Russian Ukraine shenanigans

[hockeydork]

25 minutes ago, FLEA said:

Your interest isn't the lives of our citizens though. You have argued at every corner your interest is Ukranian freedom and you are willing to sacrifice our own country to a pyre to insure it. So for yourself. 

So whats your plan to fix all of this, just curious. Make it clear that any country with nukes can go invade and take what they want? In that case let's go get Cuba, it's too close to our borders. We feel threatened. 

[hockeydork]

6 minutes ago, FLEA said:

You made a bunch of claims with zero evidence so I'm just going to ignore them as your poorly informed opinions. 

You have zero ability to read people. Putin is a shark, and a damn good one. 

Edited March 4, 2022 by hockeydork

[goingkinetic]

1 minute ago, FLEA said:

Look I know this is hard for you to fathom but at the end of the day, 1 pilot and 1 plane is not winning a war. A war is a statewide effort. That's what total war is, it's the whole country unifying as one apparatus to win. US industry and academia definitely won the war for us. There are not many serious thinkers who think otherwise. It was the first time in history we saw the advantage of literally just being able to throw money on a fire until the fire went out. It doesn't mean the people that actually fought aren't heroes or were valuable, but the strategy the US used to win WW2, and literally every conflict we've planned for after that, are heavily reliant on the capability to gen up industry to reconstitute losses. Why do you think we folded on the F-15EX? Did we really need it? Or did we recognize and industrial advantage to Boeing keeping additional fighter production lines open? 

Academia fell out in Vietnam but came back after GWOT. Prior to Vietnam you use to no kidding be able to major in Military Science and Strategy at most US universities. The war/defense department were largely staffed by civilians and policy makers would get degrees in it. The military would pull key academics from universities to solve hard problems and the imbed them with industry to drive technological solutions. 

This is the American way of war man. This is how we fight. Money and technology. I'm not sure how else I can explain it to you. 

 

 

Flea, I agree with you in long protracted conflicts. There is a reason Yamamoto said they had awoken a sleeping giant.

The error in your logic is discounting pitched battles which have the potential to end a war. Hastings 1066, Waterloo 1815 and the Battle of Britain are examples. Guess what, all of those battles outcomes were due to the individual fighting man. I guess youre just the type of McNamara commander that sees personnel as numbers in an actuaries math at checkmate.

[hockeydork]

10 minutes ago, FLEA said:

This is the American way of war man. This is how we fight. Money and technology. I'm not sure how else I can explain it to you. 

Yes your are exactly right. And because we are a free society, more people are allowed to reach their maximum potential, rather than exist in a police state where government distorts reality. And because of that, we have the patriotism, the smarts, the money and the resolve to conduct economic warfare with the Russians for slaughtering a bunch of Ukrainians who did nothing to deserve the fate they are getting.

[BashiChuni]

The war mongering on this board is sickening. If you want to start world war fucking three over Ukraine you’re a fucking idiot. 
 

 

[goingkinetic]

Strange some of us want to stop war crimes and protect the innocent. So sickening.

[hockeydork]

4 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

The war mongering on this board is sickening. If you want to start world war ing three over Ukraine you’re a ing idiot. 
 

 

Not once have I war mongered. I made it abundantly clear that the best way to handle this is to crush Russia economically while helping the Ukrainians defend themselevs, which for F*cks sake man they have a right too. Just like you are probably pro gun so you can defend your own home. Find me a post where someone said we should go sink the Black Sea fleet.

The US needs to play the long game here. Let the Russians dig their own grave. They are a floundering super power because of their crappy, selfish leadership. These are the people who don't care about killing their own people, it's in the process of coming back to haunt them.

[BashiChuni]

5 minutes ago, goingkinetic said:

Strange some of us want to stop war crimes and protect the innocent. So sickening.

Great foreign policy 

“protect the innocent”

China is committing war crimes on the Uyghurs and putting them in camps we should attack China!

Gotta weigh pros and cons. The pros don’t outweigh the cons and it’s not even close. 

[goingkinetic]

Thats like your opinion man

[BashiChuni]

1 minute ago, hockeydork said:

Not once have I war mongered. I made it abundantly clear that the best way to handle this is to crush Russia economically while helping the Ukrainians defend themselevs, which for F*cks sake man they have a right too. Just like you are probably pro gun so you can defend your own home. Find me a post where someone said we should go sink the Black Sea fleet.

The US needs to play the long game here. Let the Russians dig their own grave. They are a floundering super power because of their crappy, selfish leadership. These are the people who don't care about killing their own people, it's in the process of coming back to haunt them.

Agree with your post. They have a right sure. I can show you a US rep that is advocating a no fly zone, a US senator openly calling to assassinate Putin, and a former NATO ambassador advocating to arm the Ukrainians with A-10s. Those people help make and shape US policy not you or I. Scary. 
 

at this point I agree best COA is to let Russia get bogged down in Ukraine and spend their blood and treasure. This will weaken Putin both domestically and internationally. That is in the best interest of the US. 

[brickhistory]

Something just seems "odd" with a couple of the most vociferous posters.

I'm not smart enough to recognize the "why," but it sure does seem like it.

Of course, we have a couple of posters who are happy with the self-inflicted COVID vaccine casualties that an enemy couldn't do much worse...

[FLEA]

10 minutes ago, goingkinetic said:

Thats like your opinion man

Yes we all know you don't value the lives of American innocents just Ukranian innocents, you've already said as much. 

Or basically you said, "I'm willing to intervene militarily to protect Ukranian innocents even if that means subjecting US civilians to the massive casualty of nuclear war." 

