DosXX Posted September 30, 2021 Posted September 30, 2021 On 9/30/2021 at 2:53 PM, glockenspiel said: We want to avoid hospitalization and death- that is the important thing, not total “cases”. I thought the purpose of the vaccine now was to reduce symptoms? Expand That is the purpose for the individual but not for the public; again from a public health standpoint cases matter as well because the r0 is 5-9 people so every case is potentially more hospitalizations or deaths. Total cases is directly correlated with hospitalizations and deaths.
glockenspiel Posted September 30, 2021 Posted September 30, 2021 On 9/30/2021 at 3:54 PM, DosXX said: They can still get COVID again given sufficient time, but even if that wasn't true there is no way of knowing who has natural immunity and who doesn't in a practical enough matter to prevent the deaths public health policies are trying to prevent. In other words, even if you as an individual have natural immunity, that fact is irrelevant when considering public health policies (like mandatory vaccination). Hope that is clear enough. Also, here's a study showing a third of COVID cases don't produce protective antibodies, so even if we had something like antibody cards you could still pose a health risk to others. https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/27/9/21-1042_article Expand 1/3 of 72 people is pretty limited data…. so if I understand correctly, a PCR is good enough to count as a “case” but not natural immunity…? Why is a test result any more difficult to provide than a vax card?
DosXX Posted September 30, 2021 Posted September 30, 2021 On 9/30/2021 at 11:27 AM, Lord Ratner said: That argument died when a highly effective vaccine was offered to the entire at-risk population free of charge. Expand Tbh I'm privy to this argument as a compromise. I'd be in favor of eliminating all public health mandates as long as all unvaccinated were denied medical services (absent any exceptions) relating to COVID. It's against the spirit of the health profession though so it would never happen.
DosXX Posted September 30, 2021 Posted September 30, 2021 On 9/30/2021 at 4:40 PM, glockenspiel said: Why is a test result any more difficult to provide than a vax card? Expand I wouldn't say it's more difficult, just less accurate. A test confirming natural immunity would only be 66% accurate or less since a third of cases don't produce antibodies, whereas with a vaccine it's guaranteed.
VMFA187 Posted September 30, 2021 Posted September 30, 2021 On 9/30/2021 at 4:46 PM, DosXX said: Tbh I'm privy to this argument as a compromise. I'd be in favor of eliminating all public health mandates as long as all unvaccinated were denied medical services (absent any exceptions) relating to COVID. It's against the spirit of the health profession though so it would never happen. Expand Let's deny all obese people medical care that is related to their choices too - I'm down! 3
glockenspiel Posted September 30, 2021 Posted September 30, 2021 On 9/30/2021 at 4:46 PM, DosXX said: Tbh I'm privy to this argument as a compromise. I'd be in favor of eliminating all public health mandates as long as all unvaccinated were denied medical services (absent any exceptions) relating to COVID. It's against the spirit of the health profession though so it would never happen. Expand Jesus Christ… that is insane. Hope no one trusts their life to you ever. How can you be so convinced that this vax is for everyone? 1
DosXX Posted September 30, 2021 Posted September 30, 2021 On 9/30/2021 at 4:55 PM, glockenspiel said: Jesus Christ… that is insane. Hope no one trusts their life to you ever. How can you be so convinced that this vax is for everyone? Expand It's definitely not, that's why I said "absent any exceptions"
jazzdude Posted September 30, 2021 Posted September 30, 2021 On 9/30/2021 at 4:54 PM, VMFA187 said: Let's deny all obese people medical care that is related to their choices too - I'm down!Let's deny medical treatment for alcohol related incidents-it's their choice to partake, so why should I have to pay for their drunken stupidity...
