Russian Ukraine shenanigans

[FLEA]

For whatever it's worth I'm not going to have a say in this soon. I will be a civilian shortly and as much as I love this world, it's a world the AF won't let me stay in and I need to find something else. 

Point being, for myself, and the rest of the civilians in society, we are trusting you with our security and to make good decisions with it. Sure, myself, and other Americans, are outraged at what is happening to the Ukranian people. We are even willing to pay higher gas for it. But how many of those people, if you explained to them the realities of nuclear war, would be willing to accept that risk on themselves and their families, for the sake of proving a point? 

Your oaths of office are not to NATO, and not to Europe. You swore oaths to the US constitution and your obligation is to the United States, it's people, and it's interests. We are trusting you to keep those interests, mainly our lives, our safety and our freedom, at the forefront of your decision tree. If you are failing to do this for some obscure reason, you are failing us, and that to me is sad. 

Very few people on here have communicated how in their world view they are going to continue to protect US interests. I have no problem with radical plans to ousts evil dictators, but I'm not willing to risk the lives of my wife or children to do so. 

For those of you that stay, you do so at great peril and I thank you for that. The world may be on the precipice of entering the most complex security environment we've seen in 30 years and I'm hoping the redundancy of operations in the GWOT didn't mend our thoughts into ones based on complacency. I only hope that the US makes smart foreign policy decisions that value our troops and their lives appropriately. I pray that your generation never have their "Afghan moment" which is something that left me and many others with a striking amount of moral injury. If we are going to be the leader of the free world we need to recognize that is a job that is hard, needs to be taken responsibly and will require us to make tough decisions about our values and the values of our own people. There will be pressure from other countries to mold the world into their own order and we need to resist that, applying pressure where we can, but recognizing that US power and resources are limited and should not be squandered. 

That's really all I have. I have weeks left. Going to be a wild transition but I'm ready for it and I'm really excited for what's next. I sincerely wish the best of luck to all of you. 

[goingkinetic]

9 minutes ago, bfargin said:

And on a side note, a couple of the smartest guys in my UPT class washed out. Intellectually they made the rest of us (including the IPs) seem like special ed students. So even if he had washed out, it doesn't mean he doesn't have the smarts to logically crush anybody else's arguments/thoughts.

Who ran the AF in the af in the 40s, 50s and 60s?

[FLEA]

2 minutes ago, goingkinetic said:

Who ran the AF in the af in the 40s, 50s and 60s?

I'm not sure how that's relevant? 

 

[goingkinetic]

I’m tired of academics telling the the trigger pullers they’re so much smarter. Or the retired people telling me they have it all figured out. Wait, they did nothing in the cold war.

[goingkinetic]

We have 20 year battle hardened troops if anyone cares, imaginebwhat they could do.

[goingkinetic]

Flea, I’,m an asshole. If anything I enjoyed the ability to challenge my positions. Sorry for being an asshole. And congrats. I’ll buy you a drink.

[FLEA]

2 minutes ago, goingkinetic said:

Flea, I’,m an asshole. If anything I enjoyed the ability to challenge my positions. Sorry for being an asshole. And congrats. I’ll buy you a drink.

You meet all types man, and you get a thick skin. It's part of the business. I'll miss it immensely but I can't cut the career path I want here anymore and I know there is other stuff out there. Careful offering me beer, I may take you up on it one day and I get talkative when I'm drunk. (Why do you think I'm posting so much!!!) 

[hockeydork]

Never underestimate the power of a people fighting for their home and their freedom. If I was a Russian officer, my motivation would be rock bottom for this conflict. 

[BashiChuni]

this conflict is rapidly escalating. putin calling economic sanctions an "act of war"

if cooler heads don't prevail this thing is gonna kick off into WW3. hopefully old uncle joe is up for it. make no mistake of my position i want to give putin an off ramp, however if he wants to go then we should give him everything we got.

[hockeydork]

 

Just saw this which kinda aligns with my current observation of the situation. Let's not forget Putin cares about himself, he can rattle the nuke button but deep down he's scared and knows that that'll be the end of mother Russia forever. He's scared shitless. Which is why he's thrashing around Bashi, dudes shitting himself sitting at 12 foot long tables and all.

