HeloDude Posted February 28, 2022 Posted February 28, 2022 11 minutes ago, Wendell said: That’s cool but the Supreme Court has upheld the legality of the draft and selective service registration several times. Slavery is an evil stain on a society, conscription is different. Plus we are talking about the Ukraine in a war for national survival… Korematsu vs United States I guess the imprisonment of Japanese Americans was cool too…you know, because of the Supreme Court. You can be for freedom and liberty or you can be for conscription—but you can’t be for both. 2
Wendell Posted February 28, 2022 Posted February 28, 2022 (edited) 6 minutes ago, HeloDude said: Korematsu vs United States I guess the imprisonment of Japanese Americans was cool too…you know, because of the Supreme Court. You can be for freedom and liberty or you can be for conscription—but you can’t be for both. There are many individual cases that you can point to that the Supreme Court has gotten wrong in retrospect but when it comes to Selective Service and Conscription they have been consistent. I’m just a pilot, not a lawyer but I am also able to realize their is a time and place for conscription and it is different then slavery. And this thread is about dead Russians, many of whom are conscripts… Edited February 28, 2022 by Wendell
DirkDiggler Posted February 28, 2022 Posted February 28, 2022 52 minutes ago, HeloDude said: If you force someone into a job/life that they don’t want, what do you call it? Necessity, based on preserving a way of life and a set of ideals that's morally justifiable. Not preserving an economic model, or war booty, or the subservience of one race over another. So I'll ask again, would you, as current member of the US military, tell a living WWII veteran (I'll drop the MoH example), to his face that his service in WWII constituted/was equal to that of a slave? 1
HeloDude Posted February 28, 2022 Posted February 28, 2022 Just now, Wendell said: There are many individual cases that you can point to that the Supreme Court has gotten wrong in retrospect but when it comes to Selective Service and Conscription they have been consistent. I’m just a pilot, not a lawyer but I am also able to realize their is a time and place for conscription and it is different then slavery. We disagree. Again, either you have freedom and liberty to decide not to do a certain job/fight in a war, or you don’t.
HeloDude Posted February 28, 2022 Posted February 28, 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, DirkDiggler said: Necessity, based on preserving a way of life and a set of ideals that's morally justifiable. Not preserving an economic model, or war booty, or the subservience of one race over another. So I'll ask again, would you, as current member of the US military, tell a living WWII veteran (I'll drop the MoH example), to his face that his service in WWII constituted/was equal to that of a slave? Did he want to serve or fight—yes or no? If not, then most definitely. As for “preserving a way of life and a set of ideals”…according to whom? What if your way of life/ideals is to not be forced to fight in a war? I take it none of you commenting have read the Reason article I linked… Edited February 28, 2022 by HeloDude
Lawman Posted February 28, 2022 Posted February 28, 2022 No point in going Point by point because this doesn’t matter. I’ll be Mulder, you can be Scully, and we’ll drink 10 beers about it someday. But speaking of gullibility, I gotta dip out for a bit to extend my car’s warranty on my way to a guided Bigfoot sighting expedition. Great deal!I just gotta make the connection with your post and the meme that just started up on social media…Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 1
Wendell Posted February 28, 2022 Posted February 28, 2022 (edited) 9 minutes ago, HeloDude said: Did he want to serve fight—yes or not? If not, then most definitely. I take it none of you commenting have read the Reason article I linked… I’ve browsed it but I don’t give two shits about their argument…conscription is not slavery. Both are involuntary but different. Can we get back to dead Russians please..I’ll start Edited February 28, 2022 by Wendell 2
Lord Ratner Posted February 28, 2022 Posted February 28, 2022 19 minutes ago, uhhello said: At this point, I'd be more worried for the Russian citizens when the birds cook in the silos. Yep. Hard to imagine this incredible level of incompetence on display hasn't found its way into Russia's nuclear Enterprise. 1
Lord Ratner Posted February 28, 2022 Posted February 28, 2022 (edited) 32 minutes ago, HeloDude said: Korematsu vs United States I guess the imprisonment of Japanese Americans was cool too…you know, because of the Supreme Court. You can be for freedom and liberty or you can be for conscription—but you can’t be for both. Could you provide an example of societies that promote freedom and liberty, but did so without conscription? Honestly, this is starting to sound like a libertarian children's story rather than a realistic assessment on human nature and societal construction. Edited February 28, 2022 by Lord Ratner 1
McJay Pilot Posted February 28, 2022 Posted February 28, 2022 I mean… not to COMPLETELY derail this thread, but conscripts get paid. Just sayin’. Anyway, here’s Wonderwall… 🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦
