pawnman Posted August 30, 2021 Posted August 30, 2021 1 minute ago, hockeydork said: You two trading blows isn't helping anything. You're right. My fault for engaging another troll.
gearhog Posted August 30, 2021 Posted August 30, 2021 1 minute ago, pawnman said: You're right. My fault for engaging another troll. Hey, bro: You've been vigorously defending your argument that it's okay to kill an unvaccinated person to save a vaccinated one. I'm not the troll here. You can either disengage or admit that maybe your position has flaws. Feel free to choose other CoA, but I'll be here ready to bury your posts.
FUSEPLUG Posted August 30, 2021 Posted August 30, 2021 17 hours ago, JBueno said: There’s a red line that’s quickly approaching and it’s not going to be pretty. There’s a big can of kerosene labeled “careers & livelihoods” that the DoD is about to dump into this raging debate. Judging by the small sample size I’m exposed to…it’s gonna be a total sh*t show to actually implement. Going back a couple pages… What are the the feelings across the AF? As a Guard guy, my finger isn’t exactly on the pulse anymore. Are folks considering taking a hard line regarding this mandate if it comes to it? Just curious what you guys are hearing in your circles. Sorry to breakup the hypothetical ventilator cat fight. (BTW you can have my ventilator when it comes down to it… regardless of your vacc status.)
Scooter14 Posted August 30, 2021 Posted August 30, 2021 Israel is one of the highest vaxed nations in the world. Worth asking the question why their case rate is spiking. Jesus help me.One more time for the people in the back…The vaccine does not prevent COVID. You can still get COVID if you’ve had the vaccine just like you can still get the flu if you’ve had the flu vaccine.The vaccine allows the immune system to mount a more effective response so you are far less likely to die, end up in the hospital or suffer long term damage from the disease. The vaccine also helps your body fight it faster so you are contagious for a shorter duration.It’s not that cosmic folks. Of course the case rate is gonna go up. They all got the vaccine and now they are back to Ops normal. But, what’s the rate of hospitalization between vaccinated and unvaccinated? What’s the intubation rate between the two? What’s the death rate? You need more than one crayon to paint this picture. 4
gearhog Posted August 30, 2021 Posted August 30, 2021 17 minutes ago, hockeydork said: Long term you may indeed be right. There is something to be said for from an immunity standpoint would we have been better off all catching the same variant of COVID quickly with natural immunity. Like you said, who knows. The problem with that plan of action tho was the hospital capacity isn't/wasn't available. If this was just the common cold people wouldn't be stuck in the ICU due to COVID. Maybe from a population standpoint this was indeed the better move, but from an individual stand point not so much if you were the one who ended up getting rocked by the virus. If it was possible, it isn't, maybe the best thing would be to have every human lock themselves in a room for a few weeks. I don't know either dude, if there's a variant that starts cracking through the current vaxs defenses significantly, that is going to really suck for everybody. Let's both hope it doesn't happen. But I believe it will most definitely happen. This virus will always evade our defenses for as long as there are people and animals. Just as heart disease, diabetes, cancer, etc have. I've had COVID. Once definitely, twice possibly. For me, it was moderately severe. I was legitimately scared the first time. After, I started to consider my irrational fears and where they came from. I have been hospitalized with pneumonia and atelactasis previously, but wasn't as fearful. Something was different. The information I was getting second hand didn't match what I have experience first hand over the last year. I know people who have died from this. But I also know more people who have died from other things. Took my family to Germany in 2018. Went to Rudesheim. The Carl Jung winery is there. I became interested in his books. They're a little bland, so I can't say that I read them thoroughly, but there's some good stuff in there. For instance: Mass Psychosis. Everything he has said on the subject seems to have been deliberately and carefully put into practice. Here's a boiled down article: https://academyofideas.com/2021/02/mass-psychosis-greatest-threat-to-humanity/ There is more to life than paralyzing fear of death. If a person can't see that not only are we facing a somewhat deadly virus, but worse yet, a system that seeks to exploit it, they're willfully naive. Don't buy into it.
