Covid Injection Tyranny - Share and Discuss

[BashiChuni]

[glockenspiel]

2 hours ago, Pooter said:

The decision to impose a mandate should be a very carefully considered one, and IMO you really only have grounds for a mandate if you can answer "yes" to the following questions:

1. Does the disease in question pose a grave threat?

2. Does the vaccine do an extremely good job of protecting people and preventing transmission?

3. Is the vaccine safe?

 

So far those answers seem to be:

1. Only for very specific demographics

2. Yes and no

3. Probably  

 

These are very shaky grounds for a mandate especially considering the second widespread variant of this disease we encountered was able to take most of our vaccination assumptions and throw them in the dumpster.  But as usual, Democrats want to jump to telling people what to do.  It is their default state--using government coercion to solve perceived problems.  
 

But they always fail to take human nature into the equation.  When you censor something it'll just make it more popular. When you say everyone has to do something, some people are going to not do it just because you.  And I love that. Do I still think it's a bad risk calculation not to get the vaccine? Yes.  But we really really really need to figure out as a society a way to have the emotional maturity to hold two thoughts in our brains at the same time:

-Getting the vaccine is a good idea

-Trying to Force it on people is a very bad idea

 

If COVID19 were a grave threat to all and the vaccine worked well, you wouldn’t have to mandate it…

[Pooter]

12 hours ago, glockenspiel said:

If COVID19 were a grave threat to all and the vaccine worked well, you wouldn’t have to mandate it…

Right.. because everyone has behaved completely rationally for the last year and a half. 

[Skitzo]

If COVID19 were a grave threat to all and the vaccine worked well, you wouldn’t have to mandate it…

The data coming from Alex Berensons latest interview on Joe Rogan was pretty damning on the subject.

We need boosters apparently.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Guest]

Someone please send my above post to @Pooter and @Prozac. I wish them to join us in conversation! 🤠They're missing out.

[ClearedHot]

Here is how poorly the mandate is being managed...in the words of the folks I talked to at Robins AFB, it has turned into a witch hunt. 

They are actively mandating EVERYONE get the vaccine regardless of circumstance including those with established December and January separation dates.  Take the shot or be extended, subject to UCMJ and change class of discharge.

Numerous other retiring folks at Robins with established terminal dates starting within the next few days have been told, get the jab or retirement is delayed, UCMJ and change class of discharge. 

I've been vaccinated but don't believe in mandates....this is pure lunacy going after these folks.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, ClearedHot said:

Here is how poorly the mandate is being managed...in the words of the folks I talked to at Robins AFB, it has turned into a witch hunt. 

They are actively mandating EVERYONE get the vaccine regardless of circumstance including those with established December and January separation dates.  Take the shot or be extended, subject to UCMJ and change class of discharge.

Numerous other retiring folks at Robins with established terminal dates starting within the next few days have been told, get the jab or retirement is delayed, UCMJ and change class of discharge. 

I've been vaccinated but don't believe in mandates....this is pure lunacy going after these folks.

That's nuts, but par for the course for the covid-crazies. What will you be doing about it? Will you speak up? 

[VMFA187]

That is the problem. There is no allowable gray area - Strictly black and white. This is almost solely because of the White House and how they've handled this. 

If you've had covid and have the anti-bodies, per the Israeli study of over 2 million people who were either vaccinated or caught covid, those with natural anti-bodies were between 6 and 13 times less likely to get covid a second time than the vaccinated were likely to catch it. Why should they be forced to get the vaccine?

Additionally, medical exemptions are being treated as anything such with the only available exemption, at least in California, being that you have had a documented adverse reaction to an ingredient in the vaccine. The California Medical Board sent out letters to all California certified physicians stating such and informing the physicians that any who disobeyed would face possible loss of licensure. 

I presented my employer, a major defense contractor, a German study that showed a 4% increase in occurrence and/or severity for seizures for those diagnosed with epilepsy and was told that doesn't qualify for an exemption and I just recovered from covid last week and have demonstrated anti-bodies. 

