Covid Injection Tyranny - Share and Discuss

[gearhog]

This is how you ensure future military leaders stay in line.

CBS News:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-trump-military-academy-board-appointees-spicer-conway/

 

What do these boards do?

Wake up.

 

Edited September 9, 2021 by torqued

[jazzdude]

This is how you ensure future military leaders stay in line.
CBS News:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-trump-military-academy-board-appointees-spicer-conway/
 

What do these boards do?
Wake up.
 

Those positions are political appointees, so it's not surprising.

A better question would be why are they needed in the first place?

[Sua Sponte]

Buddy of mine at Macdill had his neck surgery cancelled twice due to lack of available ICU’s in Florida due to COVID patients.

[ViperMan]

7 hours ago, pawnman said:

Because it doesn't matter what percentage isn't in the ICU.  What matters is that ICU capacity has been overrun.  There's no more room for cancer patients, car accident victims, someone who had a stroke, someone recovering from heart surgery...because people decided that they weren't going to take a vaccine that over a billion other people have already taken for ideological reasons, not for rational or medical reasons.

You live in America dude. That means there are people who are going to do things you don't like and can't control, for reasons that are wrong, and you don't agree with. Some of those things are going to have actual, real, negative consequences on you and/or people you love. As awful as that reality is, it's not an excuse to trample on people's rights. It's a reality check that you need to take care of yourself and be responsible for your actions.

Note also, that if you lived under any other system, people would still be doing things you don't like or agree with. There is not a single nation on this planet that COVID isn't "ravaging." So no matter where you live or under what system you (a human) are stuck with, your experience of this situation won't be different, so try to keep perspective on that. Let's not destroy America, or lose our conception of what freedom means.

[ViperMan]

7 hours ago, torqued said:

Apologies for the consecutive posts, but things are happening fast.

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/1667751

[picture (of bullshit)]

What. The. Actual. Fuck.

We're losing the plot. Perhaps all those musket balls should have been labelled "potentially harmful." Maybe it would have been sufficient warning to the Brits and we could have avoided a lot of akshual harm.

Edited September 9, 2021 by ViperMan

[jazzdude]

You live in America dude. That means there are people who are going to do things you don't like and can't control, for reasons that are wrong, and you don't agree with. Some of those things are going to have actual, real, negative consequences on you and/or people you love. As awful as that reality is, it's not an excuse to trample on people's rights. It's a reality check that you need to take care of yourself and be responsible for your actions.
Note also, that if you lived under any other system, people would still be doing things you don't like or agree with. There is not a single nation on this planet that COVID isn't "ravaging." So no matter where you live or under what system you (a human) are stuck with, your experience of this situation won't be different, so try to keep perspective on that. Let's not destroy America, or lose our conception of what freedom means.

There's this underlying assumption that if people need to be treated at the hospital, they can be. But in some places, that's just not the case.

So this gets back to triage: there are limited ICU beds, so if you ran the hospital, who do you treat when you hit capacity? It's not a trivial question, especially if you're living in a smaller town where there might not be alternate facilities. And you can only have the hospital staff surge for so long before they just straight up quit (appealing to their Hippocratic oath or desire to heal would go over about as well as the AF telling pilots that separating after their initial commitment is unpatriotic)

Should people delay medical procedures because of COVID? As in hospitals delaying surgeries because they don't have the capacity or resources to handle complications due to ICU capacity? That sounds like they are losing their freedom and ability to pursue their life as well because of COVID deniers. I know I would be upset if I had to delay a procedure to resolve an issue that causes me daily pain, or restricts the activities I can do, because the hospital doesn't have the resources available because they are dealing with COVID patients.

The anti vaxxers/COVID deniers are making a choice as well, and it has consequences as well. And they are free to do so. But if you think their choice doesn't affect the freedoms of other people, you're mistaken

So that brings us to this question: is access to healthcare a right in the US? If a private hospital decided it would not treat unvaccinated people, is that their right as a business?

