Retire then Hire Program

[Bode]

I retire at the end of this year and was recently hired by DAL.  I'm considering joining a reserve unit after retirement because I enjoy the flying and teaching.  I've had a few people mention its a terrible idea and I will lose money big time.  Anyone here in the program or ran the numbers? 

[SocialD]

If I understand it correctly, you'd forfeit 1/30th of your retiree pay.  As a reservist, a paycard is 1/30th of of your pay rate + flight pay, and you can log 2 of those per day.  So based on my cursory understanding of the process, you'd make more money in the long run if you're talking just military money. 

 

Where you'd really lose out on money is missing stuff at the airline.  As an example, when I was a 330 FO, I missed out on a 3 day GS that would have paid me $13k (including 401k), because I was a at drill.  My drill check for that weekend was $1,500.  Clearly and extreme example, but even now as 717 FO, I recently missed an easy 2 day GS that cost me ~$3,200.  This is just GS opportunities, I'm not even talking dropped trips or reserve days that you'll have to do to work at the reserves.  That stuff adds up fast!

 

As someone who has done two jobs for the last 8 years, I can say, I've lost a ton of money for being in the Guard (cost of doing business).  But more importantly, I've lost TONS of my free time and life on the outside...that's the truly painful part.  I've talked with so many guys who've said their only regret was not getting out earlier and they can't believe how much free time they now have.  I absolutely can not wait to get out and only have one job.  If you want to teach, there are plenty of opportunities at DAL.  You can be a sim instructor (paid min of 85 hours at whatever you can hold), if you don't mind living in ATL or commuting to the sims.  If not, we have FOs who are part of the line check airmen cadre called LVPs...they do some instruction.  Or you could get your civilian instructor ratings and teach at the local FBO on the side.  I do this from time to time and find it quite enjoyable.  

 

Best of luck in whatever you choose.  More than ever, the AF needs good IPs with lots of experience.

[di1630]

I’m doing this…it’s a horrible financial choice. Works out to about $150 a day net extra you work…or about what a substitute teacher makes.

DM me if you need info

[HuggyU2]

di1630,

Do you also lose Disability pay for the days you're working for the military?

[Bode]

If I understand it correctly, you'd forfeit 1/30th of your retiree pay.  As a reservist, a paycard is 1/30th of of your pay rate + flight pay, and you can log 2 of those per day.  So based on my cursory understanding of the process, you'd make more money in the long run if you're talking just military money. 
 
Where you'd really lose out on money is missing stuff at the airline.  As an example, when I was a 330 FO, I missed out on a 3 day GS that would have paid me $13k (including 401k), because I was a at drill.  My drill check for that weekend was $1,500.  Clearly and extreme example, but even now as 717 FO, I recently missed an easy 2 day GS that cost me ~$3,200.  This is just GS opportunities, I'm not even talking dropped trips or reserve days that you'll have to do to work at the reserves.  That stuff adds up fast!
 
As someone who has done two jobs for the last 8 years, I can say, I've lost a ton of money for being in the Guard (cost of doing business).  But more importantly, I've lost TONS of my free time and life on the outside...that's the truly painful part.  I've talked with so many guys who've said their only regret was not getting out earlier and they can't believe how much free time they now have.  I absolutely can not wait to get out and only have one job.  If you want to teach, there are plenty of opportunities at DAL.  You can be a sim instructor (paid min of 85 hours at whatever you can hold), if you don't mind living in ATL or commuting to the sims.  If not, we have FOs who are part of the line check airmen cadre called LVPs...they do some instruction.  Or you could get your civilian instructor ratings and teach at the local FBO on the side.  I do this from time to time and find it quite enjoyable.  
 
Best of luck in whatever you choose.  More than ever, the AF needs good IPs with lots of experience.

Completely random question…why did you move from the 330 to the 717?


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[SocialD]

17 minutes ago, Bode said:

Completely random question…why did you move from the 330 to the 717?