[glockenspiel]

2 hours ago, Pooter said:

Right.. because everyone has behaved completely rationally for the last year and a half. 

Let’s not soil personal bodily autonomy for the individual over some else’s prior irrational behavior. 

Also, I generally agree with your earlier sentiment but toss in a bit more skepticism:

-the BionTech-Pfizer vaccine may be a good idea for some people to take

Point being, everyone has a different situation and risk factors. One size likely doesn’t fit all.

[Lord Ratner]

2 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

Here is how poorly the mandate is being managed...in the words of the folks I talked to at Robins AFB, it has turned into a witch hunt. 

They are actively mandating EVERYONE get the vaccine regardless of circumstance including those with established December and January separation dates.  Take the shot or be extended, subject to UCMJ and change class of discharge.

Numerous other retiring folks at Robins with established terminal dates starting within the next few days have been told, get the jab or retirement is delayed, UCMJ and change class of discharge. 

I've been vaccinated but don't believe in mandates....this is pure lunacy going after these folks.

Kinda fun finding out how many people are simply concerned with the authority to control others in a society, isn't it? Compliance is the only discernable goal.

[Sim]

https://www.theepochtimes.com/over-12000-air-force-personnel-poised-not-to-meet-covid-19-vaccine-mandate-deadline_4059907.html

 

Quote

Over 12,000 Air Force Personnel Poised Not to Meet COVID-19 Vaccine Mandate Deadline

 

[Negatory]

I have officially come full circle based on data. I not sure if I still support current vaccination efforts. All of this data I found - wasn’t given to me by a biased news source.

1) COVID spread is unimpeded by vaccination within months. Numerous studies show that:

You’ll see that for those age 40-80+, vaccinated folks actually were MORE likely to have the virus.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1022238/Vaccine_surveillance_report_-_week_39.pdf

Source: UK health surveillance. You can look at last week or the next week as well. This is not cherry picked - the data shows the same numbers multiple weeks in a row. Check out the other weeks, you’ll see similar data.

2nd Source: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02689-y

 

2) The rate of hospitalization and death is similar to that of the flu. No shit. And I used to make fun of everyone who said that.

COVID hospitalizations:

COVID Deaths

Source: same as above

CDC data on flu hospitalizations/mortality per 100k (couldn’t crop it well on mobile):

Source: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2017-2018.htm

 

So for an average person age 18-49, your risk of hospitalization for COVID is somewhere in the realm of 15-20 per 100000. For 2017-18 flu, the hospitalization rate for that age group was nearly twice as high at 36 per 100000. For death of those 18-49, its maybe twice as bad for Covid, around 2 per 100k, whereas flu was only 0.8. I am starting to lose any motivation to continue vaccination efforts whatsoever for those that are not at risk.

It doesn’t and won’t provide herd immunity. And people without risk factors that are normal ages don’t need it.

The counterpoint will be that it’s for the old. Well, first of all, that counterpoint is already invalid because getting the COVID vaccine as a 40 year old male does literally nothing to protect the old as it has been demonstrated to have virtually no effect on transmission after a few months. So a mandate for those under 50 I think still makes 0 sense.

 

But let’s look at it for those 50+. Hospitalization rate for COVID for those 50+ is on the order of 80-100 per 100000. For 17-18 flu for those over 50 it was on the order of 500+ per 100000. Wtf. For deaths, COVID is on the order of 80 per 100000. Flu was slightly lower, maybe 50 per 100000. But they are way closer than initially thought.

BL: COVID actually has turned into nothing more than a bad flu. And a bad flu that is actually easier on children than the actual bad flu. It’s not even a hyperbole. And we’re discussing additional mandatory boosters for healthy folks age 0-30. Just wanted to say that the data has changed my mind, significantly. It’s actually almost maddening.

[Negatory]

I have been thinking about it and the difference is the infectivity or R0. COVID is significantly more infectious, maybe an order of magnitude higher.

So from an individual risk perspective, it’s not significantly worse than the flu.

