Russian Ukraine shenanigans

[BFM this]

 

[Waingro]

41 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

“ Poroshenko said blankets and night-vision goggles from the USA are important, "but one cannot win a war with blankets!"” 

USA Today article from 2014.  

That's weird, I read the whole article and only found the citation pasted below. I'm sure I missed it, can you point me to the verbiage in the article you posted that said we were providing blankets?

"What the White House offered was a military aid package that will provide body armor, helmets, vehicles, night and thermal vision devices, advanced radios, patrol boats, counter-mortar radars, rations, tents and uniforms."

[Lawman]

There’s a cynical part of me that wonders if the Russians are utilizing an updated version of the penal battalion concept they used to fairly good effect in WWII.
 Push the conscript heavy/non Russian (Chechen/Donbas/Luhasensk) units forward to soak up the Ukrainian higher end anti-armor munitions (Javelin, NLAW, AT-14 etc), identify Ukrainian force concentrations, then use follow on echelons to overwhelm depleted Ukrainian infantry through massed artillery strikes and tank heavy mechanized units.  Hope that’s not the case.

There is nothing about the VDV (Airborne) of their 1st Guards guys that got hammered which would qualify as anything resembling a Penal Battalion.

The Russians losing an AN-26 and IL-76 alone would cut a pretty deep swath across some formations that they cannot readily replicate. Same as burning T-80s being seen in social media feeds.

I’m noticing a lot more of these convoys with problems that to the laymen would be easily missed. Non prime movers with tow bars attached to other trucks, Diesel engined trucks/tracks with smoke colors that should cause alarm just hammering in down the road until they catch fire somewhere later. When you see a whole Mech convoy in what is not your rear area being filmed by somebody with absolutely no sign of any kind of set security or flank guard. Why on earth in a line of tanks at a tactical pause are you sitting turrets all facing forward, or have dismounts pushed out watching your vulnerable fixed force… that says a lot about the mindset of how they thought this was gonna go. It also explains why the Ukrainian military is having such luck with complex ambushes against these elements.


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[Prozac]

3 minutes ago, Waingro said:

That's weird, I read the whole article and only found the citation pasted below. I'm sure I missed it, can you point me to the verbiage in the article you posted that said we were providing blankets?

"What the White House offered was a military aid package that will provide body armor, helmets, vehicles, night and thermal vision devices, advanced radios, patrol boats, counter-mortar radars, rations, tents and uniforms."

Does it really matter? The Obama admin refused lethal aid and, in retrospect, that was a mistake. His successor’s attempt to extort political favors in exchange for weapons was a moral abomination, even if weaponry eventually made it to the country. I watched Mitt Romney do an interview on CNN this morning & even that network’s assessment was that he was right and Obama was wrong in 2012. The point is that there is plenty of blame to go around for how we ended up here. None of it matters at this point. We are at a watershed moment in Europe’s history and indeed the World’s. The only thing that matters now is how we move forward from here. This is bigger than a single president or which party happens to hold power at the moment. The choices we make now will affect multiple administrations for years to come, and we need to implement coherent policies that will withstand and transcend political bickering. 

[hockeydork]

7 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

World's largest cargo aircraft was destroyed during a Russian attack on an airfield, Ukrainian minister says

 

Leave it to those tards of re to destroy an important piece of their own heritage. Sick strike bro. Par for the Russian course

Edited February 28, 2022 by hockeydork

[DirkDiggler]

9 minutes ago, Lawman said:

There is nothing about the VDV (Airborne) of their 1st Guards guys that got hammered which would qualify as anything resembling a Penal Battalion.

The Russians losing an AN-26 and IL-76 alone would cut a pretty deep swath across some formations that they cannot readily replicate. Same as burning T-80s being seen in social media feeds.

I’m noticing a lot more of these convoys with problems that to the laymen would be easily missed. Non prime movers with tow bars attached to other trucks, Diesel engined trucks/tracks with smoke colors that should cause alarm just hammering in down the road until they catch fire somewhere later. When you see a whole Mech convoy in what is not your rear area being filmed by somebody with absolutely no sign of any kind of set security or flank guard. Why on earth in a line of tanks at a tactical pause are you sitting turrets all facing forward, or have dismounts pushed out watching your vulnerable fixed force… that says a lot about the mindset of how they thought this was gonna go. It also explains why the Ukrainian military is having such luck with complex ambushes against these elements.