[goingkinetic]

Brickhistory, BhasiChuni and you all assume there will be a nuclear war if we stand up to Putin. Who has been affected by PsyOps? To whose benefit is it to assume military intervention=nuclear war?

Edited March 4, 2022 by goingkinetic
Multi-tasking

[FLEA]

1 minute ago, goingkinetic said:

Brickhistory, BhasiChuni and you all assume there will be a nuclear war if we stand up to Putin. Who has been affected by PsyOps? To whose benefit is it to assume military benefit=nuclear war?

It is an assumption, but so is presuming he won't use Nukes. Bashi and I are making a risk based analysis. The risk that he does outweighs the cost of letting him sit at the big kid table and talk to grownups, which is all he really wants. Putin has way more reasons to use nuclear weapons than to not use them. He's also been working diligently to modernize his arsenal where we have not been until very recently. That demonstrates he has considered future planning for what efforts he was going to make that might justify their use. Putin also has the advantage of a cemented leadership, his own. He knows US Presidents change every four years and he can always wait for a weak one (like our current) to start pressing the nuclear triggers. 

[BashiChuni]

11 minutes ago, goingkinetic said:

Brickhistory, BhasiChuni and you all assume there will be a nuclear war if we stand up to Putin. Who has been affected by PsyOps? To whose benefit is it to assume military intervention=nuclear war?

Even if it’s not a nuclear war, a conventional war with a desperate Putin would be HORRIFIC and it’s something I don’t want to see. 
 

you’re crazy to just walk in to a conflict with Russia so confidently 

[goingkinetic]

What is our defense budget compared to Russia? Didn't Flea just say if you can throw more money at the fire you'll win.

[FLEA]

Just now, goingkinetic said:

What is our defense budget compared to Russia? Didn't Flea just say if you can throw more money at the fire you'll win.

WW2 was won with US money, British Steel and Russian blood, or so they say. 

Its about more than budget and spending. That's our strategy it's not theirs. They conscript, and Russian doctrine literally just allows them to throw waves and waves of bodies. 

It's going to be bloody, for everyone, and there is going to be a lot of scorched earth over Europe when it happens. 

Forget helping the Ukranian people, there won't be a Ukranian people after this. The ones that make it out will have diaspora'd while the entire east European plane is turned into a no man's land. 

[hockeydork]

Goingkinetic, you'll win but not for free. Well be the last ones standing but not until after the bodies are stacked sky high to the ceiling. I applaud your willingness to want to go kick the shit out of the people doing this and make them stop, but this is a haste makes waste situation. Innocent people are going to die, Vlad is the one who decided that. It is going to happen. There is no going back. We need to be patient, we need to play to our strength as a free society, which is our ability to inovate and crush the Russian government so bad economically, that it's own people goes after them. 

[BashiChuni]

4 minutes ago, goingkinetic said:

What is our defense budget compared to Russia? Didn't Flea just say if you can throw more money at the fire you'll win.

Jesus fucking Christ dude we would win, but what cost? Are you cool with thousands of American dead and wounded? For what?

That cost isn’t worth it. Ukraine NEVER has been worth it from a US perspective. 

[goingkinetic]

As I said the world has decided the Ukraine is expendable. I hope you are all right and he stops there. He's 2 for 2 on invading non-nato members. What about Taiwan, what message are we sending? We won't sanction Russian oil, what about sanction chinese everything? Every American should want American Food, Energy, Resource (Particularly microchip) independence, or the economic part of the DIME model is pointless.

Edited March 4, 2022 by goingkinetic
still muti-tasking

[hockeydork]

I think Russian oil should 100 percent be sanctioned.

[hockeydork]

7 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

Jesus ing Christ dude we would win, but what cost? Are you cool with thousands of American dead and wounded? For what?

That cost isn’t worth it. Ukraine NEVER has been worth it from a US perspective. 

Strategically you are right and I agree, emotionally you are not. I think we care a lot more than putin thought we would, hence why I am OK with absorbing significant financial pain to enact even great pain on his people.

[BashiChuni]

31 minutes ago, goingkinetic said:

As I said the world has decided the Ukraine is expendable. I hope you are all right and he stops there. He's 2 for 2 on invading non-nato members. What about Taiwan, what message are we sending? We won't sanction Russian oil, what about sanction chinese everything? Every American should want American Food, Energy, Resource (Particularly microchip) independence, or the economic part of the DIME model is pointless.

Great post. Yes the world played Ukraine to the detriment of the Ukrainian people. It’s sad. Good question about Taiwan. 
 

cannot agree with you more about getting production and manufacturing back inside our borders. 

[FLEA]

1 minute ago, BashiChuni said:

Great post. Yes the world played Ukraine to the detriment of the Ukrainian people. It’s sad. Good question about Taiwan. 
 

cannot agree with you more about getting production and manufacturing back inside our borders. 

See the Presidential thread. Posted an article that pretty much said the Democrats have come full fucking circle and are going to make America great again, again. It's just absolutely tragic it had to take the suffering of Ukraine for them to come to that conclusion. 

[FLEA]

39 minutes ago, goingkinetic said:

As I said the world has decided the Ukraine is expendable. I hope you are all right and he stops there. He's 2 for 2 on invading non-nato members. What about Taiwan, what message are we sending? We won't sanction Russian oil, what about sanction chinese everything? Every American should want American Food, Energy, Resource (Particularly microchip) independence, or the economic part of the DIME model is pointless.

It's not that they are expendable. Everyone weeps for them right now. But we have limited resources, and those resources need to be spent prioritizing the liberty, freedom and safety of the American people before other countries. Accelerating standoff against Russia jeapordizes those interests. Diplomatic/Economic solutions are more effective in preserving them.