FlyingWolf Posted August 30, 2021 Posted August 30, 2021 5 minutes ago, Scooter14 said: Jesus help me. One more time for the people in the back… The vaccine does not prevent COVID. You can still get COVID if you’ve had the vaccine just like you can still get the flu if you’ve had the flu vaccine. The vaccine allows the immune system to mount a more effective response so you are far less likely to die, end up in the hospital or suffer long term damage from the disease. The vaccine also helps your body fight it faster so you are contagious for a shorter duration. It’s not that cosmic folks. Of course the case rate is gonna go up. They all got the vaccine and now they are back to Ops normal. But, what’s the rate of hospitalization between vaccinated and unvaccinated? What’s the intubation rate between the two? What’s the death rate? You need more than one crayon to paint this picture. Yes, though that is not how it was originally sold, nor is it how it works with all vaccines/viruses. and it begs the question... Which presents more evolutionary pressure to a virus: partially inhospitable immune systems or unprepared ones? I don't know, it probably depends on particular variables, and there is some evidence partially effective vaccines may encourage mutations. There is a line of argument out there that the unvaccinated are causing the mutations, but the opposite may be more true here. It will probably be a while yet before we know. 1
Pooter Posted August 30, 2021 Posted August 30, 2021 3 hours ago, ecugringo said: No the argument is mute. A dilemma for a MD to choose between a vaxed or un-vaxed patient? If that is a true scenario the vax has failed. We are being told that 99% of all patients are un-vaxed. Israel is hte most vaxed population on earth but pushing a booster now? The US is about 50-60% vaxed now not factoring in hte under age 12 group. So a huge chunk of hte population has the needle. Therefore the pool of ppl to be infected should be pretty small at this point. Considering 60% would show no symptoms, 28% would be mild and 12% would need hospitalization. This is why some ppl are questioning the shot in the first place. Moot, as in "having little or no practical relevance." We know that the vaccine dramatically reduces the chance of hospitalization. Therefore a more vaccinated population will have fewer hospitalizations per capita, resulting in a less strained health care system. If the hospitals are only half full, turns out you don't have to worry about who to give the last ventilator to. Instead, we live in the stupidest possible timeline where these hypotheticals can and have actually happened. We have the privilege of living in a timeline where people are more interested in fish tank cleaner and horse de-wormer they heard about on a podcast than a vaccine endorsed by virtually every epidemiologist in the western world. **caveat** love JRE. Just not a great place for reliable medical guidance. 2
Pooter Posted August 30, 2021 Posted August 30, 2021 44 minutes ago, FlyingWolf said: Yes, though that is not how it was originally sold, nor is it how it works with all vaccines/viruses. and it begs the question... Which presents more evolutionary pressure to a virus: partially inhospitable immune systems or unprepared ones? I don't know, it probably depends on particular variables, and there is some evidence partially effective vaccines may encourage mutations. There is a line of argument out there that the unvaccinated are causing the mutations, but the opposite may be more true here. It will probably be a while yet before we know. Two questions: -How do you think the vaccine was sold? By whom? Because some of us have understood for quite a while this is much more similar to a yearly flu vaccine situation than a polio vaccine one-and-done situation. -How would a vaccinated person's immune system encourage mutations any more than the immune system of a person with natural immunity from having had the virus, and then re-encountering it? 1
Negatory Posted August 30, 2021 Posted August 30, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, torqued said: Hey, bro: You've been vigorously defending your argument that it's okay to kill an unvaccinated person to save a vaccinated one. I'm not the troll here. You can either disengage or admit that maybe your position has flaws. Feel free to choose other CoA, but I'll be here ready to bury your posts. You’ve been unable to actually engage the core of the issue: when resources get to a point of NOT ALLOWING EVERYONE TO BE CARED FOR, you can’t just provide help “where help is needed” like you said. Be pragmatic and actually address a world where there are limited resources. Or live in la la land where hospitals being filled up by unvaccinated folks - who chose to not do anything to prevent that outcome - has totally no negative effect on other people or society. Edited August 30, 2021 by Negatory
Pooter Posted August 30, 2021 Posted August 30, 2021 7 minutes ago, Negatory said: You’ve been unable to actually engage the core of the issue: when resources get to a point of NOT ALLOWING EVERYONE TO BE CARED FOR, you can’t just provide help “where help is needed” like you said. Be pragmatic and actually address a world where there are limited resources. Or live in la la land where hospitals being filled up by unvaccinated folks - who chose to not do anything to prevent that outcome - has totally no negative effect on other people or society. I can answer this for you based on how ICU doctors in the country behave on every Friday night shift.. you triage patients based on severity and allocate resources to the ones in the most critical condition. If two patients are in the same exact condition, and you can only take care of one, it probably comes down to chance or whoever got there first. Any medical care policy regarding covid vax status or comorbidities or how you got into that situation would inevitably be met with massive legal challenges as it would be a huge violation of the Hippocratic oath.