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Those are fair points.  Some of the stuff you mentioned above are outside my ability to notice (MC pilot who thinks tanks are cool), but the lack of a herringbone formation on a stalled Russian armored column did catch my eye.  Also, several videos of Ukrainian infantry openly blasting Russian tanks operating without infantry support seemed real wrong, even to an AF guy.

  Either way, I’ve been very satisfied at the number of burning Russian tracks I’ve woken up to every morning.

[tac airlifter]

10 minutes ago, Waingro said:

That's weird, I read the whole article and only found the citation pasted below. I'm sure I missed it, can you point me to the verbiage in the article you posted that said we were providing blankets?

Sure, you missed the quote from Ukraine’s president saying he wanted more than blankets from the aide package.  The one I highlighted in my link.

Blankets clearly weren’t all that was in the 2014 non-lethal aide package, but he was dissatisfied with the lack of helpful support which he said included blankets. 

Personally I think we stop nitpicking past mistakes & focus on the present— making policy decisions which maximize dead Russians while staying below the threshold of starting WW3.

[Waingro]

2 minutes ago, Prozac said:

Does it really matter? The Obama admin refused lethal aid and, in retrospect, that was a mistake. His successor’s attempt to extort political favors in exchange for weapons was a moral abomination, even if weaponry eventually made it to the country. I watched Mitt Romney do an interview on CNN this morning & even that network’s assessment was that he was right and Obama was wrong in 2012. The point is that there is plenty of blame to go around for how we ended up here. None of it matters at this point. We are at a watershed moment in Europe’s history and indeed the World’s. The only thing that matters now is how we move forward from here. This is bigger than a single president or which party happens to hold power at the moment. The choices we make now will affect multiple administrations for years to come, and we need to implement coherent policies that will withstand and transcend political bickering. 

Sure it matters. A poster overtly stated that sending blankets ended up costing Ukraine possession of Crimea. A pretty bold claim, so I don't think it's too much to ask for verification. Especially since the assertion was made as a defense of The Former Guy withholding security assistance resources because of a personal vendetta. 

There are good arguments about whether or not the Obama administration should have done more sooner with respect to lethal weaponry. History and hindsight sure make it look that way. But words matter, and the previous poster wanted to play some "whataboutism roulette" and lost. 

[Waingro]

5 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

Sure, you missed the quote from Ukraine’s president saying he wanted more than blankets from the aide package.  The one I highlighted in my link.

Blankets clearly weren’t all that was in the 2014 non-lethal aide package, but he was dissatisfied with the lack of helpful support which he said included blankets. 

Personally I think we stop nitpicking past mistakes & focus on the present— making policy decisions which maximize dead Russians while staying below the threshold of starting WW3.

Oh, when the previous poster said that blankets were what cost Ukraine the Crimea, I didn't realize we were speaking in hyperbole. The way he wrote it, it sounded like he was making an actual assertion and actually believed the line about blankets to be true and correct.

Otherwise yeah, it sure looks like lethal assistance should have been on the table years earlier. And yes, and the present fight should be the focus. Seeing the Russian military failures to date has been a pleasant surprise.

[tac airlifter]

1 minute ago, Waingro said:

Oh, when the previous poster said that blankets were what cost Ukraine the Crimea, I didn't realize we were speaking in hyperbole. The way he wrote it, it sounded like he was making an actual assertion and actually believed the line about blankets to be true and correct.

I don’t know about any of that bro.  You asked a direct question and I gave you a direct answer in the form of a sourced quote from Ukraine’s president.  Cheers.

[ClearedHot]

 

 

[brickhistory]

• Quote

  These contributions, with the additional assistance announced by the Vice President today, will total more $15 million to date and support Ukrainian efforts to ensure adequate reception of internally displaced persons (IDP) as well as to facilitate IDP returns when security conditions allow, including through the provision of food, cash, hygiene kits, medicines, and domestic and winter items.  We are also supporting efforts to address the humanitarian needs of vulnerable populations in Luhansk and Donetsk through support for emergency activities including the procurement and distribution of safe drinking water and relief commodities, winterization kits, and other items needed to survive the winter.