I ask that not necessarily in favor of nationalized or socialized healthcare, but rather in the context of: you can do what you want if you value freedom, but it you get hurt, well, it may just be tough luck for you. So if you've made that choice, should others that have chosen differently have to help you?

[Sua Sponte]

1 hour ago, ViperMan said:

You live in America dude. That means there are people who are going to do things you don't like and can't control, for reasons that are wrong, and you don't agree with. Some of those things are going to have actual, real, negative consequences on you and/or people you love. As awful as that reality is, it's not an excuse to trample on people's rights. It's a reality check that you need to take care of yourself and be responsible for your actions.

Note also, that if you lived under any other system, people would still be doing things you don't like or agree with. There is not a single nation on this planet that COVID isn't "ravaging." So no matter where you live or under what system you (a human) are stuck with, your experience of this situation won't be different, so try to keep perspective on that. Let's not destroy America, or lose our conception of what freedom means.

Just curious what right(s) is being trampled that hasn’t already been decided via case law (e.g., Jacobson v. Massachusetts)?

[ViperMan]

17 minutes ago, jazzdude said:

There's this underlying assumption that if people need to be treated at the hospital, they can be. But in some places, that's just not the case.

So this gets back to triage: there are limited ICU beds, so if you ran the hospital, who do you treat when you hit capacity? It's not a trivial question, especially if you're living in a smaller town where there might not be alternate facilities. And you can only have the hospital staff surge for so long before they just straight up quit (appealing to their Hippocratic oath or desire to heal would go over about as well as the AF telling pilots that separating after their initial commitment is unpatriotic)

Should people delay medical procedures because of COVID? As in hospitals delaying surgeries because they don't have the capacity or resources to handle complications due to ICU capacity? That sounds like they are losing their freedom and ability to pursue their life as well because of COVID deniers. I know I would be upset if I had to delay a procedure to resolve an issue that causes me daily pain, or restricts the activities I can do, because the hospital doesn't have the resources available because they are dealing with COVID patients.

The anti vaxxers/COVID deniers are making a choice as well, and it has consequences as well. And they are free to do so. But if you think their choice doesn't affect the freedoms of other people, you're mistaken

So that brings us to this question: is access to healthcare a right in the US? If a private hospital decided it would not treat unvaccinated people, is that their right as a business?

I ask that not necessarily in favor of nationalized or socialized healthcare, but rather in the context of: you can do what you want if you value freedom, but it you get hurt, well, it may just be tough luck for you. So if you've made that choice, should others that have chosen differently have to help you?

You hit me with so many rhetorical questions I lost focus. I take the theme of your argument to be that trade-offs are required when presented with situations where demand exceeds supply. I agree with that. And honestly, I think trade-offs are being made in hospitals and the healthcare system all the time. Also, this was true before COVID hit (gasp!). It just so happens they were done made in insurance board rooms and on actuary spreadsheets. Perhaps we should outlaw insurance company advertising, since it takes away from the amount of care your insurance can ultimately provide.

The bottom line is that no person has lived a perfect life, and doctors, nurses, and hospitals make decisions all the time regarding who gets what care. At some level, every decision you have ever made has resulted in your current health outcomes. Should a young person who voluntarily smokes weed get treatment before someone who has never imbibed anything? Because just today, we learned that among young people, smoking weed doubles your chance of having a heart attack (https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/07/health/cannabis-heart-attack-young-adult-study-wellness/index.html). Should someone who voluntarily consumed this substance (legally) be put in front of someone who (legally) chose not to vaccinate?

These people's choices are in conflict with one another. Doctors do a pretty good job determining who the best candidates are to receive care. Other peoples' choices do affect you. This will always be true. My point is that we need to be careful about becoming too authoritarian. People can make their own choices, and they can be responsible for them.

No, healthcare is not a right. If it was, as a corollary, you would have the right to force someone else into medical school. And I know you don't have that right.

5 minutes ago, Sua Sponte said:

Just curious what right(s) is being trampled that hasn’t already been decided via case law (e.g., Jacobson v. Massachusetts)?