But the total number of infections, hospitalizations, and deaths will be an order of magnitude higher.

Still don’t think that justifies mandates necessarily.

[Sim]

20 minutes ago, Negatory said:

hospitalizations, and deaths will be an order of magnitude higher.

Deaths would be near zero if media and our government (sponsored by Big Pharma) didn't suppress things like zelenko protocol or other methods.  But there is no money in that so here we are... our immune system is turned into a subscription service.    

[BashiChuni]

Prepare for the boosters

[ViperMan]

7 hours ago, Negatory said:

I have officially come full circle based on data. I not sure if I still support current vaccination efforts. All of this data I found - wasn’t given to me by a biased news source.

1) COVID spread is unimpeded by vaccination within months. Numerous studies show that:

You’ll see that for those age 40-80+, vaccinated folks actually were MORE likely to have the virus.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1022238/Vaccine_surveillance_report_-_week_39.pdf

Source: UK health surveillance. You can look at last week or the next week as well. This is not cherry picked - the data shows the same numbers multiple weeks in a row. Check out the other weeks, you’ll see similar data.

2nd Source: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02689-y

 

2) The rate of hospitalization and death is similar to that of the flu. No shit. And I used to make fun of everyone who said that.

COVID hospitalizations:

COVID Deaths

Source: same as above

CDC data on flu hospitalizations/mortality per 100k (couldn’t crop it well on mobile):

Source: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2017-2018.htm

 

So for an average person age 18-49, your risk of hospitalization for COVID is somewhere in the realm of 15-20 per 100000. For 2017-18 flu, the hospitalization rate for that age group was nearly twice as high at 36 per 100000. For death of those 18-49, its maybe twice as bad for Covid, around 2 per 100k, whereas flu was only 0.8. I am starting to lose any motivation to continue vaccination efforts whatsoever for those that are not at risk.

It doesn’t and won’t provide herd immunity. And people without risk factors that are normal ages don’t need it.

The counterpoint will be that it’s for the old. Well, first of all, that counterpoint is already invalid because getting the COVID vaccine as a 40 year old male does literally nothing to protect the old as it has been demonstrated to have virtually no effect on transmission after a few months. So a mandate for those under 50 I think still makes 0 sense.

 

But let’s look at it for those 50+. Hospitalization rate for COVID for those 50+ is on the order of 80-100 per 100000. For 17-18 flu for those over 50 it was on the order of 500+ per 100000. Wtf. For deaths, COVID is on the order of 80 per 100000. Flu was slightly lower, maybe 50 per 100000. But they are way closer than initially thought.

BL: COVID actually has turned into nothing more than a bad flu. And a bad flu that is actually easier on children than the actual bad flu. It’s not even a hyperbole. And we’re discussing additional mandatory boosters for healthy folks age 0-30. Just wanted to say that the data has changed my mind, significantly. It’s actually almost maddening.

i'm having a hard time with this post. Did you get red-pilled? Or am I confusing you with someone else on this board?

[Guardian]

There is no spoon.

[brabus]

@Negatory Sincerely, glad to see you make it to these conclusions. Now help spread the facts to those who are holding on too tight to the words of fill-in-the-blank figurehead/company with questionable motives. 

[Lord Ratner]

55 minutes ago, ViperMan said:

i'm having a hard time with this post. Did you get red-pilled? Or am I confusing you with someone else on this board?

It's not red-pilled. He just took the effort to look at the data (which has pointed towards his conclusions for over a year now) rather than trust the cherry-picked misrepresentations pushed by a large swath of the media and political class.

 

Neg usually has insightful posts. I'm more interested in his analysis as to *why* his conclusions based on easily-accessed data aren't shared by the politicians and authority figures pushing for mandates. I'm also wondering how many liberal-minded people will make the connection between misrepresentation of COVID-19 statistics and the misrepresentation of "racial equity" statistics.

