Russian Ukraine shenanigans

[Lord Ratner]

48 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

Thank you for showing your moral superiority to the rest of us.  But I’d rather the US sit this one out.  Your argument has been used over and over the better part of a century and look where it’s gotten us.  “But this time is different…”

By the way, you never answered my question as to if you have or have not bought anything made in China over the last few months?  I imagine you haven’t…since you’re morally superior and would never financially assist a tyrannical regime like the CCP.

Fortunately the Dems and Biden will just talk a big game and not actually do much…they know the politics of getting us involved with a war against Russia is not good.  Hell, Biden won’t even cut off their oil because he’s afraid of the economic impact.  But hey, get rid of that Russian vodka in the liquor stores!

Of course I have, but I'm also not dumb enough to think personal purchasing is equivalent to foreign policy. I do go out of my way (and spend more) to avoid Chinese goods where I'm able. 

 

Where has it gotten us? Literally the free-est and most prosperous the West (and the rest of the world largely) has ever been. South Korea and Taiwan are certainly better off. Germany, the rest of the EU, and Japan are looking pretty great too. I'm sure Israel appreciated our intervention. Sitting out Rwanda, however, was a bad look, and one of Clinton's biggest regrets.

 

And when we pulled out of Vietnam there was an unfathomable slaughter in Cambodia. Afghanistan isn't looking to great, but I suppose zero deaths in the year prior to the withdrawal was too high a price for the "no more foreign wars!" crowd.

 

It's trendy right now to act like our history is some comedy of errors. It's intellectually hollow and incredibly self-righteous to retroactively interpret history in the most negative light. The world is immeasurably better for billions of people as a direct response to US power projection. 

 

"The better part of a century" with American "interventionalism" has been pretty fucking good compared to the better part of a millennium without it.

[HeloDude]

2 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

Of course I have, but I'm also not dumb enough to think personal purchasing is equivalent to foreign policy. I do go out of my way (and spend more) to avoid Chinese goods where I'm able. 

Thought so, thanks.  

[Lord Ratner]

45 minutes ago, brickhistory said:

No, sir, there is not, provided the action is against Ukrainians or Russians.

I applaud the Ukrainians giving the Russkis a bloody nose and I hope they eventually hand Putin his ass.

Please demonstrate what US vital national interests are concerned between Russia and Ukraine?

What is the line you deem worthy of US blood and treasure?

My line is the unprovoked slaughter/domination of one recognized nation by another. 

 

Sovereignty is a fundamental to the modern world order. That is a vital interest, especially as the eastern European countries continue developing into formidable economic powers, which benefits any Western-aligned nations through trade. And our biggest adversary world *love* the new precedent of "borders are... Flexible."

 

What about Moldova? Taiwan? Finland? Sweden? Indonesia? 

 

Bari Weiss hosted a great debate on her podcast "Honestly" between Matt Taibbi and Bret Stephens about interventionalism. I like Taibbi a lot, but his selective ignorance as to the many success stories of US intervention is very similar to attitudes being expressed here.

 

And no, I don't think we should be boots-on-the-ground in Ukraine, nor should we have a NFZ. Yet.

 

First we should *actually* cut all financial connections with Russia. Zero transactions, full asset seizures, and no tolerance for other nations who support Russia. You want to do business in the US, you don't get to work with the enemy.

 

But if the intentional targeting of civilians becomes the rule, or a tactical nuke is used, then we absolutely should. 

[BashiChuni]

1 hour ago, Danger41 said:

If any of you guys decide to start the Second Volunteer Group and get your Chennault on, do yourselves a favor and adopt some medium altitude tactics. These Stinger/MANPADS videos are pretty gnarly.

Nothing a random shallow can’t fix…

[brickhistory]

6 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

But if the intentional targeting of civilians becomes the rule, or a tactical nuke is used, then we absolutely should. 

Thank you for the reply.  I genuinely mean that.

The upper parts of your post replying to me weren't germane to the point from you I'm trying to understand so I cut them so I could just ask in response to the above:

How?