Negatory Posted August 30, 2021 Posted August 30, 2021 (edited) It’s a nuanced medical question that makes people uncomfortable, because it turns out the Hippocratic oath doesn’t cover everything when it comes to ethics. There are already numerous papers written right now on culpability of patients in prioritization of care and how to apply that to caring for a population. You don’t have to actively deny care for anyone - that would be against the core values of medicine - but prioritizing someone lower is standard practice in medical triage. Also, severity is not the only variable taken into account during triage. Turns out there’s no universal standard, and it comes down to specific hospital/doctor standard operating procedures. https://blogs.bmj.com/medical-ethics/2020/04/29/should-culpability-or-negligence-of-the-patient-affect-triage-decisions-a-question-the-state-needs-to-answer-for-healthcare-professionals/ Edited August 30, 2021 by Negatory 1
gearhog Posted August 30, 2021 Posted August 30, 2021 1 minute ago, Negatory said: You’ve been unable to actually engage the core of the issue: when resources get to a point of NOT ALLOWING EVERYONE TO BE CARED FOR, you can’t just provide help “where help is needed” like you said. Be pragmatic and actually address a world where there are limited resources. Or live in la la land where hospitals being filled up by unvaccinated folks - who chose to not do anything to prevent that outcome - negatively affects other people. No, that's not the core of the issue. "Lack of resources" is the vague unspecific backdrop being used to justify killing someone who made a choice different that you. You may not agree with that statement, but let's start with the real core of the issue, which was a very specific hypothetical scenario created by pawnman: not enough ventilators. First, let us establish that today, this is a real threat in real places to the extent that it's worth having a debate over. By "us", I mean "you". Post a link. Second, giving you the benefit of the doubt that the above precondition will be met, I'll give you similar question about the specific scenario pawnman created: You're at a hospital with 20 ventilators and 20 people on ventilators all with hopes of recovery. 8 of them are unvaccinated. 10 more people show up. 6 of them are vaccinated (going with the 60/40% vax stats). Give them all names of friends and family you have close personal relationships with. Now, do you remove one of the ventilators from an unvaxxed patient (thereby giving them a death sentence) and give it to a vaxxed patient? pawnman unapologetically and enthusiastically says "Yes!" with absolutely no other discerning questions or qualifying statements about about any of the patients. He would actively seek to remove life from one individual and give it to another with no expert medical knowledge and would base his decision solely on vaccine - yes/no? criteria and using "insufficient resources" as an excuse. This is a very direct and straightforward question but if I were you, I wouldn't answer it. Maybe skip it.
Negatory Posted August 30, 2021 Posted August 30, 2021 4 minutes ago, torqued said: First, let us establish that today, this is a real threat in real places to the extent that it's worth having a debate over. By "us", I mean "you". Post a link. This took 5 seconds on google btw (this is the last week): https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/arkansas/articles/2021-08-23/arkansas-covid-patients-on-ventilators-reaches-new-record 6 minutes ago, torqued said: You're at a hospital with 20 ventilators and 20 people on ventilators all with hopes of recovery. 8 of them are unvaccinated. 10 more people show up. 6 of them are vaccinated (going with the 60/40% vax stats). Give them all names of friends and family you have close personal relationships with. Now, do you remove one of the ventilators from an unvaxxed patient (thereby giving them a death sentence) and give it to a vaxxed patient? Your appeals to emotion aren’t relevant. If an unvaccinated OR vaccinated person comes in with a better chance of survival than someone not doing so hot, they get prioritized. Turns out vaccinated people have significantly better outcomes, in most cases, so it’s easy to see the logical steps for prioritization. Sorry, Aunt Martha who caught COVID at an anti government lockdown protest isn’t going to be prioritized over Uncle Brandon who got a breakthrough case but is vaccinated. Yes. She may die. Welcome to the hell that is triage. This decision is being made daily in portions of the US.