nsplayr Posted February 28, 2022 Posted February 28, 2022 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said: Honestly, this is starting to sound like a libertarian children's story rather than a realistic assessment on human nature societal construction. ^^this A big reason why the Libertarian Party will never succeed in the US is because too many libertarians who otherwise have some valid points are then also weirdo maximalists who will tell WWII veterans who were drafted that they were slaves 🤷♂️ 😶 To tie back into Ukraine (and this is shamelessly stolen from reddit) Quote "Putin, Biden and Zelensky are all in a hot air balloon and it’s starting to lose altitude. They need to lose some weight to stop from crashing. Putin throws out a bottle of vodka and says, “Don’t worry I’ve got too much of that in my country anyway.” Biden throws out an AR-15 and says, “Don’t worry I’ve got too much of that in my country anyway.” Zelensky throws out Putin and says, “Don’t worry I’ve got too much of that in my country anyway,” and looks at Biden smugly as they crash anyways due to the massive weight of Zelensky's balls." Edited February 28, 2022 by nsplayr 3 4
Lord Ratner Posted February 28, 2022 Posted February 28, 2022 7 minutes ago, McJay Pilot said: I mean… not to COMPLETELY derail this thread, but conscripts get paid. Just sayin’. Anyway, here’s Wonderwall… 🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦 Yeah, almost like conscript and slave are not the same thing. 2 2
DirkDiggler Posted February 28, 2022 Posted February 28, 2022 (edited) 37 minutes ago, HeloDude said: Did he want to serve or fight—yes or no? If not, then most definitely. As for “preserving a way of life and a set of ideals”…according to whom? What if your way of life/ideals is to not be forced to fight in a war? I take it none of you commenting have read the Reason article I linked… Fair. I'll stop with the thread derail. We're going to have to agree to disagree on this then. I read your posted article; I don't think that the author adequately addressed conscription in the time of a emergency/war that actually threatens the survival of the state/Constitution of the United States. The article in question was mainly targeted at mandatory national service and/or the draft in a peacetime environment (he argues that the legal logic behind mandatory national service violates the 13th amendment, but doesn't provide further rationale with regards to an example like WWII or the destruction of the US). Additionally, the logic of this article is a specific opinion on the US constitution, not another country and not a world war. Edited February 28, 2022 by DirkDiggler Grammar
Bigred Posted February 28, 2022 Posted February 28, 2022 4 hours ago, DirkDiggler said: Those are fair points. Some of the stuff you mentioned above are outside my ability to notice (MC pilot who thinks tanks are cool), but the lack of a herringbone formation on a stalled Russian armored column did catch my eye. Also, several videos of Ukrainian infantry openly blasting Russian tanks operating without infantry support seemed real wrong, even to an AF guy. Either way, I’ve been very satisfied at the number of burning Russian tracks I’ve woken up to every morning. I’ve got a pretty good grasp of ground combat (not nearly as good as Lawman). This isn’t tank on tank warfare so what has really surprised me are the videos of zero infantry support for the armor. Combined arms utilization during movement through and via a somewhat limited selection of LOCs is what would get the tanks to the front line. The Ukrainians are having a field day picking off the heavy equipment.
Bigred Posted February 28, 2022 Posted February 28, 2022 Reports of former US SOF on the ground in the Ukraine. No way of verifying if true but the pictures I saw, they ‘looked’ the part in terms of gear and weaponry and are reported to have inflicted serious damage to Russian formations. Of course, it could be the Ukrainians that were trained/equipped by US SOF. It does beg the question, what happens if a US dude gets rolled up by the Russians?
FLEA Posted February 28, 2022 Posted February 28, 2022 21 minutes ago, Bigred said: Reports of former US SOF on the ground in the Ukraine. No way of verifying if true but the pictures I saw, they ‘looked’ the part in terms of gear and weaponry and are reported to have inflicted serious damage to Russian formations. Of course, it could be the Ukrainians that were trained/equipped by US SOF. It does beg the question, what happens if a US dude gets rolled up by the Russians? There are former US SOF dudes who were part of TF Pineapple who are in the Ukraine now doing the exact same thing (evacuating Americans, LPRs, and people who otherwise warrant evacuation). Not evacuating many Ukrainians I think though.
Bigred Posted February 28, 2022 Posted February 28, 2022 42 minutes ago, FLEA said: There are former US SOF dudes who were part of TF Pineapple who are in the Ukraine now doing the exact same thing (evacuating Americans, LPRs, and people who otherwise warrant evacuation). Not evacuating many Ukrainians I think though. Good point and I guess it’s not surprising when I think about it. If any foreign forces are gonna fight in Ukraine those are probably the best ones to do it.