[Lord Ratner]

22 minutes ago, brickhistory said:

Thank you for the reply.  I genuinely mean that.

The upper parts of your post replying to me weren't germane to the point from you I'm trying to understand so I cut them so I could just ask in response to the above:

How?

No worries. How what? How would we stop the slaughter or respond to nukes?

[HeloDude]

1 hour ago, Lord Ratner said:

First we should *actually* cut all financial connections with Russia. Zero transactions, full asset seizures, and no tolerance for other nations who support Russia. You want to do business in the US, you don't get to work with the enemy.

Mexico is not sanctioning Russia…should we end all economic activities with Mexico?

 

[Lord Ratner]

3 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

Mexico is not sanctioning Russia…should we end all economic activities with Mexico?

 

First off, they don't have to sanction them, merely comply with the sanctions. 

 

But no, the second order sanctions would not have to be punitive (such as seizures or exclusion from SWIFT). But immediate suspension of trade agreements, preferable tax treatment, termination of joint military exercises. It's not particularly hard to exert pressure. We did it with the European countries with the Iranian sanctions, much to the dismay of France and Germany. We're not going to take your wealth (in your example), but your wealth creation through interaction with the United States will suffer.

 

We are the big kid on the block. If you want to live under our security umbrella, you don't get to play with the villains. And as before, the direct violation of national sovereignty, genocide, or nuclear use are clear definitions of villainous activity.

[HeloDude]

9 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

First off, they don't have to sanction them, merely comply with the sanctions. 

What does “merely comply with them” mean, exactly?  Mexico is still ops normal economically with Russia, are they not?  

[Lord Ratner]

5 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

What does “merely comply with them” mean, exactly?  Mexico is still ops normal economically with Russia, are they not?  

The US can initiate sanctions and demand compliance from other nations. Reference Iran.

 

So in the case of Mexico, should they choose to go their own way, then we take another look at NAFTA, or maybe cut off personal bank wire service between the US and Mexico. Not a difficult country to pressure.

 

Is it the concept I'm not communicating well, or merely the exact detail? Either of us could come up with many options using examples from the past. 

 

I'm not sure how them being ops normal with Russia right now is relevant. I'm not the president, so obviously they aren't doing what *I* would do.

[HeloDude]

3 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

The US can initiate sanctions and demand compliance from other nations. Reference Iran.

 

So in the case of Mexico, should they choose to go their own way, then we take another look at NAFTA, or maybe cut off personal bank wire service between the US and Mexico. Not a difficult country to pressure.

 

Is it the concept I'm not communicating well, or merely the exact detail? Either of us could come up with many options using examples from the past. 

 

I'm not sure how them being ops normal with Russia right now is relevant. I'm not the president, so obviously they aren't doing what *I* would do.

So why do you think Biden is not threatening Mexico economically to pressure them to as you suggest?  Also, have you personally stopped purchasing items from Mexico?  Or is it the same with you enjoying buying items from China?  

You’re talking a big game, but when it comes to you personally making sacrifices, I’m not seeing it.  

[Bender]

So why do you think Biden is not threatening Mexico economically to pressure them to as you suggest?  Also, have you personally stopped purchasing items from Mexico?  Or is it the same with you enjoying buying items from China?  
You’re talking a big game, but when it comes to you personally making sacrifices, I’m not seeing it.  

I’d like to second that foreign policy and personal behavior are two distinctly different things. Not sure why we’re grabbing on to the personal jab there…my personal sacrifices aren’t going to slow Russia’s roll down the road to the capital.

The initial question is pretty legit. So why not…I have my answers, but Lord Ratner is well into it at this point and I’d love to hear it.

~Bendy




Sent from my iPad using Baseops Network mobile app

[Lord Ratner]

19 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

So why do you think Biden is not threatening Mexico economically to pressure them to as you suggest?  Also, have you personally stopped purchasing items from Mexico?  Or is it the same with you enjoying buying items from China?  

You’re talking a big game, but when it comes to you personally making sacrifices, I’m not seeing it.  

You asked what I would do, not what I think Biden is doing. Focus.