Putin can call them an act of war all he wants. Nobody cares, I think we'll see the end of him soon if the Russian people have anything to say about it. Imagine the American military killing Canadiens. F*ck that, this is going to boil over internally for him. How many Russian intelligence officers want this to be their legacy?

[BashiChuni]

Maybe so hockey, but what if you’re wrong?

 

[hockeydork]

9 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

Maybe so hockey, but what if you’re wrong?

 

Scary for sure and that would really suck no doubt. But like all things in life we have to accept the possibility of being wrong, we have to make decisions to the best of our ability with the info we have. I could get hit by a meteor walking to my car, but I don't wear a motorcycle helmet everytime I go outside. 

 

Vlad has shown he is not a selfless person. A selfless person wouldn't be worth 70 billion, mostly stolen from the Russian people. They wouldn't have look at me propaganda, and live in a ridiculous mansion. They wouldn't start a war that serves no purpose for the citizens of Russia, other than to distract the population from their leadership failures. They wouldn't attempt to rule Russia forever. 

He is selfish. Selfish people most likely won't nuke themselves. He'd be buying a guarantee that history would show him as the worst ruler of russia. 

We need to be calm. We need to keep the American flag off of the battlefield. We need to keep the Ukrainians supported, armed and fed in their fight for freedom. Time is an element of battle. It is on our side, he dug himself a hole when he invaded and Ukrainians didn't embrace him. If he surrenders he'll seem weak and that'll be his end, per his own standards. If he continues, the Russian people will end his reign. He is most likely done either way, patience on this one. 

[arg]

President Zelensky asking for a no fly zone. I bet more than a few US fighter pilots would like to finally mix it up with some Rooskies. We've been training for that for how many years? 60 plus? 

[hockeydork]

 

1 minute ago, arg said:

President Zelensky asking for a no fly zone. I bet more than a few US fighter pilots would like to finally mix it up with some Rooskies. We've been training for that for how many years? 60 plus? 

Its the perceptions of it.

Vlad would be able to point at the sky and say "look look, I was right, Americans are attacking the homeland. "

 

Play right into his homeland PR campaign. Disaster. Better off giving them better SAMs.

[arg]

8 minutes ago, hockeydork said:

 

Its the perceptions of it.

Vlad would be able to point at the sky and say "look look, I was right, Americans are attacking the homeland. "

 

Play right into his homeland PR campaign. Disaster. Better off giving them better SAMs.

Not advocating a NFZ. Just saying that the thought has to be in the back of a lot of fighter pilots minds. 

[arg]

[Prozac]

17 minutes ago, arg said:

Not advocating a NFZ. Just saying that the thought has to be in the back of a lot of fighter pilots minds. 

Was sharing some airspace with guys on their way out to do some air to air the other day. The red air call sign was Ivan. 

[HeloDude]

46 minutes ago, arg said:

Not advocating a NFZ. Just saying that the thought has to be in the back of a lot of fighter pilots minds. 

I get a little pumped up when I watch war movies as well…and then realize that war sucks and it’s best to not get involved unless absolutely necessary (this definitely isn’t necessary).

As I mentioned 1-2 weeks ago, the war hawks in the US are definitely out there…even some on this site.  

[VigilanteNav]

Never thought I'd love a dude packing a Russian manpad but that day has come!  Not sure about the part that he shot down the Su-30M but hope that's true too.    On the serious discussion side, I'm in the camp of the no NFZ by us or NATO.  Keep supplying them with Javelins and Stingers and it seems like they will be able to "win" in a protracted battle of attrition.  Definitely going to be brutal on the civilians but appears by and large that they are all in on shedding blood for their country.  

Edited March 5, 2022 by VigilanteNav
spelling errors

[Lord Ratner]

39 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

 

As I mentioned 1-2 weeks ago, the war hawks in the US are definitely out there…even some on this site.  

There is a huge difference in supporting a military effort for a nation that *clearly" yearns for freedom, and the Team America world police bullshit we've been involved in for my entire adult life.

