Russian Ukraine shenanigans

[Negatory]

5 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

1. As a factual matter the statement from Tucker is correct.  Ukraine is not a democracy, the central government does not respect or protect rights of cultural Russians living in the east, and free speech and freedom of the press do not exist.  

2. that does not mean Russia is good by any means, just that reality is complicated.

3. Love or hate Fox, they are expressing what CNN/MSNBC are ignoring: the majority of our country opposes US participation in conflict with Russia over Ukraine.  

Of course it’s factually correct, but there is little substance beyond that. Your point that Ukraine doesn’t perfectly mirror our nation is no argument that they are not worth protecting or bringing democracy to.

Other nations that weren’t American style democracies: Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Lebanon, Cuba, Cambodia, Grenada, Libya, Panama, Iraq, Kuwait, Somalia, Bosnia, Serbia, Afghanistan, Yemen, Pakistan, Syria. Love it or hate it, engaging in the world for the last 70 years is what allowed us such an influence on it. What on earth is the justification to only protect democracies?

We get to choose how to exert influence. It is our choice to expand and protect the free world and our sphere of influence or to allow functional autocrats like Putin and Xi to do it. It’s not easy to do that.

Here’s an actual opinion. We should have peacekeeping troops protecting Kyiv and Southern Ukraine right now. It’s a question of whether we want to allow this behavior or not. There may be justification, no matter how shitty, for Russia to attempt reunification of the Eastern sects. Fine, whatever. There is no justification or for further aggression other than “we want a land bridge to Crimea and we will take what we want because we can threaten you with nukes and the US isn’t going to do anything about it.”

Edited February 22, 2022 by Negatory

[hockeydork]

I doubt US Troops will be put in Ukraine, right move or not, it just won't happen with the current American appetite. Economic warfare, leveraging US production capabilities, is our best bet to make this a historical mistake for Russia. Isn't Siemens a leader in wind turbines? Tell the Germans to go ramp turbine production as if they were at war to offset the loss in Russian gas. Than tell them to cut that pipeline in half, and if they dont, we'll bomb it. 

Edited February 22, 2022 by hockeydork

[tac airlifter]

1 hour ago, Negatory said:

Other nations that weren’t American style democracies: Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Lebanon, Cuba, Cambodia, Grenada, Libya, Panama, Iraq, Kuwait, Somalia, Bosnia, Serbia, Afghanistan, Yemen, Pakistan, Syria. Love it or hate it, engaging in the world for the last 70 years is what allowed us such an influence on it. What on earth is the justification to only protect democracies?

Our “influence” has not been positive in many of those locations.  Our history, especially our recent history in Afghanistan, should give you serious pause before committing to action.  Here’s my actual opinion since it appears you want that: we the people are owed a debate about this topic in Congress before embarking upon a course we cannot change.

I may or may not agree with your statements above, I don’t know because I lack a sufficient grasp of the facts. And we’ve been doing this a lot lately: rushing haphazardly from one decision to another without stopping, fact gathering, fact checking and thinking.  It’s not working out great, and I propose a more methodical approach to serious issues.

[fire4effect]

Honestly, I hope the Ukranians have some who hunker down and let the heavy stuff pass and make sure their mission in life is to kill these and anything like them.

[uhhello]

55 minutes ago, fire4effect said:

Honestly, I hope the Ukranians have some who hunker down and let the heavy stuff pass and make sure their mission in life is to kill these and anything like them.

Did a few visits/exchanges with FSU states and their mindset was eye opening.  We're very lucky as Americans to live where we do and what we DON'T have to worry about on a daily basis.  

[Prozac]

7 hours ago, MexicanHouseRULZ said:

Does anyone else find it ironic that the West is discussing carving up another European country for a dictator in Munich?

Wait, whaaa? 😳

[kaputt]

2 hours ago, Prozac said:

Wait, whaaa? 😳

I think he meant the similarities between the Munich Conference in 1938 with Hitler and the other main European players discussing Hitler’s desire to annex the Czech border lands; vs the current ongoing meetings, also taking place in Munich, between many of the same European nations, but this time replace Hitler with Putin, Germany with Russia, and the Czech border territories with the eastern Ukraine ones. 
 

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by kaputt
Can’t type

[Prozac]

Just now, kaputt said:

I think he meant the similarities between the Munich Conference in 1938 with Hitler and the other main European players discussing Hitler’s desire to annex the Czech border lands; vs the current ongoing meetings, also taking place in Munich, between many of the same European nations, but this time replace Hitler with Putin and Germany with Russia. 

Ok, except no one is advocating for appeasing the aggressor in this case. The goal is keeping a sovereign nation whole vice carving it up. 

[StoleIt]

39 minutes ago, Prozac said:

Ok, except no one is advocating for appeasing the aggressor in this case. The goal is keeping a sovereign nation whole vice carving it up. 

Well, technically, isn't inaction a form of appeasement?

And I'm not advocating for conflict...I've enjoyed my 6.9 weeks of "peace" since leaving Afghanistan in such dramatic fashion (but not Iraq/Syria/Africa/etc).

[kaputt]

1 hour ago, Prozac said:

Ok, except no one is advocating for appeasing the aggressor in this case. The goal is keeping a sovereign nation whole vice carving it up. 