 

I literally went to a home builders conference with a goal of finding manufacturers from countries other than China. Of note, a window manufacturer in Poland with great prices. Not China great, but still good. 

 

One of the features of collective action (government) is that it promotes a sense of fairness, critical in human systems, through uniform enforcement of the collective will. How many people would pay taxes if they weren't mandatory? Yet we all agree there needs to be some revenue source for the government. 

 

Do you avoid bridges and roads that were paid for by legislation you disagree with? I disagree with lower taxes for capital gains, and would vote to abolish them. But I'm not going to disadvantage my family when the correct mechanism is voting and communicating. Ironically, I will disadvantage my family to a point, which I do with more expensive purchases from non-China sources. But maximalist arguments are rarely valid. You're making a silly point, which is out of character.

[HeloDude]

11 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

You asked what I would do, not what I think Biden is doing. Focus.

 

I literally went to a home builders conference with a goal of finding manufacturers from countries other than China. Of note, a window manufacturer in Poland with great prices. Not China great, but still good. 

 

One of the features of collective action (government) is that it promotes a sense of fairness, critical in human systems, through uniform enforcement of the collective will. How many people would pay taxes if they weren't mandatory? Yet we all agree there needs to be some revenue source for the government. 

 

Do you avoid bridges and roads that were paid for by legislation you disagree with? I disagree with lower taxes for capital gains, and would vote to abolish them. But I'm not going to disadvantage my family when the correct mechanism is voting and communicating. Ironically, I will disadvantage my family to a point, which I do with more expensive purchases from non-China sources. But maximalist arguments are rarely valid. You're making a silly point, which is out of character.

I’m not the one telling people that their morals are lacking if they don’t support action against Russia for invading Ukraine.  So if you’re going to ask where my personal lines are then I’m going to do the same to you.  The difference is that I don’t care whether or not you support action against X country but apparently you care if I don’t support said actions.  
 

So I ask you to lead by example—be the change that you want to see happen.  If you’re not voluntarily willing to sacrifice what you want the government to force us all to sacrifice, then your argument holds zero weight.

[Danger41]

17 hours ago, goingkinetic said:

Flea what are your quals? Let me guess you washed out of pilot training and now teach sos. You are so smart.

 

Not that I want to engage with you but whenever I hear this type of attack I tell people to look up Chesty Puller and Tom Norris. Couple dudes that did alright even though they couldn’t hack it in pilot training.

[O Face]

On 3/4/2022 at 8:31 PM, FLEA said:

Back your claims, or get off the adult table. I'm done argueing. You have offered nothing to support your claims. I literally regurgitated the entire Soviet policy textbook answer on why they see the west as the aggressive one on here and all you offered was "your insane to believe that." But you have offered nothing otherwise. Back your claims, or go eat your chicken nuggets. If you don't want to be a big kid in these decisions, that's fine. But don't sit there and pout when people who spend a lot of time on this stuff and have arguments that actually have merit disagree with you. Go back to your flying planes and let people who are focused on avoiding nuclear miscalculation figure this out for you. 

Have you ever stopped sniffing these “academics” seat cushions long enough to consider the fact that the only reason Russia is a nuclear threat today is because some treasonous academic war-winners sold our nuclear secrets to Russia in the first place?  

Let me guess…I’m only viewing through my  ‘Merica lens, and If I put down my chicken nuggets and macaroni I would become enlightened enough to understand that Rosenberg, Fuchs, and Hall were actually really cool bros. 
 

[FLEA]

1 hour ago, O Face said:

Have you ever stopped sniffing these “academics” seat cushions long enough to consider the fact that the only reason Russia is a nuclear threat today is because some treasonous academic war-winners sold our nuclear secrets to Russia in the first place?  

Let me guess…I’m only viewing through my  ‘Merica lens, and If I put down my chicken nuggets and macaroni I would become enlightened enough to understand that Rosenberg, Fuchs, and Hall were actually really cool bros. 
 

