An early what are my chances (Mid 20s edition)

[Shadows]

Greetings!

 

I'm very early in the process but I wanted to know if I'm in a realistic situation where I can make this push for fighters.

 

Age: Just turned 25

College & GPA: 3.70ish in a Sociology major

AFOQT: Not taken yet

PCSM: Not taken yet

LORs: Board member from the CA POST commission

Flight Experience: PPL w/ 120 hours with plans of completing my CPL by next year

Extracurriculars: Competitive/Non-Competitive Swimming for 10+ years (not in College, my university did not have a swim team unfortunately) & Snowboarding/Skiing for 10+ years (I've met some interesting people through this but nobody that I could think would give me a LOR).

 

 

I plan on taking the tests in Spring of next year but prior to then I want to know if 2 factors are going to preclude me from fighters specifically.

#1 - My age, I might not be pushing 30 but I've read a post here talking about how the average age of applicants is like 22 or 23 and I feel that by the time I show up I'll be 26 and will spend years chasing "No's" because I "should've been making this push earlier" until it's too late or be pushed to go AD.

#2 - Distance; I'm lining up a career with Federal Law Enforcement but the problem is that due to the locations available I may end up hours away from the unit/state. How much of an impact could that be? I've heard some stories of units only sponsoring people who are residents of their state (specifically I heard this one about Texas).

 

Edited October 6, 2021 by Shadows

[NABO]

#1: You're still in the goldilocks zone IMO. Similar to you, I started this process and took all my tests at 25, and got picked up for fighters of the street at age 26. Age is very unit dependent, some prefer young guys out of college, while others see value in someone with more life/professional experience. Through this process I've seen several people get picked up for fighters at 28, 29, and 30. Furthermore, this may vary by year as units decide to hire young one year and balance it out with an older hire the next. Overall, If you are competitive in every other way, I do not see age as something that will negatively impact you until maybe 28. That gives you a solid 2-3 years to apply/rush as hard as you can. Come interview time, you may very well be asked why you didn't start earlier or pursue an AD commission. Have a real and honest answer ready and it should be a non-issue.

On that note though, why wait until spring to do your tests? Definitely give yourself 2-3 months to study, but you should want to get them done ASAP, as the last thing you want to be doing is trying to harass a recruiter to schedule you in time for the spring "batch" of boards. I made this mistake peak-COVID and wished I had started it earlier.

 

#2: Echoing above, but this is again very unit dependent. IMO, the general rule of thumb is that local ties can always help you but the lack thereof won't necessarily hurt you. I've been at several rush events and interviews where it felt like there was only one or two guys from the opposite coast, but they were still invited out the same as the local guys. If the unit really likes you, they're not going to care where you live, as long as you can convince them that you're willing to drop everything and move there when that time comes.

Sometimes though, with all other things even, they will go with a local guy as a tiebreaker. You can't control the board's selection process and there's really no way around that except to be yourself and show why you'd be the best fit for the squadron, both on paper and in person.

 

I can only speak from my own experiences, but this is what I've found through the process thus far.

Long story short, I think just about everybody in the "circuit" has had these same concerns at some point, it's only natural. Though I wouldn't let either of them prevent you from pursuing this with your full effort, and given your current situation I certainly don't think either would preclude you from getting a slot. 

Good luck!

Edited October 25, 2021 by NABO

[Shadows]

Thank you for your detailed reply NABO!

Seeing as how things could potentially work out for me I'll indeed be making this push. I still am a tad concerned that I may not have many extracurricular activities in my life that would wow people. As a result I'm struggling to think about what would make me appear good enough to interview outside of just getting to meet the people when they have open meetings.

Based from what I've read it seems like the general advice is to go to open get-together of the squadrons that you want to join and just be social with the people (basically "rushing"). One squadron I read said that they don't do individual tours and they invite "selected candidates" for the weekend of interviews. In this case how would you introduce yourself before applying? I did notice that other squadrons have, at least this year, wrote that they were considering visits and you were able to call to schedule it.

 

Edit: Managed to find a podcast about rushing squadrons. Pretty much answered my questions. In a way the process isn't convoluted and seems pretty straight forward. Just gotta pick up the phone and call the relevant point of contact it seems.

