its self and wait.

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Cocaine logistics 

“Cocaine Logistics” for the Marine Corps - War on the Rocks

Open Source Intelligence: Atlantic Drug Submarine May Be Related To Pacific Example (forbes.com)

Drop off unmanned resupply vehicles off the ramp in water or low alt, rise lather repeat

More floatplane porn....

https://www.douglasdc3.com/float/float.htm

Give it to Basler Turbo Conversions for full update, profit

BASLER TURBO CONVERSIONS - Home

[Biff_T]

Bartini's design was interesting but all you really need are a few waves to render it useless.   I do like how he ran with a totally different idea.   It would have been shocking to have seen one of those show up to the fight.  Lol

[Clark Griswold]

55 minutes ago, Biff_T said:

Bartini's design was interesting but all you really need are a few waves to render it useless.   I do like how he ran with a totally different idea.   It would have been shocking to have seen one of those show up to the fight.  Lol

Oh yeah, it's not for mil ops or likely any application but grist for the mill...

The floatplane concept C-130 might have to be it as I doubt the Bobs or Congress want to divest something to develop and acquire a new amphibious platform... seriously doubt there is appetite for anything totally new and getting more money for it.

I am an optimist though when you look at this concept, if really develop it with all the capabilities needed into it, landing gear, docking thrusters, lifting pontoons, etc... this could be a relevant platform.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Clark Griswold

[Biff_T]

15 minutes ago, Clark Griswold said:

Oh yeah, it's not for mil ops or likely any application but grist for the mill...

The floatplane concept C-130 might have to be it as I doubt the Bobs or Congress want to divest something to develop and acquire a new amphibious platform... seriously doubt there is appetite for anything totally new and getting more money for it.

I am an optimist though when you look at this concept, if really develop it with all the capabilities needed into it, landing gear, docking thrusters, lifting pontoons, etc... this could be a relevant platform.

This

[Prosuper]

A company in Florida is bringing back the PBY and going to do what Basler in Oshkosh did to the C-47. This company wants to ressurect the PBY 'Catalina' seaplane (interestingengineering.com)

[Clark Griswold]

Not enough Monopoly money for the most critical acquisition needed for the USAF… 

https://www.twz.com/air/c-130-float-plane-program-put-on-pause-by-special-operations-command

Sarcasm aside I still think the juice is worth the squeeze in the case of a seaplane 

A US produced BE200 like jet would probably fit into op plans for INDOPACOM for transport, tanker, ISR, stand off strike, SOF support, etc…

 

US-2 could also work, pricey but available right now