I don't have a contrary opinion to the decision rendered in that case. But that's only surface-level. I didn't read it and don't really care to because it ultimately doesn't matter.

If your point is that you think our government can mandate whatever it wants because there's previously decided case law, that's a weak position from which to argue. And frankly, only dumb people will continue down a path, or justify continuing down a path that they know is wrong just because they started in that direction.

Personally, I don't hold out all that much respect for the legal concept of "precedent" in and of itself. People get stuff wrong all the time, including those on the supreme court (newsflash), and we shouldn't be handcuffed to poorly decided cases - which let's be honest, there is plenty of in our country. Now, the motivation behind precedent is good: let's not be so arbitrary in our law-making that we lose collective faith in our laws. Flip side of that is we keep doing dumb shit - it is literally the sunk-cost fallacy permanently embedded into the foundation of our legal system. The more we build upon a rickety foundations, the more likely it is to all come crashing down. The democrats would have us believe that overturning any legal decision is a mortal sin. I think they know they've gotten lucky a few times.

If you're saying that since they've already trampled your rights in the past then it's cool they continue trampling them in the future, yours isn't a world I want to live in.

[Guardian]

Kick out the people that are labeled obese from the hospitals and healthcare system first. Since being overweight is a a causal factor in many of the leading causes of death in the us. As well as covid deaths. We should attack being over weight and put a vaccine bandaid on those people if they choose. But being overweight is a far greater issue to this country than covid. But we aren’t doing hardly anything about it. Let’s lock down in a gym

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/282929#alzheimers-disease

[Sua Sponte]

1 hour ago, ViperMan said:

I don't have a contrary opinion to the decision rendered in that case. But that's only surface-level. I didn't read it and don't really care to because it ultimately doesn't matter.

If your point is that you think our government can mandate whatever it wants because there's previously decided case law, that's a weak position from which to argue. And frankly, only dumb people will continue down a path, or justify continuing down a path that they know is wrong just because they started in that direction.

 

So, you didn’t read the opinion, yet claim it “it’s doesn’t matter” because it doesn’t fit your narrative. Suggest you go look up what stare decisis means. The only thing that’s weak is the subjective blabbering you posted stating it’s wrong because it doesn’t support your narrative/opinion.

[jazzdude]

My point is that we need to be careful about becoming too authoritarian. People can make their own choices, and they can be responsible for them.
No, healthcare is not a right. If it was, as a corollary, you would have the right to force someone else into medical school. And I know you don't have that right.

I agree with you here, and a national mandate for the general public is overly heavy handed. And both sides, republicans and democrats, grab power when they can to limit freedoms.

Healthcare is a hard problem. It's driven largely by the insurance companies, who's interest lies in making money. There's not a lot of choice people have in their insurance company, unless they make/have enough money that they'd be well off anyways. On one hand, I agree with you that healthcare is not a right. On the other hand, I'd like to think that as a country that believes we are truly exceptional, we should take care of our own and provide a safety net for our fellow citizens.

[ViperMan]

14 minutes ago, Sua Sponte said:

So, you didn’t read the opinion, yet claim it “it’s doesn’t matter” because it doesn’t fit your narrative. Suggest you go look up what stare decisis means. The only thing that’s weak is the subjective blabbering you posted stating it’s wrong because it doesn’t support your narrative/opinion.

My entire response to you was about stare decisis. I'm here to discuss ideas, not to argue with internet lawyers about who's got a bigger legal case.

[ViperMan]

2 minutes ago, jazzdude said:

I agree with you here, and a national mandate for the general public is overly heavy handed. And both sides, republicans and democrats, grab power when they can to limit freedoms.

Healthcare is a hard problem. It's driven largely by the insurance companies, who's interest lies in making money. There's not a lot of choice people have in their insurance company, unless they make/have enough money that they'd be well off anyways. On one hand, I agree with you that healthcare is not a right. On the other hand, I'd like to think that as a country that believes we are truly exceptional, we should take care of our own and provide a safety net for our fellow citizens.