I mean.... So what? Because a few dudes were assholes all academics were ass holes? Yeah man, there's bad people out there. Do you think your Intel shop is trash because Chelsea Manning or Edward Snowden? You aren't really making a point here. There's just garbage people in the world. I mean should I pin the China's rise on pilots because Shapour Moinian sold secrets to a Chinese intelligence asset? Surely you don't believe that? 

[hockeydork]

13 hours ago, HeloDude said:

I’m not the one telling people that their morals are lacking if they don’t support action against Russia for invading Ukraine.  So if you’re going to ask where my personal lines are then I’m going to do the same to you.  The difference is that I don’t care whether or not you support action against X country but apparently you care if I don’t support said actions.  
 

So I ask you to lead by example—be the change that you want to see happen.  If you’re not voluntarily willing to sacrifice what you want the government to force us all to sacrifice, then your argument holds zero weight.

The individual (consumer) only has power up until a certain point. You could want to buy an American computer all you want, but if none are manufactured, you're going to have to buy what's available. This is what ratner is getting at. 

I went through this a few years ago when Craftsman stopped making American tools. I bought as many USA ones I could find before they went to asia. I did find another manufacturer, SK, which is USA, they are more expensive but I pay it anyways. But if SK didn't exist, I'd be SOL unless the government did something to collectively force US manufacturing of tools. 

What a lot of people fail to forget is that the US makes a lot of money off selling things to China. Ever seen how popular Buick is over there? Trade is good economically for both countries. However as we are seeing, those benefits may be short term if the state you are trading with turns beligerent.

Imagine you had a neighbor you hated because he beat his wife, but he really needs to borrow your pressure washer, and you really need to borrow his weed wacker. What do you do? You could both go buy your own additional weed wacker and pressure washer. That'll be bad for both of you economically, but than youd be free to tell him to stop beating his wife. Pros & cons to both arguments. 

[ClearedHot]

Uber left wing "journalist" Fareed Zakaria just published his "take" on CNN...on how to deal with the Ukrainian situation - "The U.S. should immediately pump all the oil it can.  It should export as much natural gas as possible (including replacing all coal plants with natural gas).  We should remove all sanctions from Venezuela and Iran and let them pump the market full of their oil"  Everyone is worried about Putin being in a corner, to me it looks like Biden is in a corner with AOC and the Green New Deal Squad.

[goingkinetic]

13 hours ago, Danger41 said:

Not that I want to engage with you but whenever I hear this type of attack I tell people to look up Chesty Puller and Tom Norris. Couple dudes that did alright even though they couldn’t hack it in pilot training.

Apparently, I’m good at derailing threads. Again I poorly communicated my point via a personal attack, and that was wrong. I would happily buy flea or any who may not agree with me a beer. The US needs to be able to discuss differences without automatically assuming the other side is dumb or a Russian Plant.

The air force in the 40’s, 50s and 60s was run by men with vast combat experience. Somewhere in there the notion that academics can solve everything with missiles became prevalent. We saw how that worked out. The hit rate of the Aim-7 in Vietnam was in the single digit percentiles. How was McNamara’s F-111. There is an F in front of it because it was supposed to do air to air. To sum it up, common sense combat experience is extremely valuable and can’t be bought via a degree.

And no, I don’t need the standard O-6 speech of how would I fly my jet without AFE. Well, I’d probably inspect my own gear, but I sure as hell need MX and LRO. Finance questionable. Our recent awards ceremony only had one ops winner. We as a whole have lost sight in the value of guys hacking the mish. In my view it’s due to 60 years of domination.

[HeloDude]

50 minutes ago, hockeydork said:

The individual (consumer) only has power up until a certain point. You could want to buy an American computer all you want, but if none are manufactured, you're going to have to buy what's available. This is what ratner is getting at. 

I went through this a few years ago when Craftsman stopped making American tools. I bought as many USA ones I could find before they went to asia. I did find another manufacturer, SK, which is USA, they are more expensive but I pay it anyways. But if SK didn't exist, I'd be SOL unless the government did something to collectively force US manufacturing of tools. 