 

The Ukrainian crisis is shaping up to be exactly the type of conflict the do-gooder American spirit is tailored to support. At a certain point, when you tolerate evil that you have the capacity to impede, you are being immoral yourself. We aren't there yet, but we are getting closer.

 

Ask yourself, is there a line the Russians could cross in Ukraine that would justify direct military intervention by NATO/USA? If not, you need to get your morality sensors recalibrated.

 

I'm sure the relativists here will disagree, but that's a morally bankrupt philosophy by design.

[HeloDude]

30 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

Ask yourself, is there a line the Russians could cross in Ukraine that would justify direct military intervention by NATO/USA? If not, you need to get your morality sensors recalibrated.

 

I'm sure the relativists here will disagree, but that's a morally bankrupt philosophy by design.

Thank you for showing your moral superiority to the rest of us.  But I’d rather the US sit this one out.  Your argument has been used over and over the better part of a century and look where it’s gotten us.  “But this time is different…”

By the way, you never answered my question as to if you have or have not bought anything made in China over the last few months?  I imagine you haven’t…since you’re morally superior and would never financially assist a tyrannical regime like the CCP.

Fortunately the Dems and Biden will just talk a big game and not actually do much…they know the politics of getting us involved with a war against Russia is not good.  Hell, Biden won’t even cut off their oil because he’s afraid of the economic impact.  But hey, get rid of that Russian vodka in the liquor stores!

[brickhistory]

52 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

Ask yourself, is there a line the Russians could cross in Ukraine that would justify direct military intervention by NATO/USA? If not, you need to get your morality sensors recalibrated.

No, sir, there is not, provided the action is against Ukrainians or Russians.

I applaud the Ukrainians giving the Russkis a bloody nose and I hope they eventually hand Putin his ass.

Please demonstrate what US vital national interests are concerned between Russia and Ukraine?

What is the line you deem worthy of US blood and treasure?

[Danger41]

If any of you guys decide to start the Second Volunteer Group and get your Chennault on, do yourselves a favor and adopt some medium altitude tactics. These Stinger/MANPADS videos are pretty gnarly.

[fire4effect]

3 hours ago, hockeydork said:

 Better off giving them better SAMs.

THIS

Edited March 5, 2022 by fire4effect
clarite

[Lord Ratner]

48 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

Thank you for showing your moral superiority to the rest of us.  But I’d rather the US sit this one out.  Your argument has been used over and over the better part of a century and look where it’s gotten us.  “But this time is different…”

By the way, you never answered my question as to if you have or have not bought anything made in China over the last few months?  I imagine you haven’t…since you’re morally superior and would never financially assist a tyrannical regime like the CCP.

Fortunately the Dems and Biden will just talk a big game and not actually do much…they know the politics of getting us involved with a war against Russia is not good.  Hell, Biden won’t even cut off their oil because he’s afraid of the economic impact.  But hey, get rid of that Russian vodka in the liquor stores!

Of course I have, but I'm also not dumb enough to think personal purchasing is equivalent to foreign policy. I do go out of my way (and spend more) to avoid Chinese goods where I'm able. 

 

Where has it gotten us? Literally the free-est and most prosperous the West (and the rest of the world largely) has ever been. South Korea and Taiwan are certainly better off. Germany, the rest of the EU, and Japan are looking pretty great too. I'm sure Israel appreciated our intervention. Sitting out Rwanda, however, was a bad look, and one of Clinton's biggest regrets.

 

And when we pulled out of Vietnam there was an unfathomable slaughter in Cambodia. Afghanistan isn't looking to great, but I suppose zero deaths in the year prior to the withdrawal was too high a price for the "no more foreign wars!" crowd.

 

It's trendy right now to act like our history is some comedy of errors. It's intellectually hollow and incredibly self-righteous to retroactively interpret history in the most negative light. The world is immeasurably better for billions of people as a direct response to US power projection. 

 

"The better part of a century" with American "interventionalism" has been pretty fucking good compared to the better part of a millennium without it.