I'm not sure it was going that in depth, probably just speaking to the general make-up of the situation that does in many ways resemble the late 1930s.

 

[Negatory]

8 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

Our “influence” has not been positive in many of those locations.  Our history, especially our recent history in Afghanistan, should give you serious pause before committing to action.  Here’s my actual opinion since it appears you want that: we the people are owed a debate about this topic in Congress before embarking upon a course we cannot change.

I may or may not agree with your statements above, I don’t know because I lack a sufficient grasp of the facts. And we’ve been doing this a lot lately: rushing haphazardly from one decision to another without stopping, fact gathering, fact checking and thinking.  It’s not working out great, and I propose a more methodical approach to serious issues.

I appreciate your opinion and agree with a lot of it. We do need a debate in congress. We really need a coherent grand strategy, but we’ve never really had that outside the Cold War.

My point is that the more isolationist we become, the less influence we ultimately will have. You can bet the Chinese will make decisions on Taiwan based on our response to this incursion.

Edited February 23, 2022 by Negatory

[Negatory]

Also lots of folks in these forums afraid to actually throw down with their thoughts but very excited to throw spears at political opponents. Par for the course.

[Sim]

Precedence was set with Kosovo.....just saying the obvious.   

[fire4effect]

19 hours ago, uhhello said:

Did a few visits/exchanges with FSU states and their mindset was eye opening.  We're very lucky as Americans to live where we do and what we DON'T have to worry about on a daily basis.  

Gas, beer, lottery tickets and Slim Jims in one stop. (My redneck showing through) What a great country. 😁 

A long time ago I did a paper on the Battle of the Bulge and how logistics really defined the battle. The Allies advance slowed to a crawl largely because the supply line was so overextended. A closer port like Antwerp was needed as the Allies knew to get supplies forward more efficiently and Hitler and his staff certainly knew it since that was their ultimate objective. I recall a German Officer interviewed after the war said they actually planned to use captured American fuel and came close to doing so. Had they done so they would have made the Meuse River within a day or two. Crazy thing is all of us (civilian and military) are only as combat effective as our fuel supply. Our tanker fleet is anything but stealthy and as I've mentioned in the past I see that as a big vulnerability. I certainly don't pretend to have a solution.

I will say one thing the big element of surprise just isn't what it was in the 1940s. Pearl Harbor I don't see happening because the Japanese Fleet would've been tracked from the time they left port. In Ukraine commercial imagery is more readily available than ever and I wouldn't be shocked if our side is providing a little extra help too. The only thing missing is some Ukranian teenager developing an app modeled on the DUI checkpoint apps here to report the location of Russian Troops/Vehicles in real time.

[SurelySerious]

You’d think the agency would be all over an app like that; something so simple that would frustrate the shit out of an advance.

[uhhello]

Looks like its about to go down per the open source twitter intel 🙂

[Clark Griswold]

Just substitute Putin for Hitler and this Mel Brooks clip fits

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bennynova]

I hope you boys like Eastern Europe in the winter.

[SocialD]

13 minutes ago, bennynova said:

I hope you boys like Eastern Europe in the winter.

 

 

What are we going to do, send them a letter telling them how mad we are at them?  

[bennynova]

7 minutes ago, SocialD said:

 

 

What are we going to do, send them a letter telling them how mad we are at them?  

I was just joking.   
 

Gov and media will just cry about it for a few weeks.   Ain’t nothing gonna happen except Russia’s gonna get some new beachfront property.   

[Sim]

https://gab.com/disclosetv/posts/107851004303404959

Quote

JUST IN - Russian Black Sea Fleet launches amphibious assault on Ukrainian coast lines near Odessa and Mariupol.

Russian troops have reportedly landed in Odessa, others crossing the border into Kharkiv.

 

Looks like the fun started. 

[waveshaper]

36 minutes ago, Sim said:

https://gab.com/disclosetv/posts/107851004303404959

 

Looks like the fun started. 

Ukraine is game to you!?/:>)

https://youtu.be/fzLtF_PxbYw

Edited February 24, 2022 by waveshaper

[Prozac]

2 hours ago, bennynova said:

I was just joking.   
 

Gov and media will just cry about it for a few weeks.   Ain’t nothing gonna happen except Russia’s gonna get some new beachfront property.   

Perhaps. Or perhaps the Russians will be surprised by the bloody nose they receive from Ukrainian resistance. Perhaps the despot Putin will be taken aback when his people revolt as the ruble craters. Perhaps the Russian people will grow increasingly impatient as the security situation on Russia’s western borders becomes more tense, which is the opposite of what Putin has promised. Perhaps the Russian bear will be surprised by the swift and unanimous condemnation of virtually every developed nation in the world. Yes, Russian oligarchs may be drooling over potential new Black Sea dachas, but nobody wants to go to their little party. Fuck them. Fuck Putin. 

[frog]

11 minutes ago, Prozac said:

Fock Putin. 

This. 🇺🇸

Edited February 24, 2022 by frog

[Lord Ratner]

On 2/22/2022 at 2:12 PM, uhhello said:

Did a few visits/exchanges with FSU states and their mindset was eye opening.  We're very lucky as Americans to live where we do and what we DON'T have to worry about on a daily basis.  

Could you elaborate?