[serena burton]

On 8/23/2021 at 2:28 PM, Pooter said:

Don't waste your time, this dude has proved time and time again that appeals to basic facts, statistics, and reason simply don't work on him. 
 

The vaccine is a global conspiracy pushed by a cabal of upper crust liberals, and he and newsmax bimbo Emerald Robinson are the only ones who know the truth.  After trump is reinstated as president from the election that was STOLEN from him, all will be revealed. 

no it doesn't take an intellectual giant to realize something is not right with this vaxx. they have never pushed any vaxx this hard for a virus that has no higher mortality rate the the seasonal flu and most have to be tested to even know if they have it.in fact if it weren't for the TV no one would even know there was a pandemic,yet they're giving out $200 gift cards and lottery's to entice people to take it,use some common sense.

[ViperMan]

59 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

It's not red-pilled. He just took the effort to look at the data (which has pointed towards his conclusions for over a year now) rather than trust the cherry-picked misrepresentations pushed by a large swath of the media and political class.

Neg usually has insightful posts. I'm more interested in his analysis as to *why* his conclusions based on easily-accessed data aren't shared by the politicians and authority figures pushing for mandates. I'm also wondering how many liberal-minded people will make the connection between misrepresentation of COVID-19 statistics and the misrepresentation of "racial equity" statistics.

Good question.

[Negatory]

2 hours ago, ViperMan said:

i'm having a hard time with this post. Did you get red-pilled? Or am I confusing you with someone else on this board?

I dunno. I looked at data and it didn’t align with my previous beliefs. When I looked into it more, it seemed like some of those beliefs may be incorrect. So now I’m adjusting my beliefs to fit reality.

I still believe some past beliefs were justified. I think there was evidence that the vaccine was effective from a transmission standpoint against non-Delta COVID. And initial evidence of mortality/hospitalization pointed to COVID being worse than it has been recently (1-2% mortality estimates). I am aware that some of those sources could have been biased. But even looking through that lens, I think I still support vaccination in the Dec-Apr timeframe.

What really did it for me, though, was when I was talking to one of my buddies. He is very pro vax, in the medical field as a nurse. We have often talked about anti-vax misinformation. I was pointing out some studies that said that herd immunity may be impossible with delta. And his response was not to actually engage with my points. It was to call me a conspiracy theorist idiot. It was absurd. It probably is similar to experiences you guys have had. Maybe even reminded you of experiences you’ve had talking to me on this forum lol. I hope not, because that attitude that you have to comply with the mainstream viewpoint or you are labeled an idiot is absolutely maddening.

1 hour ago, Lord Ratner said:

I'm more interested in his analysis as to *why* his conclusions based on easily-accessed data aren't shared by the politicians and authority figures pushing for mandates. I'm also wondering how many liberal-minded people will make the connection between misrepresentation of COVID-19 statistics and the misrepresentation of "racial equity" statistics.

I don’t know. I will say the Conservative branch of politics usually does themselves a disservice. They don’t usually present reputable studies. They don’t usually present data in a coherent manner. They rely too much on anecdotal evidence. I think they would have a much better time convincing moderates if they would try to craft more intellectual and less emotionally charged arguments. But, again, that’s coming from months of bias, so I’m probably missing something. I am looking at many statistics presented from “liberal” perspectives with much more scrutiny.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Negatory said:

I dunno. I looked at data and it didn’t align with my previous beliefs. When I looked into it more, it seemed like some of those beliefs may be incorrect. So now I’m adjusting my beliefs to fit reality.

I still believe some past beliefs were justified. I think there was evidence that the vaccine was effective from a transmission standpoint against non-Delta COVID. And initial evidence of mortality/hospitalization pointed to COVID being worse than it has been recently (1-2% mortality estimates). I am aware that some of those sources could have been biased. But even looking through that lens, I think I still support vaccination in the Dec-Apr timeframe.