Yeah, in our system, money-making is inherently tied to everything. That's just something we need to get over.

My overall and most fundamental problem, if I could state it clearly, is the externalization of cost (consequence). This always involves three parties. Two of them are engaged in the actual transaction (healthcare / patient), the third party is a bystander, which is usually you - the taxpayer. This is ultimately why I think there should be fundamental and emergency medical care widely and instantly available, but when we get into things that are services designed to remedy the consequences of a long life of poor decisions, I fall off the wagon.

1. Student loans (school / student)
2. Healthcare (hospital / patient)
3. Homelessness (CDC / renters)

It's everywhere. If we could remove the third party from the transaction, we'd actually get people to put their skin back in the game (which is a decent book) and a lot of this would work itself out, since people tend to be the best judges of what risk they're willing to accept. In a lot of these cases this means pulling the government out of the equation. In some, it means keeping them involved, but changing their function.

[brabus]

12 hours ago, pawnman said:

Because it doesn't matter what percentage isn't in the ICU.  What matters is that ICU capacity has been overrun.  There's no more room for cancer patients, car accident victims, someone who had a stroke, someone recovering from heart surgery...because people decided that they weren't going to take a vaccine that over a billion other people have already taken for ideological reasons, not for rational or medical reasons.

It does matter. And another thing that matters to this specific article that was left out - staffing shortages. It’s not a literal bed/equipment shortage in many places, it’s a shortage of staffing. This has been a problem all over the country; so interesting that so many health workers have been laid off over the past year. Yet, such significant CFs as this are swept under the rug because the only thing being currently sold is the “pandemic of the unvaccinated,” which is complete bullshit. That is not to say there aren’t obese people with diabetes refusing to get the vaccine and ending up in the ICU (they should get the vaccine), but they are not the only people in the ICU. Remember that MA study the CDC conducted that I brought up where 75% of the ICU COVID patients were vaccinated…no you probably don’t remember, because you block absolutely everything out of your brain that doesn’t conform to your holier-than-thou opinion, even when it’s irrefutable data from credible sources. 

[Negatory]

1 hour ago, Guardian said:

Kick out the people that are labeled obese from the hospitals and healthcare system first. Since being overweight is a a causal factor in many of the leading causes of death in the us. As well as covid deaths. We should attack being over weight and put a vaccine bandaid on those people if they choose. But being overweight is a far greater issue to this country than covid. But we aren’t doing hardly anything about it. Let’s lock down in a gym

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/282929#alzheimers-disease

I would unironically support a tax deduction if you could prove a certain level of cardiovascular health and weight/BMI. Or hell, just increase taxes on unhealthy folks. Why not? Being healthy means you won't cost the government as much from an actuarial perspective, and it incentivizes good behavior for society. You can still do what you want, it's just a luxury tax to be an unhealthy uninformed person.

Just like vaccinated folks will, per capita, not cost the government as much. You've convinced me the solution is to just give tax breaks to folks for being vaccinated.

[Negatory]

2 hours ago, brabus said:

It does matter. And another thing that matters to this specific article that was left out - staffing shortages. It’s not a literal bed/equipment shortage in many places, it’s a shortage of staffing. This has been a problem all over the country; so interesting that so many health workers have been laid off over the past year. Yet, such significant CFs as this are swept under the rug because the only thing being currently sold is the “pandemic of the unvaccinated,” which is complete bullshit.

More feelings and anecdotal evidence. Or maybe you should consider that having to care for folks that won't care for themselves - by and large the unvaccinated - drive unsustainable work schedules and made 30% of the healthcare force - and by the way, up to 48% of ICU workers - consider quitting in the last year! There is absolutely no evidence that doctors not being hired or being fired because they can't comply with hospital mandates is even close to that effect. In fact, firings are literally just starting now, which would drive almost no effect on these ICU shortages. Prove me wrong.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/31/covid-is-driving-an-exodus-among-health-care-workers.html

Here's some more data for you to address some of your other points. In the South 25-40% of state ICUs are COVID-19 patients. Here's two articles, the second of which says that nationwide it's 28% of ICU beds. Which is a huge portion of ICU surge capability - i.e. it is basically taking all of it.

https://www.benefitspro.com/2021/08/12/10-states-where-covid-19-has-filled-the-hospital-icu-beds-412-119893/?slreturn=20210809204237

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/569368-three-quarters-of-icu-beds-across-country-are-full

Onto your next fallacy.