HeloDude Posted September 30, 2021 Posted September 30, 2021 On 9/30/2021 at 4:46 PM, DosXX said: Tbh I'm privy to this argument as a compromise. I'd be in favor of eliminating all public health mandates as long as all unvaccinated were denied medical services (absent any exceptions) relating to COVID. It's against the spirit of the health profession though so it would never happen. Expand How about we remove government regulations from healthcare all together and allow people and those in healthcare decide who they want to treat and who they don’t, at what cost, etc? Because if you’re proposing that those who are unvaccinated not be allowed medical care for COVID, then why should medical folks provide care for HIV, overdoses, etc to those who use drugs? Why allow those who are not married be treated for STDs? This is what happens when you pick and choose. This is also why I’m against shared healthcare expenses, forcing insurance companies to except pre-existing conditions, etc.—healthy and responsible people have to shoulder the financial burden for those who are not. And before some of the progressives on here bring their emotional counterarguments, nothing would prohibit you from voluntarily giving money and/or providing care to those you want to help. 1 2
HeloDude Posted September 30, 2021 Posted September 30, 2021 On 9/30/2021 at 5:01 PM, jazzdude said: On 9/30/2021 at 4:54 PM, VMFA187 said: Let's deny all obese people medical care that is related to their choices too - I'm down! Expand Let's deny medical treatment for alcohol related incidents-it's their choice to partake, so why should I have to pay for their drunken stupidity... Expand I definitely agree! Sadly I don’t think that you would support such a measure…or maybe you would?
DosXX Posted September 30, 2021 Posted September 30, 2021 On 9/30/2021 at 5:03 PM, HeloDude said: Because if you’re proposing that those who are unvaccinated not be allowed medical care for COVID, then why should medical folks provide care for HIV, overdoses, etc to those who use drugs? Why allow those who are not married be treated for STDs? This is what happens when you pick and choose. Expand Same argument I'll repeat. Those things affect an individual, and don't spread exponentially to others overloading the health system.
HeloDude Posted September 30, 2021 Posted September 30, 2021 On 9/30/2021 at 5:07 PM, DosXX said: Same argument I'll repeat. Those things affect an individual, and don't spread exponentially to others overloading the health system. Expand So the argument that those who are unvaccinated and have to go to the hospital for covid and are taking up a bed/patient care (and thus potentially limited a bed/patient care for a different person with a non-covid silent) is 100% not a valid argument as to why someone should get the shot?
Lockjaw Posted September 30, 2021 Posted September 30, 2021 On 9/30/2021 at 5:07 PM, DosXX said: Same argument I'll repeat. Those things affect an individual, and don't spread exponentially to others overloading the health system. Expand Yes and no. They don't spread exponentially but they without a doubt affect others - and in some cases can spread. If you really think there is only impact on an individual for any of those items, I'd be happy to share many tales proving otherwise from my days in EMS. 2
Lord Ratner Posted September 30, 2021 Posted September 30, 2021 On 9/30/2021 at 4:46 PM, DosXX said: Tbh I'm privy to this argument as a compromise. I'd be in favor of eliminating all public health mandates as long as all unvaccinated were denied medical services (absent any exceptions) relating to COVID. It's against the spirit of the health profession though so it would never happen. Expand As long as smokers, obese people, and high-impact athletes are similarly excluded from coverage, you've got my vote. 1 1
DosXX Posted September 30, 2021 Posted September 30, 2021 (edited) On 9/30/2021 at 5:20 PM, Lockjaw said: If you really think there is only impact on an individual for any of those items, I'd be happy to share many tales proving otherwise from my days in EMS. Expand You're reducing my argument to something I don't agree with. I specified exponential and hospital overloading for a reason, none of those things do that. Not to mention even if they did they don't have a readily available cure/vax/etc you could take. I don't want anyone to die of COVID, and certainly not a policy I would want to happen. This is just a compromise I am willing to accept for the libertarians who want no public health mandates. Edited September 30, 2021 by DosXX
VMFA187 Posted September 30, 2021 Posted September 30, 2021 On 9/30/2021 at 5:07 PM, DosXX said: Same argument I'll repeat. Those things affect an individual, and don't spread exponentially to others overloading the health system. Expand They absolutely do affect others by limiting access to healthcare because our healthcare system is overwhelmed by people with diseases that are self-caused.