What really did it for me, though, was when I was talking to one of my buddies. He is very pro vax, in the medical field as a nurse. We have often talked about anti-vax misinformation. I was pointing out some studies that said that herd immunity may be impossible with delta. And his response was not to actually engage with my points. It was to call me a conspiracy theorist idiot. It was absurd. It probably is similar to experiences you guys have had. Maybe even reminded you of experiences you’ve had talking to me on this forum lol. I hope not, because that attitude that you have to comply with the mainstream viewpoint or you are labeled an idiot is absolutely maddening.

I don’t know. I will say the Conservative branch of politics usually does themselves a disservice. They don’t usually present reputable studies. They don’t usually present data in a coherent manner. They rely too much on anecdotal evidence. I think they would have a much better time convincing moderates if they would try to craft more intellectual and less emotionally charged arguments. But, again, that’s coming from months of bias, so I’m probably missing something. I am looking at many statistics presented from “liberal” perspectives with much more scrutiny.

>I was pointing out some studies that said that herd immunity may be impossible with delta. And his response was not to actually engage with my points. It was to call me a conspiracy theorist idiot. It was absurd. It probably is similar to experiences you guys have had. Maybe even reminded you of experiences you’ve had talking to me on this forum lol. I hope not, because that attitude that you have to comply with the mainstream viewpoint or you are labeled an idiot is absolutely maddening.

Welcome to the club bro. Glad to have you. None of us, I promise, are against you. We love you as bros, and hate seeing the lies being told to all of us. You’ve taken a red-pill. Always strive for truth.

 

As for your comment about “conservative” using more studies instead of anecdotes. I wish we could do it, but the problem is so many studies and institutions are corrupt and bullshit. When everything is corrupted, you HAVE to trust your senses. It’s natural to do so. I wish I could pour over truly unbiased data. But when every scientist, NGO, university, government regulatory agency, is getting billions from Big Pharma. / lobbyists / whatever…. All they put out is BS.

[Prozac]

4 hours ago, Negatory said:

I dunno. I looked at data and it didn’t align with my previous beliefs. When I looked into it more, it seemed like some of those beliefs may be incorrect. So now I’m adjusting my beliefs to fit reality.

I still believe some past beliefs were justified. I think there was evidence that the vaccine was effective from a transmission standpoint against non-Delta COVID. And initial evidence of mortality/hospitalization pointed to COVID being worse than it has been recently (1-2% mortality estimates). I am aware that some of those sources could have been biased. But even looking through that lens, I think I still support vaccination in the Dec-Apr timeframe.

What really did it for me, though, was when I was talking to one of my buddies. He is very pro vax, in the medical field as a nurse. We have often talked about anti-vax misinformation. I was pointing out some studies that said that herd immunity may be impossible with delta. And his response was not to actually engage with my points. It was to call me a conspiracy theorist idiot. It was absurd. It probably is similar to experiences you guys have had. Maybe even reminded you of experiences you’ve had talking to me on this forum lol. I hope not, because that attitude that you have to comply with the mainstream viewpoint or you are labeled an idiot is absolutely maddening.

I don’t know. I will say the Conservative branch of politics usually does themselves a disservice. They don’t usually present reputable studies. They don’t usually present data in a coherent manner. They rely too much on anecdotal evidence. I think they would have a much better time convincing moderates if they would try to craft more intellectual and less emotionally charged arguments. But, again, that’s coming from months of bias, so I’m probably missing something. I am looking at many statistics presented from “liberal” perspectives with much more scrutiny.

There are batshit crazy nut jobs on both sides of this argument. As usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Given the relative bias of this forum, I usually find myself arguing a more liberal point of view here. Many of my friends and family might argue that I’m a closet conservative however. Good on you for calling out bullshit when you see it……BUT…I still think there is a good case for continuing to try and push vaccination rates up (note: does not mean I support gov mandates) even though both sides have demonstrated their ability to entrench themselves in their positions regardless of fact or reason. 

[TreeA10]

More CDC VAERS data. Kind of shocking comparing data totals through last December with all data from 1990. 

https://vaersanalysis.info/2021/10/15/vaers-summary-for-covid-19-vaccines-through-10-8-2021/