  Please note the source:

• https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/2014/11/21/fact-sheet-us-assistance-ukraine

• 

[ClearedHot]

Ukrainians have unleashed their drones...Shocked the Russians let this happen.  Tracking a thread with a LOT of pictures of Russian armor and trucks that are MESSED up.  The Ukrainians are some bad Mo Fos.

[BashiChuni]

they need to press MENU the GPS 20.4 is triggering me

 

 

[DirkDiggler]

8 hours ago, HeloDude said:

Ugh…spending more money (that we don’t have) and potential blood all with the ‘attempt’ (Afghanistan anyone?) at saving Ukraine from Russia?  No thanks.

As I said, there are people in this country who clearly want a fight, and it’s sad.  This isn’t the days of the Cold War, and arguments can be made that all that military build up wasn’t that necessary.  And today…it’s definitely not necessary. It’s about time we focused on our own issues as home—Ukraine is a great distraction.  Not saying it’s not real, just not our problem.  Oh and I was always against the government restrictions on its citizens due to COVID.

Also, when the Ukraine government ordered that their adult males could not leave the country, I became less supportive of their “freedom” than before.  I have always been against conscription—it’s literally slavery.

I really want to make sure I'm not misrepresenting what you posted here.  You're saying that conscription/the draft is equivalent to slavery?  So, if he were alive, you'd be comfortable telling PFC Desmond Dos to his face that his service in WWII was the equivalent of any slave picking cotton in 1864?  

[fire4effect]

2 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

 

 

I wonder if they filled out all their tags. Be very very quiet.....I'm hunting Red Wabbits

 

[HeloDude]

1 hour ago, DirkDiggler said:

I really want to make sure I'm not misrepresenting what you posted here.  You're saying that conscription/the draft is equivalent to slavery?  So, if he were alive, you'd be comfortable telling PFC Desmond Dos to his face that his service in WWII was the equivalent of any slave picking cotton in 1864?  

If you force someone into a job/life that they don’t want, what do you call it?

[Wendell]

13 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

If you force someone into a job/life that they don’t want, what do you call it?

Conscription…

 

con·scrip·tion

/kənˈskripSH(ə)n/

Learn to pronounce

 

noun

1. compulsory enlistment for state service, typically into the armed forces.

Edited February 28, 2022 by Wendell

[HeloDude]

11 minutes ago, Wendell said:

Conscription…

 

con·scrip·tion

/kənˈskripSH(ə)n/

Learn to pronounce

 

noun

1. compulsory enlistment for state service, typically into the armed forces.

Like I said…slavery.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/reason.com/volokh/2018/10/19/why-mandatory-national-service-is-both-u/%3famp

[Danger41]

2 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

they need to press MENU the GPS 20.4 is triggering me

 

 

Brought me back to the IP days with that Chinese water torture blinking there and me needing every fiber of self-control to not yell at the CP about not seeing that.

[Prozac]

8 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

Like I said…slavery.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/reason.com/volokh/2018/10/19/why-mandatory-national-service-is-both-u/%3famp

Please. Any country on the planet that is facing no-shit potential annihilation would act in the same manner, including yours. 

[Wendell]

12 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

Like I said…slavery.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/reason.com/volokh/2018/10/19/why-mandatory-national-service-is-both-u/%3famp

That’s cool but the Supreme Court has upheld the legality of the draft and selective service registration several times. Slavery is an evil stain on a society, conscription is different.  Plus we are talking about the Ukraine in a war for national survival…

Edited February 28, 2022 by Wendell

[Lord Ratner]

12 hours ago, brickhistory said:

For those eager for No Fly Zones or pushing Putin into a nuclear corner, just stop.

If any nation outside of Ukraine pulls a trigger on anything, that is an act of war.  If that's your intent, ok, are you ready for the full monty?  Air assets are supremely vulnerable.  Pretty easy to make them go boom on the ground.  And how long does it take to bring in the combined arms to make a real war happen?