 

Displaced thanks to that bitch rona.  If I couldn't stay in-base WB FO (homie don't commute), I just wanted to be as senior as possible while I waited out this downturns.  I went from being 90% in seat to 7% in seat, which has been damn nice.  If I hadn't been displaced, I'd likely have stayed 330 FO until I could have held Capt on it.  For now I'm going to 717 Capt, but I can see myself heading back to 330 FO when these countries stop losing their minds over rona.  

[hindsight2020]

13 hours ago, Bode said:

I retire at the end of this year and was recently hired by DAL.  I'm considering joining a reserve unit after retirement because I enjoy the flying and teaching.  I've had a few people mention its a terrible idea and I will lose money big time.  Anyone here in the program or ran the numbers? 

Its not so much about the money from where i see it. The point of a rehire as an airline newb isnt on the pay offset on the military side; it's in the value of cajoling your junior airline schedule via mildrop, something a full stop  mil retiree no longer has available.

Anecdotally at least on my corner of AFRC, the process to onboard a retire-rehire applicant was running in excess of 18 months. For most doing it for the mil drop cape, that timeline makes it a moot point as long as their airline is hiring people below them. For folks stuck during a period of stopped musical chairs at the airline, it might be worth the wait i suppose. Most of the guys in the position of getting an active retirement in my squadron are just moving on at 20, citing the pita of current timeline and requirements to onboard thru the program as not really worth it to them, plus they all have 5 year seniority numbers anyways so the schedule flexing at the airline isnt an issue anymore. Cant speak for how much of a dumspter fire your unit of interest may or may not be wrt CSS backshop and their batting avg wrt hiring qweep. 

 

 

[di1630]

di1630,
Do you also lose Disability pay for the days you're working for the military?

True.

I did the math for myself it’s not exact because I don’t have.m a disability rating yet but I figure I’ll net $150 a day after they deduct my pay.

But I’d do it for free so it’s not an issue.

[TheNewGazmo]

Good financial advice going here, but to play devils advocate; having the Guard or Reserves when you need some time off (holidays, birthdays, summer time, etc.) is a nice option. There are different options out there depending on the unit and how valuable you are to them. MPA days, T-AGR, etc. There are lots ways to tactically place an AFTP or RD to make your QOL a little better, especially when you are junior. It (sometimes) is not all about the money. Of course while I say this I am nearing my 20th year of this shite and ready to GTFO....

[SocialD]

If you choose to stay in and are the type that is going to use mloa to enhance your schedule, don't be the jackass that brags about it when you're around co-workers who can't do such things.  It happens a bit more than I'd ever have imagined and as a fellow mil dude, there nothing more cringeworthy.  

[Bode]

If you choose to stay in and are the type that is going to use mloa to enhance your schedule, don't be the jackass that brags about it when you're around co-workers who can't do such things.  It happens a bit more than I'd ever have imagined and as a fellow mil dude, there nothing more cringeworthy.  

Copy all, that sounds like terrible form anyway.


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[HuggyU2]

9 hours ago, SocialD said:

don't be the jackass that brags about it when you're around co-workers who can't do such things.  

 

9 hours ago, Bode said:

Copy all, that sounds like terrible form anyway.

So true.  And thank you for stating it.  

[TheNewGazmo]

On 10/7/2021 at 3:52 PM, SocialD said:

If you choose to stay in and are the type that is going to use mloa to enhance your schedule, don't be the jackass that brags about it when you're around co-workers who can't do such things.  It happens a bit more than I'd ever have imagined and as a fellow mil dude, there nothing more cringeworthy.  

While I generally agree with this advice, trust me when I say there are plenty of less than ethical (but contractually legal) schemes that non-military pilots pull to enhance their schedule and/or make TONS of cash to not work and they do it without batting an eyelash so don't feel guilty for dropping a day of ML here and there.  Just don't abuse it (like dropping it the days before and after Thanksgiving or Christmas day, because they will call your BS).  

[slc]

12 minutes ago, TheNewGazmo said:

While I generally agree with this advice, trust me when I say there are plenty of less than ethical (but contractually legal) schemes that non-military pilots pull to enhance their schedule and/or make TONS of cash to not work and they do it without batting an eyelash so don't feel guilty for dropping a day of ML here and there.  Just don't abuse it (like dropping it the days before and after Thanksgiving or Christmas day, because they will call your BS).  

