ClearedHot Posted September 12, 2021 Posted September 12, 2021 On 9/10/2021 at 12:07 PM, Negatory said: Idealism is no reason to nitpick public policy that, by and large, does good for the public. Just like how I shouldn’t waste everyone’s time signing a waiver for my PFA to get my half marathon to count - I should just run it. Horrific argument...there is a HUGE difference between running laps to save time and forcing someone to get a vaccine that may cause harm. For the record, I believe in the vaccine, I got it X 2. That being said I thought we were supposed to follow the science? Saying that having a nuanced policy is too idealistic is a terribly lazy argument. We put 10 men on the moon, I think we can figure out a science based approach to vaccination. INHO there should be exceptions and I will use my friend "Bob" as an example. He and his wife both had COVID and are in an antibody study at the University of Houston. His wife's test results show her N series is at 29.6. His is at 123. Her spike protein was 638, his is over 2500. Both N & S are off chart. First of all neither one of them need the vaccine, second, where is the science on how people like this are impacted? If the Clown in Chief is pushing his policy that is the best for everyone, why do illegals get a pass? 7
FLEA Posted September 12, 2021 Posted September 12, 2021 11 minutes ago, ClearedHot said: Horrific argument...there is a HUGE difference between running laps to save time and forcing someone to get a vaccine that may cause harm. For the record, I believe in the vaccine, I got it X 2. That being said I thought we were supposed to follow the science? Saying that having a nuanced policy is too idealistic is a terribly lazy argument. We put 10 men on the moon, I think we can figure out a science based approach to vaccination. INHO there should be exceptions and I will use my friend "Bob" as an example. He and his wife both had COVID and are in an antibody study at the University of Houston. His wife's test results show her N series is at 29.6. His is at 123. Her spike protein was 638, his is over 2500. Both N & S are off chart. First of all neither one of them need the vaccine, second, where is the science on how people like this are impacted? If the Clown in Chief is pushing his policy that is the best for everyone, why do illegals get a pass? Didn't even attempt to answer the last question. The more the administration evades answering concerns like these the more suspicion people will generate that something is being hidden from them. What are we to make of this? Refugees from Afghanistan were required to be vaccinated when processed so I'm told. They received MMR, polio and COVID if they didn't have it. So why is that policy not applying to refugees from the southern border? What people who are pro vaccine mandate don't understand is that this isn't an issue about safety or efficacy it's an issue about trust from an administration that is historically opaque and evasive with its intents. 2 1
gearhog Posted September 12, 2021 Posted September 12, 2021 (edited) To address the arguments related to COVID hospitalizations and statistics: If I were to argue that the numbers have been manipulated to serve a desired end, instead of an appropriate end, would you immediately call it conspiracy theory? You'd be half correct. Here is video evidence of hospital staff conspiring, but it's not a theory. Is this the process by which other hospitals generate their COVID numbers? I don't have the answer, but the probability is not zero. Despicable. These are the numbers people rely on to generate an appropriate response, and they're being f'd with. The video: https://twitter.com/speaakn2/status/1436553883829121030?s=20 An article that provides some context and an insufficient explanation by the hospital: https://www.wbtv.com/2021/09/10/novant-health-issues-statement-leaked-internal-discussion-covid-19-patient-numbers/ Edited September 12, 2021 by torqued 1 1
glockenspiel Posted September 12, 2021 Posted September 12, 2021 37 minutes ago, torqued said: To address the arguments related to COVID hospitalizations and statistics: If I were to argue that the numbers have been manipulated to serve a desired end, instead of an appropriate end, would you immediately call it conspiracy theory? You'd be half correct. Here is video evidence of hospital staff conspiring, but it's not a theory. Is this the process by which other hospitals generate their COVID numbers? I don't have the answer, but the probability is not zero. Despicable. These are the numbers people rely on to generate an appropriate response, and they're being f'd with. The video: https://twitter.com/speaakn2/status/1436553883829121030?s=20 An article that provides some context and an insufficient explanation by the hospital: https://www.wbtv.com/2021/09/10/novant-health-issues-statement-leaked-internal-discussion-covid-19-patient-numbers/ Jesus help us— I mean Fauci help us. There is only one truth— the CV19 Vaccine. It is for EVERYONE. There are only two groups in this world, the vaccinated (pure) and the unaxxed (unclean). There is only one way to save lives! 1