Negatory Posted August 30, 2021 Posted August 30, 2021 (edited) Here’s one for you. You have a heart attack. You’re vaccinated and did not have any risk factors for a heart attack. You eat well, don’t smoke, exercise, etc. Should unvaccinated people - who were offered a vaccine for free and actively decided not to protect either themselves or society - be prioritized over you for treatment in the ICU? There’s only one bed left and it’s you and a new unvaccinated COVID patient that showed up right before you. Only one of you gets it. There are no helicopters or magic buttons. You or the COVID patient need to be in the ICU in the next 15 minutes. Choose. Oh, it’s not so black and white. Edited August 30, 2021 by Negatory 1
gearhog Posted August 30, 2021 Posted August 30, 2021 4 minutes ago, Negatory said: This took 5 seconds on google btw (this is the last week): https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/arkansas/articles/2021-08-23/arkansas-covid-patients-on-ventilators-reaches-new-record Your appeals to emotion aren’t relevant. If an unvaccinated OR vaccinated person comes in with a better chance of survival than someone not doing so hot, they get prioritized. Turns out vaccinated people have significantly better outcomes, in most cases, so it’s easy to see the logical steps for prioritization. Sorry, Aunt Martha who caught COVID at an anti government lockdown protest isn’t going to be prioritized over Uncle Brandon who got a breakthrough case but is vaccinated. Yes. She may die. Welcome to the hell that is triage. This decision is being made daily in portions of the US. "Hutchinson said hospitals in the state were working to open more ICU beds for virus patients." What a ridiculous concept. So your Aunt Martha is an anti-government lockdown protestor. That's an oddly specific politically charged reference to make when determining who you're going to remove from life support. Why is that always part of the equation and usually one of the first mentioned? You're making my point for me. You say it's not about emotion, I say it is. Just curious, when was your last shift in the hell that is triage?
Negatory Posted August 30, 2021 Posted August 30, 2021 My wife had one about 12 years ago as a paramedic in an ER after a hurricane. Copy you’re not interested in answering the question.
Darth Posted August 30, 2021 Posted August 30, 2021 You get to pick who gets treated.....and who doesn't.
gearhog Posted August 30, 2021 Posted August 30, 2021 (edited) 46 minutes ago, Negatory said: Here’s one for you. You have a heart attack. You’re vaccinated and did not have any risk factors for a heart attack. You eat well, don’t smoke, exercise, etc. Should unvaccinated people - who were offered a vaccine for free and actively decided not to protect either themselves or society - be prioritized over you for treatment in the ICU? There’s only one bed left and it’s you and a new unvaccinated COVID patient that showed up right before you. Only one of you gets it. There are no helicopters or magic buttons. You or the COVID patient need to be in the ICU in the next 15 minutes. Choose. Oh, it’s not so black and white. My whole argument has been centered on the belief that it is not black and white (vaxxed and unvaxxed). And it's not that I'm not interested in answering this question, it's that you posted the question while I was responding to your earlier post. I think you're actually asking me if I showed up after someone else in the ICU, and we both needed ICU, if I would prioritize myself ahead of them and deny them care.. as if it were some giant moral conundrum. Seriously? I'm a retired military officer who has led a full life and has been exposed to more risk than most in the name of service and sacrifice, and I continue to willingly expose myself to high risk activities on nearly a daily basis. Motorcycles, beer, steaks, flying, skiing, etc. Your question is f'ing stupid. Likely the dumbest one I've ever been asked on this forum. Edited August 30, 2021 by torqued
gearhog Posted August 30, 2021 Posted August 30, 2021 28 minutes ago, Negatory said: My wife had one about 12 years ago as a paramedic in an ER after a hurricane. Well, then... where do I mail your honorary PhD, Doc?