2 hours ago, brabus said:

Remember that MA study the CDC conducted that I brought up where 75% of the ICU COVID patients were vaccinated…no you probably don’t remember, because you block absolutely everything out of your brain that doesn’t conform to your holier-than-thou opinion, even when it’s irrefutable data from credible sources. 

This one made me laugh. @brabusI will try to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you aren't just trying to straight up lie here, and instead you're forgetting your sources. But I can tell you misinterpreted the study when you read it. The actual study you quoted wasn't talking about ICU patients at all and only ever talked about positive infections. Which by the way, in a highly vaccinated society, even with breakthroughs, you can easily get to a point where the majority of infections are in the vaccinated population. You're falling for a standard base rate fallacy, which is pretty standard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_rate_fallacy

Here's your quoted study that you are saying we don't read. Well, ironically, you are the one that needs to read it.

On 9/4/2021 at 5:50 AM, brabus said:

1. CDC study on MA 3-17 Jul:

- 74% of cases occurred in fully vaccinated persons

- Among this group, 5 people were hospitalized. 4 were vaccinated, aged 20-70, and 2 of those had underlying med conditions. 1 was unvaccinated, age 50-59, and had multiple med conditions

- CDC: “Delta infection resulted in similarly high SARS-CoV-2 viral loads in vaccinated and unvaccinated people.”

To be 100% clear, that study never, ever, talks about ICU rates. I've included it for your reading. And the CDC maintains that vaccination provides overwhelming protection against hospitalization and ICU admittance - just not simple infection.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7031e2.htm

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7034e1.htm

For the record, there is no state, city, county, or other area in America right now where a majority of COVID ICU patients are vaccinated. That is a bold, ridiculous, honestly stupid claim. In reality, in places where ICU beds fill up with COVID folks, they are almost entirely with unvaccinated folks.

https://www.wabi.tv/2021/08/26/maines-icu-beds-fill-up-covid-surge-continues/

Here's the most recent study that shows that in a relatively vaccinated area, LA, 90% of ICU beds for folks with COVID were entirely unvaccinated individuals. 84% of hospitalizations were entirely unvaccinated. And 85% of deaths were unvaccinated. LA, for the record, has 59% of it's population fully vaccinated, with 66% having at least one dose. That means that 34% of the population - those who are unvaccinated - make up 84-90% of medical interventions that go to the level of admittance up to an ICU bed. 

https://data.news-leader.com/covid-19-vaccine-tracker/california/los-angeles-county/06037/

Tell me. Does any of this matter?

Edited September 10, 2021 by Negatory
Mistype

[Guardian]

How do you drop a virtual mic?

[dream big]

Story time.  I had the privilege (or curse?) of being a deployed commander when the vaccine rolled out.  I stood first in line with my SEL to get it along with a handful others (I’m very right of center yet pro vaccine, weird I know...  At first contact, only about 32% of our Sq (mostly pilots - just a datapoint), got it.  We did legitimately try to educate folks and got that number up to 50+.

The turning point however, was discussion of our trip home.  In order to stay off base in our foreign country fuel stop, we had to get MAJCOM A3 approval, and getting to that would mean only the vaccinated would be able to enjoy said privilege.  So we decided to send those who chose not the be vaccinated home via rotator.

When this became public knowledge; dudes were standing in line to be vaccinated.  All but 3/90+ folks got the vaccine - mostly so they could party after a long deployment. 
 

Morale of the story? Non vaccinated folks are not necessarily driven by the convictions they preach, one could argue? Maybe, maybe not.  At the end of the day, we didn’t call them non vaccers or science deniers or demean them.  They saw the inherent advantage and got the shot.  At the same time, the DOD smartly removed the mask mandate for those vaccinated and more people got the shot. Walking back on that was arguably the stupidest thing the DOD and POTUS have done apart from recent events in Afghanistan.