NKAWTG Posted September 12, 2021 Posted September 12, 2021 3 hours ago, FLEA said: So why is that policy not applying to refugees from the southern border? Because the Afgahn refugees are using the established legal process in applying for asylum. The economic migrants entering on the southern boarder are doing so illegally, and/or exploiting loopholes in the asylum process to remain indefinitely. 2
Negatory Posted September 12, 2021 Posted September 12, 2021 17 hours ago, dogfish78 said: Don't try to talk law to me, you're bad at it; plus you don't have a J.D. (Hint: I do). Oh yeah? Well since we’re on the internet, I thought you should know about my PhD in Abortionology, so really you shouldn’t talk about that anymore until you get back to school. 1
Negatory Posted September 12, 2021 Posted September 12, 2021 17 hours ago, dogfish78 said: TBH it's kinda gay and suspicious that you made your pro-infanticide statement about me wanting to enforce my will on women (as if acting to prevent infanticide is that). Dude...... stop simping for women. And if you wanna take this offline - me and my wife have had 2 abortions for unplanned high risk pregnancies after contraceptives failed. So go ahead and judge me however you wish. (This is where I got my PhD, they give them out at the Doctor after you pay) 1
Negatory Posted September 12, 2021 Posted September 12, 2021 5 hours ago, ClearedHot said: Horrific argument...there is a HUGE difference between running laps to save time and forcing someone to get a vaccine that may cause harm. For the record, I believe in the vaccine, I got it X 2. That being said I thought we were supposed to follow the science? Saying that having a nuanced policy is too idealistic is a terribly lazy argument. We put 10 men on the moon, I think we can figure out a science based approach to vaccination. INHO there should be exceptions and I will use my friend "Bob" as an example. He and his wife both had COVID and are in an antibody study at the University of Houston. His wife's test results show her N series is at 29.6. His is at 123. Her spike protein was 638, his is over 2500. Both N & S are off chart. First of all neither one of them need the vaccine, second, where is the science on how people like this are impacted? If the Clown in Chief is pushing his policy that is the best for everyone, why do illegals get a pass? Horrific argument. (Sorry, I had to) I agree with your premise that you can’t force everyone to take something that will cause harm, but you have to prove the harm. There is almost no proof of any significant harm that the vaccines have or will cause. And they have done significant studies to make sure of this. If they don’t cause harm, how does your argument fare? Also your example does not follow your logic. Your logic you initially postulated was, simply: “If forced harm, regardless of magnitude of harm, then unethical” But the example you provided was “If unnecessary, then unethical” If Bob goes to get his unnecessary vaccine and it doesn’t hurt him, but it helps society in that they don’t have to hire and pay both money and time for 69000 medical waiver reviewers to trudge through paperwork, then it was an overall benefit with no harm. Other than Bobs political feelings. Oh by the way, that’s why I run the 1.5 miles. Because it doesn’t cause harm. If the PT test was actually a life expectancy altering event, then I would absolutely call it a moral question to unnecessarily require people to get it. There are a few counter arguments that I am expecting: 1) haven’t you seen the study on teen male myocarditis? Yes, see the other thread. The study is flawed. There is actually a minor increase in lymph node swelling and cardiac events for society that is being monitored, but those studies resulted in small numbers with huge confidence intervals. Also, they showed about 10 benefits of the shot that were not advertised, but I digress. 2) How do you know that it won’t give us all lasting side effects in 5-10 years? Because that has never happened before, similar vaccines have been created and have been studied, and virtually all side effects for a vaccine show up within two months. Prove that it can happen. https://www.muhealth.org/our-stories/how-do-we-know-covid-19-vaccine-wont-have-long-term-side-effects If you say Anthrax, be prepared to refute this claim: “While recent studies have demonstrated the vaccine is highly reactogenic,[51] and causes motor neuron death in mice,[52] there is no clear evidence or epidemiological studies on Gulf War veterans linking the vaccine to Gulf War illness. Combining this with the lack of symptoms from current deployments of individuals who have received the vaccine led the Committee on Gulf War Veterans' Illnesses to conclude that the vaccine is not a likely cause of Gulf War illness for most ill veterans.“ 1
gearhog Posted September 12, 2021 Posted September 12, 2021 Dr. Abortionology, can you back to the part about “my body, my choice”? I’d be interested to hear it from a PhD perspective.
