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CaptainMorgan Flight Lead

CaptainMorgan

Posted
Posted
  1.  If someone were to come to me and give me a direct order to get a covid shot, I’d tell them to their face that I don’t believe it’s a lawful order and that if they really want to directly order me, then they can put it in writing.    Then, I’ll file it away for a lawsuit.   To date, there haven’t been any takers.  
 
2.  I won’t separate   That’s giving up. It does nothing to fight the situation.  
 
3.   I object to getting the vaccine.  Yes.  There is minimal risk to our demographic and definitely not one that outweighs my religious waiver.  
 
 
 
 
 

1. I’m pretty sure that argument won’t hold up as the vaccine was mandated by SECAF, as he was directed to do by SECDEF.

2. You’re likely to be forcibly separated. Good luck.

3. Has your religious waiver been approved? I haven’t heard of one yet.


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08Dawg
08Dawg

Notice how you’re the only one responding to your own thread?

SpeedOfHeat
SpeedOfHeat

One that doesn't require you to wear a face mask to protect you from the virus that you just got 3 inoculations against? I mean, really think about that.  They're telling people with 3 shots over

frog
frog

Somewhere on the internet, there is a forum of virologists arguing about how to fly fighter aircraft. 

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HeloDude Gray Beard

HeloDude

Posted
Posted
7 hours ago, Prozac said:

That may be true, but like it or not, Texas’s and California’s economies are intertwined. You live in a country that’s half blue. You don’t have to like it, but that’s reality. I choose to take a realist’s position here and “play the game” when it comes to masking. It’s such a small sacrifice, I really fail to understand all the histrionics behind the “masks are tyranny” crowd. 

Kind of like the same rationale that requiring an ID to vote is racist…

Some people want others to mask because it’s makes them feel safer, and some people want others to show an ID because it makes them feel that the election is more secure.

So much for feelings.

pawnman Gray Beard

pawnman

Posted
Posted
7 hours ago, bennynova said:

  1.  If someone were to come to me and give me a direct order to get a covid shot, I’d tell them to their face that I don’t believe it’s a lawful order and that if they really want to directly order me, then they can put it in writing.    Then, I’ll file it away for a lawsuit.   To date, there haven’t been any takers.  
 

2.  I won’t separate   That’s giving up. It does nothing to fight the situation.  
 

3.   I object to getting the vaccine.  Yes.  There is minimal risk to our demographic and definitely not one that outweighs my religious waiver.  
 

 

 
 

 

Pretty sure SECDEF put that order in writing...

UPT-hopeful Crew Dawg

UPT-hopeful

Posted
Posted

SecDef’s order was only for FDA fully licensed shots which are currently unavailable. Service members are welcome to volunteer for EUA shots. The order cannot currently be fulfilled. The devil is in the details, as they say. 

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MCO Flight Lead

MCO

Posted
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, UPT-hopeful said:

SecDef’s order was only for FDA fully licensed shots which are currently unavailable. Service members are welcome to volunteer for EUA shots. The order cannot currently be fulfilled. The devil is in the details, as they say. 

No he just named the generic name of the shot. Its the same shot. Its like saying you wont take advil but you’ll take ibprufin because they are different.

I think people make valid points but that one seems like such a reach to me.

Edited by MCO
UPT-hopeful Crew Dawg

UPT-hopeful

Posted
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, MCO said:

No he just named the generic name of the shot. Its the same shot. Its like saying you wont take advil but you’ll take ibprufin because they are different.

The FDA labels them legally distinct. 
They may be chemically similar (or even the same), but there is more to full FDA licensure than chemicals: manufacture, storage, transportation. 
 

Legally distinct. 

Edited by UPT-hopeful
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MCO Flight Lead

MCO

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, UPT-hopeful said:

The FDA labels them legally distinct. 
They may be chemically similar (or even the same), but there is more to fill FDA licensure than chemicals: manufacture, storage, transportation. 
 

Legally distinct. 

Good luck fighting that one

UPT-hopeful Crew Dawg

UPT-hopeful

Posted
Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, MCO said:

Good luck fighting that one

That’s the whole point. Who can legally order that service members receive EUA shots?

Hint: it’s not SecDef. 

The person that legally can, hasn’t, because the events that are required for that order haven’t happened. 
 

Once FDA fully licensed shots become available in the US, EUA shots can no longer be provided (that’s a lot of money, I mean doses). Do you see where this trail leads?

Edited by UPT-hopeful
MCO Flight Lead

MCO

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, UPT-hopeful said:

That’s the whole point. Who can legally order that service members receive EUA shots?

Hint: it’s not SecDef. 

The person that legally can, hasn’t, because the events that are required for that order haven’t happened. 
 

Once FDA fully licensed shots become available in the US, EUA shots can no longer be provided (that’s a lot of money, I mean doses). Do you see where this trail leads?

It leads to semantics.

UPT-hopeful Crew Dawg

UPT-hopeful

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, MCO said:

It leads to semantics.

Words mean things. Semantics are important when dealing with legal ramifications of volunteering for a shot vs being legally ordered to receive a shot. 
 

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MCO Flight Lead

MCO

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, UPT-hopeful said:

Words mean things. Semantics are important when dealing with legal ramifications of volunteering for a shot vs being legally ordered to receive a shot. 
 

Like I’ve said, people have made decent arguments against the shot, but the Pfizer vs generic argument seems like it’s grasping for any loophole and lacks understanding of how they name vaccines and drugs. Good luck to the guys that make that their hill though.