Edited October 7, 2021 by Shadows

[flying_pig]

Thank you for your detailed reply NABO!
Seeing as how things could potentially work out for me I'll indeed be making this push. I still am a tad concerned that I may not have many extracurricular activities in my life that would wow people. As a result I'm struggling to think about what would make me appear good enough to interview outside of just getting to meet the people when they have open meetings.
Based from what I've read it seems like the general advice is to go to open get-together of the squadrons that you want to join and just be social with the people (basically "rushing"). One squadron I read said that they don't do individual tours and they invite "selected candidates" for the weekend of interviews. In this case how would you introduce yourself before applying? I did notice that other squadrons have, at least this year, wrote that they were considering visits and you were able to call to schedule it.
 
Edit: Managed to find a podcast about rushing squadrons. Pretty much answered my questions. In a way the process isn't convoluted and seems pretty straight forward. Just gotta pick up the phone and call the relevant point of contact it seems.

Couple of things to note (sorry I’m late to the thread). I’m also 25 years old. I just graduated college (much lower GPA in a “fluffy” degree), my PPL should be finished in the spring. The first thing I’d like to mention is your desire to go into Federal law enforcement. I’ve been a police officer for almost five years and am friends with several who have gone on to state and federal LEO jobs. I will caution you, most I know of said it wasn’t what they thought it would be.

Second, what podcast did you find? I’d like to tune in. Good luck!


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[7thokage]

#1 What up. I’m 27 and just got selected back in June. You’re plenty good.

#2 I’m from Florida but hired in Cali. Especially for fighters, the expectation is that you move there. So be prepared to find a civilian job in the new locations. Also make sure you understand that for fighters you’re looking at about 5 years of full time training with 2-3 of that being at your new unit.


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[Init2]

You’ve definitely got a chance! See what happens with your scores first. 

[realm]

Interested in a UPT Fighter Slot, Any Advice Much Appreciated

I’m 23 y/o, currently a Medic in the Army Guard with just over a year left on my contract. I graduated university 2 months ago with a B.S. in Cybersecurity and a 3.67 GPA. I’ve been researching the Air Guard UPT and civilian aviation training pipelines for the last couple of weeks. I know the Guard UPT selection process for fighter slots is extremely competitive to say the least, so I’ve been studying like crazy for the AFOQT, which I have scheduled along with the TBAS for late February. I’m also getting things started at a local flight school to begin working toward my PPL, and I have a 3rd Class Flight Physical scheduled in a couple of days as well. I should also note that I have a mild color anomaly, for perspective, I scored a 9/14 on the Ishihara plate test as recently as a year ago. My short-term goal is to get the highest PCSM score I can possibly get to be as competitive as possible. Given that many of the units I’ve looked into so far aren’t allowing potential UPT candidates to rush/visit, I would really appreciate any and all advice to an absolute beginner in the process such as myself to be as competitive as possible, and to maximize chances of being selected for an ANG UPT fighter slot. Please don’t be afraid to destroy my dreams, I need realistic expectations and honest perspectives on what I’ve included in this post above all else. Thank you for everyone’s time.

[tbro96]

Hello everyone,

I'm a 25 year old (almost 26) looking to get an ANG pilot slot with a Fighter Squadron. I just recently received my AFOQT and PCSM scores back, and they are as follows:

Pilot: 94

CSO:87

ABM:87

Acad Aptitude: 78

Verbal: 89

Quantitative: 59

PCSM: 65

Flight hours: 0

 

I am currently trying my best to save up for some flight time, but it's just getting more expensive for training, and more expensive to live with inflation, and my area is blowing up recently so my COL in general is going up. I am considering taking out a loan but I am apprehensive, as I would be taking on a lot of debt to learn something that I would be payed to learn in UPT. However, I understand the flight time increases my PCSM to potentially an 89 with 41 hours of flight time. So I am torn.

Also, if asked a question along the lines of "How do you even know you want to be a pilot if you don't have any flight time." I'm not sure how to answer. I do have my student pilot license, and I've got some time behind a stick (less than 1 hour and not logged) in a 172 as well as a light multi-engine jet. It's hard for me to describe the feeling I get deep in my soul of how amazing it is to be there flying. I just *KNOW* that I want to do this. Like it's what I was put here to do.