I have dropped ML before Thanksgiving in the past (and not batted an eyelash).  Why?  Because I was flying a day or night sortie for proficiency.  Nothing "unethical" about that.  

[TheNewGazmo]

7 minutes ago, slc said:

I have dropped ML before Thanksgiving in the past (and not batted an eyelash).  Why?  Because I was flying a day or night sortie for proficiency.  Nothing "unethical" about that.  

There are justifiable scenarios for everything.  We have to do military duty to stay current and juggling two jobs is not always an easy thing to do (none of the non-military people should envy us for it...).  As long as you can CYA and prove you were doing duty, not much they can do or say about it, but of course we all know this.  The main point being don't be one of those guys on a transcon who says, "Yeah man,  I dropped mil leave last week right in the middle of a 6-day stretch of short-call.  Bawahahahaha! It worked great!" because you'd probably get the "You're a douche." side-eye from the person next to you.

[SocialD]

1 hour ago, TheNewGazmo said:

While I generally agree with this advice, trust me when I say there are plenty of less than ethical (but contractually legal) schemes that non-military pilots pull to enhance their schedule and/or make TONS of cash to not work and they do it without batting an eyelash so don't feel guilty for dropping a day of ML here and there.  Just don't abuse it (like dropping it the days before and after Thanksgiving or Christmas day, because they will call your BS).  

 

Right, we're 100% in agreement.  I have zero issues dropping mloa, I do it whenever needed without a second thought.  I'm just saying don't be the dude that drops a Christmas trip so you can accomplish your stan eval testing in your 1st month (it happened lol)...then brag about it to your mostly non-mil crew.  It's like bragging to your buddy who recently lost his job, that you just made 6k on a 3-day greenslip last week.  Like the dudes you mentioned, it's just poor form.

 

 

1 hour ago, slc said:

I have dropped ML before Thanksgiving in the past (and not batted an eyelash).  Why?  Because I was flying a day or night sortie for proficiency.  Nothing "unethical" about that.  

 

Crazy enough, at DAL, they will sometimes rebuild your trip around MLOA on trips dropped over holidays.  I've seen it happen...dude mil dropped a 6 day trip that hit Christmas.  He only dropped MLOA on day 1 of that trip, so the company awarded the MLOA then DH'd him on day 2 or 3 to rejoin the trip. 

 

Edited October 11, 2021 by SocialD

[droptime]

On 10/5/2021 at 8:42 AM, SocialD said:

As someone who has done two jobs for the last 8 years, I can say, I've lost a ton of money for being in the Guard (cost of doing business).  But more importantly, I've lost TONS of my free time and life on the outside...that's the truly painful part.  I've talked with so many guys who've said their only regret was not getting out earlier and they can't believe how much free time they now have.  I absolutely can not wait to get out and only have one job. 

Would you recommend going to the airlines and not pursuing Guard/Reserves? I will more than likely be off active duty at about the 10 year mark and am dreading the thought of working 2 jobs for the next decade. My wife's big concern is healthcare now and after I would retire at 65, but I'm sure there are plenty of people who have pulled chocks and figured it out. 

[Tommy]

I recommend finding an IMA job. I also heard of the civil air patrol and the Air Force academy have some points only positions that can get you to 20 years of service. Definitely not an expert on the subject or I’d tell you more but they seem like a good middle ground. No flying beans and low annual requirements from what I understand. 

[Chida]