CaptainMorgan Flight Lead

CaptainMorgan

Posted
Posted
Words mean things. Semantics are important when dealing with legal ramifications of volunteering for a shot vs being legally ordered to receive a shot. 
 

You want to press to test? I guarantee your “words mean things” argument won’t stop your admin discharge.


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UPT-hopeful Crew Dawg

UPT-hopeful

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, MCO said:

Like I’ve said, people have made decent arguments against the shot, but the Pfizer vs generic argument seems like it’s grasping for any loophole and lacks understanding of how they name vaccines and drugs. Good luck to the guys that make that their hill though.

Except this isn’t a generic vs name brand battle. You’re misunderstanding, which is okay. 
 

Emergency Use Authorization vs FDA Fully Licensed 

The SecDef memo isn’t just words on a sheet, the actual instruction piece is only one sentence. Summarized: “mandatory vaccinations will use FDA fully licensed shots”

”SMs can volunteer to take EUA shots”

UPT-hopeful Crew Dawg

UPT-hopeful

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, CaptainMorgan said:


You want to press to test? I guarantee your “words mean things” argument won’t stop your admin discharge.


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Standing by for discharge papers, but just like a fully FDA licensed shot, they haven’t appeared. 

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CaptainMorgan Flight Lead

CaptainMorgan

Posted
Posted
The FDA labels them legally distinct. 
They may be chemically similar (or even the same), but there is more to full FDA licensure than chemicals: manufacture, storage, transportation. 
 
Legally distinct. 

No they don’t. From the FDA website:
“On August 23, 2021, FDA announced the first approval of a COVID-19 vaccine. The vaccine has been known as the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine, and will now be marketed as Comirnaty, for the prevention of COVID-19 in individuals 16 years of age and older”


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UPT-hopeful Crew Dawg

UPT-hopeful

Posted
Posted
20 minutes ago, CaptainMorgan said:


No they don’t. From the FDA website:
“On August 23, 2021, FDA announced the first approval of a COVID-19 vaccine. The vaccine has been known as the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine, and will now be marketed as Comirnaty, for the prevention of COVID-19 in individuals 16 years of age and older”


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Is Comirnaty interchangeable with other COVID-19 vaccines?

Comirnaty has the same formulation as the FDA-authorized Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine and can be used interchangeably to provide the COVID-19 vaccination series without presenting any safety or effectiveness concerns. The products are legally distinct with certain differences that do not impact safety or effectiveness.
 

https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/qa-comirnaty-covid-19-vaccine-mrna
 

current as of 10/20/21

 

“safety and effectiveness the same” but still “legally distinct”

brickhistory Gray Beard

brickhistory

Posted
Posted
17 hours ago, pawnman said:

Less than 8000 are active duty. 

You sound happy about it.

8,000 decided not to follow this order.  It may or may not be legal.  That aspect is still TBD.

But 8,000 refused this order.  From only one of the services.

Think about that.

I'm sure senior DoD and USAF are not.

It's not their money and they are in the twilight of their careers, soon to be on various boards, etc.  

Screw the destruction of morale and faith in the military system.

8,000.

Prozac Gray Beard

Prozac

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, UPT-hopeful said:

Is Comirnaty interchangeable with other COVID-19 vaccines?

Comirnaty has the same formulation as the FDA-authorized Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine and can be used interchangeably to provide the COVID-19 vaccination series without presenting any safety or effectiveness concerns. The products are legally distinct with certain differences that do not impact safety or effectiveness.
 

https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/qa-comirnaty-covid-19-vaccine-mrna
 

current as of 10/20/21

 

“safety and effectiveness the same” but still “legally distinct”

So if the DOD produced some vials with the “right” label on them, would you roll up your sleeve? I’m guessing for most who have refused the vax, the answer is no….they’ll just then focus on some other nonsensical reason they shouldn’t have to take the shot. I find this whole Comirnaty argument, along with the “religious” objections to be disingenuous and inconsistent with coherent thought.
 

In fact, that’s a true statement for almost all of the objections I’ve heard, military or otherwise. It’s a vaccine. It’s not gene therapy (not even close). Comirnaty is the “same formulation” as the EUA shot. It was developed with research used by many other pharmaceutical and consumer products that have not caused religious uproar in the past. It works. It’s not 100% effective but it still makes it far less likely that you will contract, spread, or be hospitalized by Covid. Finally, due to the nature of how vaccines work (yes, including this one), it is out of your system within the matter of a few days, which makes long term issues exceedingly unlikely. 
 

Some may have legitimate religious or medical concerns. If your doctor is recommending you avoid vaccination for whatever reason, I feel for you. If you have strong religious objections, well, maybe a horse and buggy in PA, avoiding the pitfalls of modern day life is more your style. For the vast majority though, sorry, I’m waving the bullshit flag. 

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VMFA187 Gray Beard

VMFA187

Posted
Posted
12 hours ago, Clayton Bigsby said:

WTF are you talking about of California being locked down?!?  I live there, no such thing...

Only scared libs are even wearing masks anymore in San Diego. Of course they are also wearing them in their car, alone...

Blue Flight Lead

Blue

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, Negatory said:

Yep, sure have. Basic training and tech school. More to follow, probably.

https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2021-11-02/how-the-military-is-handling-troops-who-refuse-coronavirus-vaccines?context=amp

According to that article, it was two dozen from basic training, and another 17 from tech school.

Meanwhile, we're long past the initial Nov 1 deadline.

It's hard not to think that there is an element of bluffing on the part of the DoD.

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