DosXX Posted September 30, 2021 Posted September 30, 2021 On 9/30/2021 at 6:05 PM, VMFA187 said: They absolutely do affect others by limiting access to healthcare because our healthcare system is overwhelmed by people with diseases that are self-caused. Expand There are still significant differences that affect my opinion on it but I'll accept the extension just for the sake of not derailing the thread
pawnman Posted September 30, 2021 Posted September 30, 2021 On 9/30/2021 at 6:05 PM, VMFA187 said: They absolutely do affect others by limiting access to healthcare because our healthcare system is overwhelmed by people with diseases that are self-caused. Expand Like Covid?
pawnman Posted September 30, 2021 Posted September 30, 2021 On 9/30/2021 at 4:54 PM, VMFA187 said: Let's deny all obese people medical care that is related to their choices too - I'm down! Expand I can't get obese by being in a room with an obese person. I can get covid by being in a room with someone who has covid. See the difference?
Lord Ratner Posted September 30, 2021 Posted September 30, 2021 On 9/30/2021 at 7:00 PM, pawnman said: I can't get obese by being in a room with an obese person. I can get covid by being in a room with someone who has covid. See the difference? Expand Again, valid until the vaccine came out. Now you can take free steps to protect yourself.
pawnman Posted September 30, 2021 Posted September 30, 2021 On 9/30/2021 at 7:07 PM, Lord Ratner said: Again, valid until the vaccine came out. Now you can take free steps to protect yourself. Expand Except that even having taken the vaccine...I'm still at risk of all the unvaccinated people piled into the hospitals. If I get into a car accident, and there's no available beds...I could easily die in the waiting room. And people want to keep bringing up "obesity" doing the same thing...hospitals were not overrun with obese people in February of 2020. They weren't denying care due to obese people occupying every available ICU bed. They weren't shipping people across state lines because obese people were sucking up all available resources. 1
BashiChuni Posted September 30, 2021 Posted September 30, 2021 On 9/30/2021 at 7:10 PM, pawnman said: Except that even having taken the vaccine...I'm still at risk of all the unvaccinated people piled into the hospitals. If I get into a car accident, and there's no available beds...I could easily die in the waiting room. And people want to keep bringing up "obesity" doing the same thing...hospitals were not overrun with obese people in February of 2020. They weren't denying care due to obese people occupying every available ICU bed. They weren't shipping people across state lines because obese people were sucking up all available resources. Expand
pawnman Posted September 30, 2021 Posted September 30, 2021 On 9/30/2021 at 8:06 PM, BashiChuni said: Expand So...15%. And out of what denominator? If 100% of the population were vaccinated, 100% of covid deaths would be from vaccinated people. This statistic isn't helpful without the vaccination rates. 1
Negatory Posted September 30, 2021 Posted September 30, 2021 (edited) On 9/30/2021 at 2:22 PM, pawnman said: One more time with the Kentucky study that shows you're more than twice as likely to get reinfected without the vaccine as you are with it...your "natural immunity" is not as good as the vaccine. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e1.htm Expand I think you’re misreading this one; I used to believe the same. That study doesn’t compare vaccinated infection rates to infection rates of those who recovered from COVID. It looks only at people who recovered from COVID: it compares people who recovered from COVID in 2020 and were unvaxed to people who recovered from COVID in 2020 and were vaxed. It showed that vaccines help even those who had the disease already. But it doesn’t show what you said. There are actual cited studies on here that show that natural immunity is potentially more effective against the virus than pure vaccination. I think somewhere it was like 5-10x as effective as vaccination, actually, for a time period. It has been posted here. Now there are other factors we can discuss, such as almost a third of Covid infections not resulting in effective antibodies, or natural immunity fading significantly faster than vaccination, but let’s be specific. https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/27/9/21-1042_article https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6947a2.htm Edited September 30, 2021 by Negatory
Recommended Posts