My undergraduate GPA was a 2.68, and I recently obtained a Master's degree in order to show I am capable of more. I finished with a 4.0. I was not focused during my undergrad years, and just got a degree because "that's what you're supposed to do." Whereas my M.S. had the purpose of becoming a fighter pilot behind it.

I currently work for an aircraft OEM as an SMS analyst, if that has any effect on how I would be viewed. I have a letter of rec from the Chief Pilot in my org, as well as the Director of Flight Operations.

 

Any and all help would be very much appreciated. This is my dream, and I want to do everything I possibly can to make it a reality. Thank you.

[DFRESH]

4 minutes ago, tbro96 said:

Hello everyone,

I'm a 25 year old (almost 26) looking to get an ANG pilot slot with a Fighter Squadron. I just recently received my AFOQT and PCSM scores back, and they are as follows:

Pilot: 94

CSO:87

ABM:87

Acad Aptitude: 78

Verbal: 89

Quantitative: 59

PCSM: 65

Flight hours: 0

 

I am currently trying my best to save up for some flight time, but it's just getting more expensive for training, and more expensive to live with inflation, and my area is blowing up recently so my COL in general is going up. I am considering taking out a loan but I am apprehensive, as I would be taking on a lot of debt to learn something that I would be payed to learn in UPT. However, I understand the flight time increases my PCSM to potentially an 89 with 41 hours of flight time. So I am torn.

Also, if asked a question along the lines of "How do you even know you want to be a pilot if you don't have any flight time." I'm not sure how to answer. I do have my student pilot license, and I've got some time behind a stick (less than 1 hour and not logged) in a 172 as well as a light multi-engine jet. It's hard for me to describe the feeling I get deep in my soul of how amazing it is to be there flying. I just *KNOW* that I want to do this. Like it's what I was put here to do.

My undergraduate GPA was a 2.68, and I recently obtained a Master's degree in order to show I am capable of more. I finished with a 4.0. I was not focused during my undergrad years, and just got a degree because "that's what you're supposed to do." Whereas my M.S. had the purpose of becoming a fighter pilot behind it.

I currently work for an aircraft OEM as an SMS analyst, if that has any effect on how I would be viewed. I have a letter of rec from the Chief Pilot in my org, as well as the Director of Flight Operations.

 

Any and all help would be very much appreciated. This is my dream, and I want to do everything I possibly can to make it a reality. Thank you.

If it's your future career, and you can pay money to help get yourself there, would you? To me, even $1500-$2000 to help ensure my future career seems worth it. I would get the flight time. 

[tbro96]

17 minutes ago, DFRESH said:

If it's your future career, and you can pay money to help get yourself there, would you? To me, even $1500-$2000 to help ensure my future career seems worth it. I would get the flight time. 

Yes, I agree. My main concern is that some of the squadrons I am applying to have deadlines coming up very soon. Both of which are at the top of my list for squadrons I want to be in. So I guess some of my post only applies to those I apply to before I get some hours. Do you think I have a good chance at getting at least an interview?

[LAW428]

Getting a PPL at a minimum is pretty much required


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[ryleypav]

Shotgun apps even if you dont think you'll get an interview. You may be invited you may not, but you most certainly will not if you dont even submit the application. 

Do what you have to in order to get some flight time, but dont get yourself in over your head either. Try to find some mom and pop flying school where they are a little on the cheaper end, even if you have to drive an hour away for it. But like its been said, a PPL is usually going to be a hard requirement these days, if not even just a soft unofficial one. With the shear volume of applications fighter squadrons are receiving now, its a weed-out tool. 

[tbro96]

2 hours ago, ryleypav said:

Shotgun apps even if you dont think you'll get an interview. You may be invited you may not, but you most certainly will not if you dont even submit the application. 

Do what you have to in order to get some flight time, but dont get yourself in over your head either. Try to find some mom and pop flying school where they are a little on the cheaper end, even if you have to drive an hour away for it. But like its been said, a PPL is usually going to be a hard requirement these days, if not even just a soft unofficial one. With the shear volume of applications fighter squadrons are receiving now, its a weed-out tool. 