BashiChuni Posted August 30, 2021 Posted August 30, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Scooter14 said: Jesus help me. One more time for the people in the back… The vaccine does not prevent COVID. You can still get COVID if you’ve had the vaccine just like you can still get the flu if you’ve had the flu vaccine. The vaccine allows the immune system to mount a more effective response so you are far less likely to die, end up in the hospital or suffer long term damage from the disease. The vaccine also helps your body fight it faster so you are contagious for a shorter duration. It’s not that cosmic folks. Of course the case rate is gonna go up. They all got the vaccine and now they are back to Ops normal. But, what’s the rate of hospitalization between vaccinated and unvaccinated? What’s the intubation rate between the two? What’s the death rate? You need more than one crayon to paint this picture. Then open up society and remove all restrictions no masks. “One more time for the people in the back”…..nerd Edited August 30, 2021 by BashiChuni 2
hockeydork Posted August 30, 2021 Posted August 30, 2021 6 minutes ago, BashiChuni said: Then open up society and remove all restrictions no masks. “One more time for the people in the back”…..nerd What in society is not open right now? I do think there is validity to what you're saying, basically those who want the shot can get it, those who don't should just go mask free and if their gunna get COVID, get it over with. 3
Scooter14 Posted August 30, 2021 Posted August 30, 2021 What in society is not open right now? I do think there is validity to what you're saying, basically those who want the shot can get it, those who don't should just go mask free and if their gunna get COVID, get it over with. Exactly. Pretty much everything is open in my neck of the woods, except for the small businesses that can’t find help but that’s a whole ‘nother issue to argue about.With the exception of the minor inconvenience of occasionally wearing a mask in an airport and on base I have been traveling, working, flying, going to restaurants, playing hockey in my old guy league, etc. I’m with you hockeydork and I’ve said it all along. Get the shot, don’t get the shot, whatever you want to do. Your call…but know the facts, know the stats and know the ramifications.
Scooter14 Posted August 30, 2021 Posted August 30, 2021 Then open up society and remove all restrictions no masks. “One more time for the people in the back”…..nerdWe are trying to get there. I mean, everything is pretty much open up here in the northeast and the hospitalizations are pretty low because…get ready….We have a ~70% vaccination rate up here.But what do I know.Nerd lol! 1
Guest LumberjackAxe Posted August 30, 2021 Posted August 30, 2021 I saw a draft memo one of our enlisted troops is submitting to obtain a religious accommodation to be exempt not just for the COVID vaccine, but a whole slew of vaccines that apparently contain genetic material from abortions or were researched using aborted genetic material. This includes the rabies vaccine. Anyway, the argument for the religious accommodation was pretty straight forward. The Ten Commandments say "Thou shalt not kill," and elsewhere in the bible it says those who disobey God's orders will suffer his wrath, thus concluding that if he takes any of these vaccines then he is endorsing the murder of children and will suffer God's wrath. I told him I really can't see it succeeding, but maybe any of you have seen religious exemptions approved?
FLEA Posted August 31, 2021 Posted August 31, 2021 40 minutes ago, LumberjackAxe said: I saw a draft memo one of our enlisted troops is submitting to obtain a religious accommodation to be exempt not just for the COVID vaccine, but a whole slew of vaccines that apparently contain genetic material from abortions or were researched using aborted genetic material. This includes the rabies vaccine. Anyway, the argument for the religious accommodation was pretty straight forward. The Ten Commandments say "Thou shalt not kill," and elsewhere in the bible it says those who disobey God's orders will suffer his wrath, thus concluding that if he takes any of these vaccines then he is endorsing the murder of children and will suffer God's wrath. I told him I really can't see it succeeding, but maybe any of you have seen religious exemptions approved? He has a possibility but he need the right lawyers and ethicist to connect his case. The first thing they're going to ask if he is a consciences objector because he used "thou shalt not kill" and we are in the military. However Thomas Aquinas already justified Thou Shalt Not Kill with military service when he founded double effect doctrine which later went on to create just war theory. So if he has someone well versed in Aquinas he can likely use Aquinas arguments to show that Gods Commandment against murder is not absolute but the use of human fetuses for research is not within the parameters Aquinas outlined as acceptable cases.
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