What a lot of people fail to forget is that the US makes a lot of money off selling things to China. Ever seen how popular Buick is over there? Trade is good economically for both countries. However as we are seeing, those benefits may be short term if the state you are trading with turns beligerent.

Imagine you had a neighbor you hated because he beat his wife, but he really needs to borrow your pressure washer, and you really need to borrow his weed wacker. What do you do? You could both go buy your own additional weed wacker and pressure washer. That'll be bad for both of you economically, but than youd be free to tell him to stop beating his wife. Pros & cons to both arguments. 

If that’s what you got out of my original post, then I have to explain it better…here it goes:

If Ratner is going to say that his morality is superior to others because he is wants the US to do X to Russia and wants the American people to sacrifice Y due to economic sanctions (when others like me don’t desire these options), then I expect him to voluntarily sacrifice more than what is a minor inconvenience in his daily life.  Ratner says that we should stop doing business with countries (ie Mexico) who are still ops normal with Russia and yet Ratner himself is not willing to make such personal sacrifices on his own.  You can live a life in the US without ever purchasing anything from Mexico.

If you disagree, then that’s fine…but this is the equivalent to those who want AR-15s banned in the US but is willing to get one themselves and/or hire someone with an AR-15 to provide their private security.  Another example are those who want SUVs using traditional gas engines banned, but who also continues to use them until there is such a ban.

If Ratner wants to play the “moral superiority” game, then he has to be willing to accept the fact that he picks and chooses as well, and thus is not better than anyone else.

[goingkinetic]

1 minute ago, HeloDude said:

If that’s what you got out of my original post, then I have to explain it better…here it goes:

If Ratner is going to say that his morality is superior to others because he is wants the US to do X to Russia and wants the American people to sacrifice Y due to economic sanctions (when others like me don’t desire these options), then I expect him to voluntarily sacrifice more than what is a minor inconvenience in his daily life.  Ratner says that we should stop doing business with countries (ie Mexico) who are still ops normal with Russia and yet Ratner himself is not willing to make such personal sacrifices on his own.  You can live a life in the US without ever purchasing anything from Mexico.

If you disagree, then that’s fine…but this is the equivalent to those who want AR-15s banned in the US but is willing to get one themselves and/or hire someone with an AR-15 to provide their private security.  Another example are those who want SUVs using traditional gas engines banned, but who also continues to use them until there is such a ban.

If Ratner wants to play the “moral superiority” game, then he has to be willing to accept the fact that he picks and chooses as well, and thus is not better than anyone else.

Aushwitz is morally wrong regardless of your moral compass.  True evil should be abhorrent to everyone.

[Lord Ratner]

2 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

yet Ratner himself is not willing to make such personal sacrifices on his own.

You keep saying that, yet I have and do regularly. But as pointed out, you can't buy things with chips in them that don't come from China. Are you just not reading the posts?

 

4 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

If Ratner is going to say that his morality is superior to others

You should go back and read the entire post. "We aren't there yet."

[Lord Ratner]

19 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

At a certain point, when you tolerate evil that you have the capacity to impede, you are being immoral yourself. We aren't there yet, but we are getting closer.

For ease of reference

[HeloDude]

16 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

You keep saying that, yet I have and do regularly. But as pointed out, you can't buy things with chips in them that don't come from China. Are you just not reading the posts?

 

You should go back and read the entire post. "We aren't there yet."

Ohhhhh…”we’re not there yet”.  Translation—you’re not willing to sacrifice more “yet”.  But you’re willing to call out others for their lack of morality if they don’t want to sacrifice what you’re willing to do so now. 

Sorry dude…you literally brought morality into this argument of what someone is willing to do vs not do, not me.  You also said we should not do business with those countries who do business with Russia…and yet you voluntarily engage in business with those countries.  I don’t care whether someone buys Russian vodka or not.   

And as for not wanting to buy chips made in China, are you saying you can’t live a life in the US without buying such items?  Or just that the hardship would be too uncomfortable for you/your family to bear?  What are you going to do when China invades Taiwan?

You’re free to walk back your original morality argument if you’d like…