That's my plan. I'm selling my gaming PC in hopes of being able to finance at least some training and get the ball rolling. I'm hoping if I can at least get an interview with my AFOQT and PCSM scores, then I will be able to say "Hey, since I've submitted I've been able to get x amount of hours under my belt." This way it shows I'm serious.

[LAW428]

I have no idea what gaming PC's sell for but flight training will usually case $150 per hour. I got picked up in December, and i don't think anyone that interviewed did not have a PPL. Even at 99.99% of heavy units a PPL is a minimum even if not explicitly stated. Getting a PPL is crazy expensive ($6,000-$10,000), but realistically anymore getting an interview without one is very unlikely even with your great scores. 

[tbro96]

1 hour ago, LAW428 said:

I have no idea what gaming PC's sell for but flight training will usually case $150 per hour. I got picked up in December, and i don't think anyone that interviewed did not have a PPL. Even at 99.99% of heavy units a PPL is a minimum even if not explicitly stated. Getting a PPL is crazy expensive ($6,000-$10,000), but realistically anymore getting an interview without one is very unlikely even with your great scores. 

It'll just be a few grand for my whole setup, so definitely not an entire PPL. I understand a PPL is an easy way to filter people, but it seems to me that it filters out a lot of people that may be a great fit/great at the job, but cannot afford the training. It's basically financial gatekeeping. I've put in just as much effort as the next guy with studying for exams, being an upstanding citizen, etc, but I won't even get a shot at an interview because I don't have the financial means to get training on something that I would be retrained on anyway? I'm not whining, or trying to come off that way. Like I said I understand it's a decent filter - so I'm doing what I can to get the money together because I'm not going to let that stop me. But I'm certain there are other people that are worse off financially than I am, but are just as - if not more - qualified, and that bothers me.

[LAW428]

I agree with you but unfortunately thats just the way it is now days.


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[RocketDriver]

On 3/29/2022 at 11:25 AM, tbro96 said:

It'll just be a few grand for my whole setup, so definitely not an entire PPL. I understand a PPL is an easy way to filter people, but it seems to me that it filters out a lot of people that may be a great fit/great at the job, but cannot afford the training. It's basically financial gatekeeping. I've put in just as much effort as the next guy with studying for exams, being an upstanding citizen, etc, but I won't even get a shot at an interview because I don't have the financial means to get training on something that I would be retrained on anyway? I'm not whining, or trying to come off that way. Like I said I understand it's a decent filter - so I'm doing what I can to get the money together because I'm not going to let that stop me. But I'm certain there are other people that are worse off financially than I am, but are just as - if not more - qualified, and that bothers me.

If you are absolutely sure this is what you were put on this earth to do, have you considered active duty? Or heavy units? Or enlisting in an ANG unit to gain experience and get to know the squadron better? You're self-selecting to the most difficult group to be hired into and you're already fighting an uphill battle compared to many of your fellow applicants.

Having a PPL is 100% a gateway because the Guard loses the pilot slot if you wash out of UPT. They can afford to be picky with who they select, and they should be. If you wash out they don't get a chance to fill your slot with an alternate, that money is gone. Think about this from the SQ/CC point of view, are you willing to wager the one or two slots per year you get on someone with zero flight time? Especially when you're getting 100-200 applicants per year for each pilot slot, many of whom have 90s across the board on AFOQT/TBAS, great GPAs, and a PPL in addition to a good work ethic? Active duty is where the Air Force can afford to take chances on people because they own you and can send you down another career path if you don't make it. The Guard doesn't have that luxury. 

If you want to bump your chances with guard fighter units, find a way to make the PPL happen. 