Putin, for whatever his reasons, has pushed all in on this.  To think he won't pull the nuclear trigger if he loses or is cornered by outside nations is willful ignorance.  He's not likely to nuke London or Paris or Berlin, but any target in Ukraine or another none-NATO country is vulnerable.  Do you really think the West will respond with a nuke when it's not on them?  I don't.

Powerful megalomaniacs have a history of going scorched earth when they are cornered whether in a bunker in Berlin, a field in Belgium, or a steppe in Ukraine.

Toss the Ukrainians all the weapons and logistics they can use and more.  Sanction the sh1t out of Putin and comrades, make it hurt financially to them personally and this can stop.  Bleed him out and stack his casualties to the moon.  He will be bumped off by his own side.  If we turn him into a hero/martyr, we get a lot of that for us.  

Go full John Wayne and it won't end without a full, abrupt halt.  With other non-friendly nations watching and planning accordingly.

 

I actually think this is a ridiculous take.

 

The entire nuclear enterprise is predicated on no one launching a nuke. If Russia launches a nuke, it may not result in a nuclear response, but it will result in a complete reframing of the worldview of nuclear deterrence. In particular, I suspect it would lead to the West determining that nuclear weapons can no longer be allowed in any number amongst our enemies.

 

That is an outcome that China most assuredly does not want. A nuclear attack makes any economic sacrifice suddenly palatable, and you would expect the West to completely isolate both China, North Korea, Iran, and Russia from the world economy in the event it is decided that no one can have nukes anymore. 

 

If, and I think it is a spectacular if, Putin were to use nukes against anyone, I think you would see China immediately ally with the United States and the West for the purposes of utterly and completely decimating Russia as a global player.

 

We may seem weak in this new and sensitive world. But our enemies have not forgotten what happens when the United States finds resolve, and our adversaries have been very careful over the last 30 years to avoid crossing any lines. Nuking and innocent country would bring out the best in Americans, which would be the worst possible outcome for anyone in our way.

[uhhello]

6 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

I actually think this is a ridiculous take.

 

The entire nuclear enterprise is predicated on no one launching a nuke. If Russia launches a nuke, it may not result in a nuclear response, but it will result in a complete reframing of the worldview of nuclear deterrence. In particular, I suspect it would lead to the West determining that nuclear weapons can no longer be allowed in any number amongst our enemies.

 

That is an outcome that China most assuredly does not want. A nuclear attack makes any economic sacrifice suddenly palatable, and you would expect the West to completely isolate both China, North Korea, Iran, and Russia from the world economy in the event it is decided that no one can have nukes anymore. 

 

If, and I think it is a spectacular if, Putin were to use nukes against anyone, I think you would see China immediately ally with the United States and the West for the purposes of utterly and completely decimating Russia as a global player.

 

We may seem weak in this new and sensitive world. But our enemies have not forgotten what happens when the United States finds resolve, and our adversaries have been very careful over the last 30 years to avoid crossing any lines. Nuking and innocent country would bring out the best in Americans, which would be the worst possible outcome for anyone in our way.

At this point, I'd be more worried for the Russian citizens when the birds cook in the silos.  

[Lord Ratner]

10 hours ago, HeloDude said:

Ugh…spending more money (that we don’t have) and potential blood all with the ‘attempt’ (Afghanistan anyone?) at saving Ukraine from Russia?  No thanks.

As I said, there are people in this country who clearly want a fight, and it’s sad.  This isn’t the days of the Cold War, and arguments can be made that all that military build up wasn’t that necessary.  And today…it’s definitely not necessary. It’s about time we focused on our own issues as home—Ukraine is a great distraction.  Not saying it’s not real, just not our problem.  Oh and I was always against the government restrictions on its citizens due to COVID.

Also, when the Ukraine government ordered that their adult males could not leave the country, I became less supportive of their “freedom” than before.  I have always been against conscription—it’s literally slavery.

So we shouldn't defend them, and they shouldn't be forced to defend themselves?

 

This is where libertarianism always hits the wall. Our "restraint" has led to this escalation of tensions. And the solution is more restraint?

 

We have an incredibly vested interest in a stable world. How libertarians continually forget this is a mystery to me.