Negatory Posted September 12, 2021 Posted September 12, 2021 (edited) 30 minutes ago, torqued said: Dr. Abortionology, can you back to the part about “my body, my choice”? I’d be interested to hear it from a PhD perspective. Sure, it all comes down to whether or not what you choose to do with your body causes harm to others. Not getting vaccinated on a societal scale hurts people, as people are unnecessarily hospitalized and die from COVID spread. Abortion doesn’t harm other people, up to a certain number of weeks of life, as the cells are not capable of viability/don’t meet criteria to be called living any more than your gallbladder. Which is why almost all people support bans on abortions at a certain point in the pregnancy, as it now causes harm. See, reasonable limits on bodily autonomy. See also: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon Now I’m not trying to get into a debate with folks about whether a fetus or embryo is a human. Some of you think it is at one point. Some of us think that point is significantly different. And some people think it’s black and white and always is morally unjust - these are the people that many disagree with. And what it comes down to is religious pandering that won’t be solved on this forums. Facts are, 60% of Americans support the right to Abortion. Those 60% virtually all support a ban at some point (nowhere in America is abortion legalized to 40 weeks). Edited September 12, 2021 by Negatory
gearhog Posted September 12, 2021 Posted September 12, 2021 (edited) Hmm. Interesting. You keep saying things like "up to a certain number", "at a certain point", and then follow it up with "reasonable limits". Would you care to clarify? You obviously have thought this through, so why did you stop short of specifics, Doctor? If your position on abortion is vague and nuanced, why isn't your position on vaccination? Very strange. An exceptional article in The Atlantic about the Roe baby from Roe vs. Wade (now a mother of two herself) from a couple days ago: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/09/jane-roe-v-wade-baby-norma-mccorvey/620009/. Edited September 12, 2021 by torqued added: "Doctor"
gearhog Posted September 12, 2021 Posted September 12, 2021 Did I mention that I am in no way against someone getting vaccinated if they think they are at high risk?
Negatory Posted September 12, 2021 Posted September 12, 2021 17 minutes ago, torqued said: An exceptional article in The Atlantic about the Roe baby from Roe vs. Wade (now a mother of two herself) from a couple days ago: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/09/jane-roe-v-wade-baby-norma-mccorvey/620009/. Do you ever think about how every time you have had sex with someone using a condom or birth control, you intentionally denied life to a future human being? If we want to go down playing the heart strings of all life is precious, how many human souls have you, personally, failed? 1
gearhog Posted September 12, 2021 Posted September 12, 2021 5 minutes ago, Negatory said: Do you ever think about how every time you have had sex with someone using a condom or birth control, you intentionally denied life to a future human being? If we want to go down playing the heart strings of all life is precious, how many human souls have you, personally, failed? No, I can't say that I have ever though about life beginning before conception. But if I were the type of ridiculous person to contemplate such BS to divert attention from my inability to produce an answer to a very direct question, I might speculate it to be in the hundreds of billions, and in dozens of countries around the globe. But anyway, what is your "certain number" and "certain point" you earlier alluded to? 1
BashiChuni Posted September 12, 2021 Posted September 12, 2021 25 minutes ago, Negatory said: Do you ever think about how every time you have had sex with someone using a condom or birth control, you intentionally denied life to a future human being? If we want to go down playing the heart strings of all life is precious, how many human souls have you, personally, failed? Congratulations you have posted the dumbest shit I have ever read on this website. 5
Guest LumberjackAxe Posted September 12, 2021 Posted September 12, 2021 8 minutes ago, BashiChuni said: Congratulations you have posted the dumbest shit I have ever read on this website. Clearly you weren’t around when masshole was active.