Edited April 4, 2022 by RocketDriver

[RocketDriver]

On 1/29/2022 at 5:57 AM, realm said:

Interested in a UPT Fighter Slot, Any Advice Much Appreciated

I’m 23 y/o, currently a Medic in the Army Guard with just over a year left on my contract. I graduated university 2 months ago with a B.S. in Cybersecurity and a 3.67 GPA. I’ve been researching the Air Guard UPT and civilian aviation training pipelines for the last couple of weeks. I know the Guard UPT selection process for fighter slots is extremely competitive to say the least, so I’ve been studying like crazy for the AFOQT, which I have scheduled along with the TBAS for late February. I’m also getting things started at a local flight school to begin working toward my PPL, and I have a 3rd Class Flight Physical scheduled in a couple of days as well. I should also note that I have a mild color anomaly, for perspective, I scored a 9/14 on the Ishihara plate test as recently as a year ago. My short-term goal is to get the highest PCSM score I can possibly get to be as competitive as possible. Given that many of the units I’ve looked into so far aren’t allowing potential UPT candidates to rush/visit, I would really appreciate any and all advice to an absolute beginner in the process such as myself to be as competitive as possible, and to maximize chances of being selected for an ANG UPT fighter slot. Please don’t be afraid to destroy my dreams, I need realistic expectations and honest perspectives on what I’ve included in this post above all else. Thank you for everyone’s time.

You're doing all the right things to get started. Work hard, score well on the AFOQT, and get as much flying time as you can. Then start applying to as many units as possible and put yourself out there. You're young and have a lot of time to get hired, and it sometimes helps to apply to the same unit a few years in a row to build a rapport with them. 

If you end up with scores over 80, combined with your background, you'll maybe get a few looks. If you can get scores in the 90s, you'll be competitive, and then it's a question of time and effort put into rushing. Also, consider heavy units. They fly great missions as well (especially Herks), and you'll get a lot more flight time if the airlines are in your future. 

The only red flag is your color vision, they run a separate test from the Ishihara at FC1 but there's no real way to know until you get there. 

[7thokage]

Just a heads up… no PPL means very *unlikely* to get an interview. It does not mean impossible. Be great in all areas you reasonably can control!


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[tbro96]

15 hours ago, RocketDriver said:

If you are absolutely sure this is what you were put on this earth to do, have you considered active duty? Or heavy units? Or enlisting in an ANG unit to gain experience and get to know the squadron better? You're self-selecting to the most difficult group to be hired into and you're already fighting an uphill battle compared to many of your fellow applicants.

Having a PPL is 100% a gateway because the Guard loses the pilot slot if you wash out of UPT. They can afford to be picky with who they select, and they should be. If you wash out they don't get a chance to fill your slot with an alternate, that money is gone. Think about this from the SQ/CC point of view, are you willing to wager the one or two slots per year you get on someone with zero flight time? Especially when you're getting 100-200 applicants per year for each pilot slot, many of whom have 90s across the board on AFOQT/TBAS, great GPAs, and a PPL in addition to a good work ethic? Active duty is where the Air Force can afford to take chances on people because they own you and can send you down another career path if you don't make it. The Guard doesn't have that luxury. 

If you want to bump your chances with guard fighter units, find a way to make the PPL happen. 

I am absolutely 100% sure this is what I'm meant to do. Heavy units don't interest me. I have considered the possibility of enlisting with a unit to gain experience and get to know the squadron. I understand totally about their money being a wash, so it makes sense they would be more choosey. I had a 94 Pilot AFOQT and everything else was high 80's. My TBAS w/ 0 FO was a 65, and although I'm not sure what the max is as they keep the equation secret, I'm told the max is a 70. I am applying to AD Navy and AF as well. My GPA for my M.S I finished in Dec. was a 4.0. I recently started door dashing for extra money *after* my normal 8 to 5 job and on weekends for extra cash for flight training as well. So I like to think the work ethic is there too. I'm doing whatever I can to make a PPL happen. There's no crying and "why me" going on here. I understand my position and what I need to do to be where I want to.

I'm banking on my physical attendance to the units and introducing myself well in order to get an interview by explaining much of these things. Then, if I land an interview, I'm hoping the passion shines through along with my dedication. Are my chances slim? Yes. But that's not going to stop me from giving everything I've got. And if I need to apply multiple times to each unit until I get picked up because for some reason AD doesn't, then so be it. I'll come back each time with more flight hours and a better packet.