When I left Reg AF at 10 yrs, I had no intention of joining the ARC. But, the job market was not very favorable at the time and plan A fell thru. I joined the ARC for the pay. Then after a short while got a good-paying contract pilot job. At this point I used the ARC for scheduling enhancement and didn’t mind the pay cut (by virtue of working for the mil vice civilian job).
Then a little later got into the airlines (ACMI) where again I needed the ARC for the pay. Finally got my destination airline and after year 1, didn’t need the ARC pay. In fact after doing 2 jobs pretty hard for 4 years I needed a change and I didn’t need to fly for the AF anymore.
It was here that I only had ~3 yrs left to get the Rsv retirement. So I went to a non-flying AF job.
There are other AF jobs besides flying sq that you can do and take up less of your free time. BLAB: do the math and see if it’s worth your time.
PS: there’s some old gouge still out there that the REAL value of a reserve retirement is the healthcare. This is wrong and probably is confused by reg retirees who tend to cling to this idea. Due to obamacare and changing laws since GW Bush’s days, healthcare is just not that expensive anymore (company/union contract dependent, of course). Plus I’m not sure that even TFL is much of a benefit nowadays compared to the low cost of Medicare Advantage (TFL being a medicare supplement for age 65+ crowd). Anyway, you gotta do the math.

[droptime]

Thanks for the input guys. I guess being an actual traditional reservist (ATR?) at 1 weekend/month, 2 weeks/yr is another option. Not nearly as much of a time suck as continuing mil flying. I'm not as concerned about follow-on healthcare as my wife, but leaving the safety blanket completely is a little nerve wracking. 

[Sua Sponte]

4 hours ago, droptime said:

Thanks for the input guys. I guess being an actual traditional reservist (ATR?) at 1 weekend/month, 2 weeks/yr is another option. Not nearly as much of a time suck as continuing mil flying. I'm not as concerned about follow-on healthcare as my wife, but leaving the safety blanket completely is a little nerve wracking. 

That’s because the Air Force gives people Stockholm syndrome. Completely leaving the military is an option made by people everyday, and a lot of us turn out happier and better than when we were in.

I also know people flying for the majors at 100% VA disability. If 100% permanent and total (P&T), you can get VA’s CHAMPVA healthcare insurance, which functions much like Tricare for retirees. You cannot be eligible for CHAMPVA if you’re eligible for Tricare for retirees.

https://vaclaimsinsider.com/champva-insurance-good-or-bad/

[Harvey]

On 1/6/2022 at 8:28 PM, droptime said:

Would you recommend going to the airlines and not pursuing Guard/Reserves? I will more than likely be off active duty at about the 10 year mark and am dreading the thought of working 2 jobs for the next decade. My wife's big concern is healthcare now and after I would retire at 65, but I'm sure there are plenty of people who have pulled chocks and figured it out. 

I punched at the 10 year mark as a Flying TR with a palace chase commitment. After I had served my 18 month commitment I decided to stay mainly because I liked the people in the unit. 
I view staying in the reserve as another insurance policy. If you have a major economic downturn, furlough, medical disability; the security of the unit and the retirement pension is huge. If you have a major airline career with no bumps in the road, then gutting out 10 extra years in the reserves won’t be worth much more than the memories with the bros. The pension at 60 will be just some extra beer money compared to your 401K balance after a 30 year airline career. 

[IZDISREAL?]

Great info gents. I'm about a year out from a 20 year retirement as an O-4 AGR and making a move to an airline. Pros/Cons to moving to TR, pinning on O-5 vs just cleanly getting out? Leaning towards the latter option.

Haven't gotten a straight answer on what it takes to move my O-4 AD retirement to an O-5 one. High-3 (3 "good years" with the Reserves?) Theres a dearth of information on this topic.

Appreciate any insights you've got and thanks.

[Chida]

You need to have 3 years’ worth of active duty (EAD, AGR, ADOS, MPA, etc) as an O-5 to make O-5 attach to your regular retirement. Otherwise, as a reserve doing the typical parttime duty (IDTs, AT, orders here/there), you will only be adding points to your eventual reg. retirement as an O-4.
There is also the conversion option: This is where you serve 3 yrs TIG as a reserve O-5, then retire as a reg O-4. At age 60, you convert your reg retirement to a reserve retirement for a pay bump.
https://www.jbsa.mil/News/News/Article/2223797/converting-active-duty-retirement-to-afr-ang-retirement/

[IZDISREAL?]

Thanks this is a great answer. Talking with the fellas today, we were under the assumption it was just 3 years as a good-boy TR. 3 years of equivalent "AD" time is a different story. I guess reserve TIG option may be the best middle ground option. Much to think about! Thanks dude.