Negatory Posted September 12, 2021 Posted September 12, 2021 1 minute ago, torqued said: No, I can't say that I have ever though about life beginning before conception. But if I were the type of ridiculous person to contemplate such BS to divert attention from my inability to produce an answer to a very direct question, I might speculate it to be in the hundreds of billions, and in dozens of countries around the globe. But anyway, what is your "certain number" and "certain point" you earlier alluded to? Fetal viability outside of the womb. Anywhere from 24-28 weeks. Not that that information is going to be useful for this discussion. 2 minutes ago, BashiChuni said: Congratulations you have posted the dumbest shit I have ever read on this website. You're entitled to your opinion. I'm entitled to believe that sperm+egg equaling life immediately is the dumbest shit I have ever read on this website. Is it dumb because it shows a black and white argument is dumb? Mission accomplished, brosef. 1 1
Negatory Posted September 12, 2021 Posted September 12, 2021 On 9/7/2021 at 11:09 AM, bennynova said: Religious exemption is pretty straight forward regardless of your religion. The vaccines were all made leveraging abortion fetal cell lines. If you are against abortion, then this is an easy moral dilemma on supporting abortions by proxy. some may say, but it’s so far removed. Ok, Whatev. I’m not ready to benefit off the life an a murdered baby. Here's a typical example of doublethink where morality fits you when you like. This one actually plays directly into the abortion debate that helped get us here. I sincerely hope that you, and anyone else claiming to have moral issues with how the vaccine was created, never used any of these drugs (I am 100% certain you have, as you're in the military and have been vaccinated): 2
FLEA Posted September 12, 2021 Posted September 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, Negatory said: Here's a typical example of doublethink where morality fits you when you like. This one actually plays directly into the abortion debate that helped get us here. I sincerely hope that you, and anyone else claiming to have moral issues with how the vaccine was created, never used any of these drugs (I am 100% certain you have, as you're in the military and have been vaccinated): Dude you sound nothing short of insane in your last 6-9 post. But if I'm understanding you correctly you only believe a right to bodily autonomy exist when it fits your moral narrative and not others? Did heaven ordain your benevolence or did you just decide yourself you were a god? 5
Guardian Posted September 12, 2021 Posted September 12, 2021 Fetal viability outside the womb is a dumb argument. It implies the child no longer needs support past birth. Pretty sure all children would have died if people just stopped supporting babies after birth. What about all of those people on life support. They aren’t viable by themselves without aide.
Guardian Posted September 12, 2021 Posted September 12, 2021 It’s weird to me how some people say they are fans of freedom of choice for women. What they really mean is they think that some women should have the right to choose to end the life of another (that’s what terminate means). Even if that child is female. Did that female have the freedoms of choice?
08Dawg Posted September 12, 2021 Posted September 12, 2021 (edited) Don’t mind me, just checking in to see if this three way circle jerk of an argument is still going on….oh, it is? Ok, continue 🍿🍿🍿 Edited September 12, 2021 by 08Dawg 2
SurelySerious Posted September 12, 2021 Posted September 12, 2021 Don’t mind me, just checking in to see if this three way circle jerk of an argument is still going on….oh, it is? Ok, continue 1 1
Negatory Posted September 12, 2021 Posted September 12, 2021 56 minutes ago, FLEA said: Dude you sound nothing short of insane in your last 6-9 post. But if I'm understanding you correctly you only believe a right to bodily autonomy exist when it fits your moral narrative and not others? Did heaven ordain your benevolence or did you just decide yourself you were a god? I believe humans determine ethics and morality, if that's your question.
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