[7thokage]

I am absolutely 100% sure this is what I'm meant to do. Heavy units don't interest me. I have considered the possibility of enlisting with a unit to gain experience and get to know the squadron. I understand totally about their money being a wash, so it makes sense they would be more choosey. I had a 94 Pilot AFOQT and everything else was high 80's. My TBAS w/ 0 FO was a 65, and although I'm not sure what the max is as they keep the equation secret, I'm told the max is a 70. I am applying to AD Navy and AF as well. My GPA for my M.S I finished in Dec. was a 4.0. I recently started door dashing for extra money *after* my normal 8 to 5 job and on weekends for extra cash for flight training as well. So I like to think the work ethic is there too. I'm doing whatever I can to make a PPL happen. There's no crying and "why me" going on here. I understand my position and what I need to do to be where I want to.
I'm banking on my physical attendance to the units and introducing myself well in order to get an interview by explaining much of these things. Then, if I land an interview, I'm hoping the passion shines through along with my dedication. Are my chances slim? Yes. But that's not going to stop me from giving everything I've got. And if I need to apply multiple times to each unit until I get picked up because for some reason AD doesn't, then so be it. I'll come back each time with more flight hours and a better packet.

The max PCSM at zero hours is like 90 right now. Before the change it was in the 80’s


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[red]

20 minutes ago, 7thokage said:

 

 

The max PCSM at zero hours is like 90 right now. Before the change it was in the 80’s


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Damn now I feel even worse. Didn’t get enough hours in to get the next flight hours bracket before the changes, can’t update my score after the PCSM changes because I had over the new cap 60

[tbro96]

40 minutes ago, 7thokage said:

 

 

The max PCSM at zero hours is like 90 right now. Before the change it was in the 80’s


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According to Bogidope,

"Empirical evidence seems to indicate that a PCSM score of approximately 70 is now the highest achievable with no flying hours."

https://bogidope.com/upt/the-pilot-candidate-selection-method-pcsm-score-explained-part-2/

 

This is what I am referencing. It was the only thing I have read. Where did you find out it was a 90?

[7thokage]

According to Bogidope,
"Empirical evidence seems to indicate that a PCSM score of approximately 70 is now the highest achievable with no flying hours."
https://bogidope.com/upt/the-pilot-candidate-selection-method-pcsm-score-explained-part-2/
 
This is what I am referencing. It was the only thing I have read. Where did you find out it was a 90?

They’re wrong. Referencing my own 79 (previous system) at zero hours and another’s 82 at zero hours.

Under new system, seen two 90’s at zero.


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[RocketDriver]

6 hours ago, tbro96 said:

I am absolutely 100% sure this is what I'm meant to do. Heavy units don't interest me. I have considered the possibility of enlisting with a unit to gain experience and get to know the squadron. I understand totally about their money being a wash, so it makes sense they would be more choosey. I had a 94 Pilot AFOQT and everything else was high 80's. My TBAS w/ 0 FO was a 65, and although I'm not sure what the max is as they keep the equation secret, I'm told the max is a 70. I am applying to AD Navy and AF as well. My GPA for my M.S I finished in Dec. was a 4.0. I recently started door dashing for extra money *after* my normal 8 to 5 job and on weekends for extra cash for flight training as well. So I like to think the work ethic is there too. I'm doing whatever I can to make a PPL happen. There's no crying and "why me" going on here. I understand my position and what I need to do to be where I want to.

I'm banking on my physical attendance to the units and introducing myself well in order to get an interview by explaining much of these things. Then, if I land an interview, I'm hoping the passion shines through along with my dedication. Are my chances slim? Yes. But that's not going to stop me from giving everything I've got. And if I need to apply multiple times to each unit until I get picked up because for some reason AD doesn't, then so be it. I'll come back each time with more flight hours and a better packet.

You're doing all the right things then. My only advice would be to spend more time researching heavy missions before writing them off. Flying Herks or C-17s is a lot cooler than not flying for the military at all, plus you'll get a lot more flight time. If you're willing to go active duty there's already a very high chance you won't fly fighters, so it would be beneficial to look at some of the heavy guard units with interesting missions (e.g. HC-130 or MC-130) and weigh the certainty of flying those birds against the uncertainty of getting stuck with something even less appealing to you if you don't do well in UPT.