ClearedHot Posted February 28, 2022 Posted February 28, 2022 Russia using Cluster Munitions (not sure if air dropped or artillery) in an urban area. Cluster.mp4 They splashed another Helo (Mi-35/24). Helomp4.mp4 Ukrainians captured a SAM system. Sam.mp4
HeloDude Posted February 28, 2022 Posted February 28, 2022 (edited) 8 hours ago, nsplayr said: ^^this A big reason why the Libertarian Party will never succeed in the US is because too many libertarians who otherwise have some valid points are then also weirdo maximalists who will tell WWII veterans who were drafted that they were slaves 🤷♂️ 😶 To tie back into Ukraine (and this is shamelessly stolen from reddit) Well…I mean I didn’t say that requiring an ID to vote is Jim Crow 2.0 like the Dems, or that our entire country is inherently racist, but sure, the libertarians are the weirdos. I’ll never apologize for being for individual liberty, and conscription is anything but that. Remove the emotion, and ask yourself why you think it’s ok when the state forces you do something when you’re just minding your own business and not hurting anyone vs when an individual forces you to do something? Edited February 28, 2022 by HeloDude
fire4effect Posted February 28, 2022 Posted February 28, 2022 Found some very old Soviet Order of Battle references. No idea how accurate it is in the current environment but doctrinally an MRD (Motorized Rifle Division) has ~271 Tanks (13K troops total) and a TD (Tank Division) has ~328 (11K troops total).
Lord Ratner Posted February 28, 2022 Posted February 28, 2022 56 minutes ago, HeloDude said: Remove the emotion, and ask yourself why you think it’s ok when the state forces you do something when you’re just minding your own business and not hurting anyone vs when an individual forces you to do something? Because society simply doesn't work without it. Not yet at least. Libertarianism is a fantastic philosophy if you already live in a society that values individual liberty and freedom. There aren't a ton of those societies today, and historically the number of them is vanishingly small. They have not, and do not create themselves using the very values they end up instilling. This is fairly obvious, as the United States has relied on conscription while being the undisputed champion of individualism and freedom. Libertarians fall into the same trap that progressive elites fall into. There are a lot of people who are not, under any circumstances, going to face real risk in support of libertarian values. They aren't like you. You joined the military. But those very values that make their lives unfathomably better cannot survive defenseless, and they're simply aren't enough people like you willing to voluntarily defend them. So would the world be better off without free societies at all? Or is this just another instance where black and white thinking fails upon first contact with reality? And if your answer is still "it's not worth defending if people won't defend it voluntarily" then I see no point in considering your philosophy at all, as the alternative to not defending them is a barbarism that is obviously worse than the "slavery" of conscription.
HeloDude Posted February 28, 2022 Posted February 28, 2022 25 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said: And if your answer is still "it's not worth defending if people won't defend it voluntarily" then I see no point in considering your philosophy at all, as the alternative to not defending them is a barbarism that is obviously worse than the "slavery" of conscription. That’s most definitely still my answer. You can’t stand for the values of individual liberty when you’re literally using the opposite to keep those values. Birth rates—if they were to be on a serious decline, they can eventually have a very negative impact to society, right? That negative impact could very well in turn negatively impact the US’s ability to promote liberty and freedom across the world. So should the government force women to have children in order to set the birth rate to what the government needs/desires? You can laugh all you want, but if you’re willing to force an innocent adult male to stand in front of gun fire for what the state says is the security of the country (ummm Vietnam…ugh), then you have to ask yourself what else the state can force upon innocent citizens under the same concept of “security of the country”. This is a tough conversation to have because the majority of the country doesn’t want to believe that the power of the state to enforce X program to protect the country (which they support)…that this same power could be used to go against something they disagree with under the same desire for security. Just because this below was ordered by the state for the security of its nation, doesn’t change what it really was… https://apnews.com/article/tokyo-ap-top-news-cabinets-world-war-ii-japan-3dc00af0e6c618791eb4683d6807de64
Wendell Posted February 28, 2022 Posted February 28, 2022 (edited) Meanwhile the Russian government hasn’t acknowledged any deaths. https://www.rferl.org/amp/ukraine-russia-pows-prisoners-identification-dead/31726619.html Edited February 28, 2022 by Wendell
ClearedHot Posted February 28, 2022 Posted February 28, 2022 29 minutes ago, Wendell said: Meanwhile the Russian government hasn’t acknowledged any deaths. https://www.rferl.org/amp/ukraine-russia-pows-prisoners-identification-dead/31726619.html The Turkish drones Ukraine bought are inflicting a LOT of losses and casualties on the Russians. Boom.mp4
fire4effect Posted February 28, 2022 Posted February 28, 2022 11 minutes ago, ClearedHot said: The Turkish drones Ukraine bought are inflicting a LOT of losses and casualties on the Russians. Found the "Ghost of Ukraine?" Their version of a Hellfire?
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