You want more people vaccinated? Don’t insult them, incentivize it.  Appeal to human nature.  No one falls in line when you demean and insult them. 

[busdriver]

1 hour ago, dream big said:

No one falls in line when you demean and insult them. 

This was the underlying message in the ACLU position from just last year stating that vaccine mandates were not a good idea.  Ironic that their twitter monkeys have been preaching about mandates of late.

[pcola]

Here's the most recent study that shows that in a relatively vaccinated area, LA, 90% of ICU beds for folks with COVID were entirely unvaccinated individuals. 84% of hospitalizations were entirely unvaccinated. And 85% of deaths were unvaccinated. LA, for the record, has 59% of it's population fully vaccinated, with 66% having at least one dose. That means that 34% of the population - those who are unvaccinated - make up 84-90% of medical interventions that go to the level of admittance up to an ICU bed. 

Tell me. Does any of this matter?

But how many of those unvaccinated people would be in the ICU if they’d made more healthy life choices prior to their choice to not get an experimental vaccine? If they weren’t obese/diabetic/heart disease/etc due to an unhealthy diet promoted for decades by the USDA and immensely influential corporate entities, would their vaccine status matter as much? We should always look beyond first-order effects.


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

[brabus]

@NegatorySo in spirit of attempting to have rational/unemotional conversation, here’s why I think much of this discussion is just stuck in a luftberry - we (and others on here) actually agree there are a lot of people in this country who should get the vaccine, and that by not getting it they are hurting others…filling up ICU beds, etc. There’s actually no argument there from me or a lot of other so-called-“anti-vaxxers”…what the discussion really should focus on so we’re not talking past each other is two-fold. The vaccination necessity for low risk people (<50, no underlying medical conditions, have natural immunity), especially with consideration to what the vaccine actually accomplished for that group, and the more difficult/subjective discussion of liberty, federal overreach, etc…where’s the line for “you do you.” When people just scream about “but muh ICU is full and it’s every unvax’d person’s fault!” or “the fuck I will get the jab…now back to my 15th slurpee and Big Mac for the week” there is no real conversation, because while there may shreds of truth/honest sentiment in statements, they are just pieces, not the entire picture, and it becomes a discussion based on omission of facts and not the whole enchilada. 

[pawnman]

3 hours ago, pcola said:

But how many of those unvaccinated people would be in the ICU if they’d made more healthy life choices prior to their choice to not get an experimental vaccine? If they weren’t obese/diabetic/heart disease/etc due to an unhealthy diet promoted for decades by the USDA and immensely influential corporate entities, would their vaccine status matter as much? We should always look beyond first-order effects.


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

So we're telling people not to make one health choice based on others not making different health choices?

Getting the vaccine is 15 minutes out of your day.  Losing a hundred pounds will take someone months.

[gearhog]

Clinicaltrials.gov.

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04460703?term=COVID-19+messaging&draw=2&rank=12

Persuasive Messages for COVID-19 Vaccine Uptake: a Randomized Controlled Trial, Part 1

Guilt, Embarassment, Anger, Trust, Cowardice.

Edited September 10, 2021 by torqued

[Guest]

On 9/9/2021 at 7:46 AM, torqued said:

Apologies for the consecutive posts, but things are happening fast.

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/1667751

 

Nah dude post away. I created this thread and give you dual thumbs up for you to continue contributing on topic information/discussion.

[Guest]

On 9/9/2021 at 10:30 AM, Sua Sponte said:

Buddy of mine at Macdill had his neck surgery cancelled twice due to lack of available ICU’s in Florida due to COVID patients.

Maybe if their physicians prescribed those patients with ivermectin, vitamins, hydroxycloroquine (zelenko protocol) at the primary care level then they would have not ended up in the ICU to begin with. It's almost as if we should treat a virus with anti-virals.