Russian Ukraine shenanigans

[12xu2a3x3]

50 minutes ago, McJay Pilot said:

Ho Lee Fuk would be proud!

no Q-3, sheet metal on twelves, 👍

[Danger41]

Well…that’s interesting.

https://news.yahoo.com/amphtml/biden-ending-europe-trip-unity-042348703.html

[uninformed]

“For God’s sake, this man cannot remain in power," so is this how WWIII begins...crazy Joe going off script.  His handlers must have just crapped themselves when they heard that come out his mouth.  My guess is Joe will not be seen out in public much for a while.

[ViperMan]

50 minutes ago, uninformed said:

“For God’s sake, this man cannot remain in power," so is this how WWIII begins...crazy Joe going off script.  His handlers must have just crapped themselves when they heard that come out his mouth.  My guess is Joe will not be seen out in public much for a while.

No fan of Joe, but what's the alternative? To legitimize Putin and his ilk by dealing with him and in doing so tacitly approve of his actions? That'll just engender even worse. It's clear to me that Putin does have to go. The "West" cannot afford to deal with him in really any capacity after this adventure. Not sure what that means, but there is plenty short of WWIII which that can mean. For starters, we really should offer to be Europe's energy guarantor and take real and visible steps towards that end. Putin thinks the current sanctions are biting? Wait until he (and his people) realizes he's getting cut off from his largest market.

[HeloDude]

37 minutes ago, ViperMan said:

For starters, we really should offer to be Europe's energy guarantor and take real and visible steps towards that end. Putin thinks the current sanctions are biting? Wait until he (and his people) realizes he's getting cut off from his largest market.

And make energy that much more expensive for American citizens?  Not to mention that progressives want less energy from nuclear and fossil fuels, so that will be interesting to see.

We need to focus on our problems at home before we start trying to be the salvation of Europe…who by the way is still happy to buy Russian energy.

Edited March 26, 2022 by HeloDude

[Sprkt69]

1 hour ago, ViperMan said:To legitimize Putin and his ilk by dealing with him and in doing so tacitly approve of his actions? That'll just engender even worse. 

You mean like how everyone deals with China?

[Blue]

I believe Putin's "off ramp" would be for Russia to take over Crimea and the Donbass, and for Ukraine to pledge to stay out of NATO.  Probably some other nuances I'm missing, but I believe that's the broad strokes.

I would have liked to see Biden come out and advocate for bringing Putin and Zelensky to the negotiating table.  Russia has some claims to Crimea and the Donbass, so it's not outside the realm of possibility for Zelensky to capitulate a bit, and both sides declare victory and go home.

Instead, Biden is bumbling around, talking about Putin being removed from power.  Along with us shipping Javelins, anti-aircraft missiles, and other toys to Ukraine.

Isn't this how Vietnam escalated?  Lots of bombastic talk from politicians.  We ship a bunch of weapons.  Then we send military "advisors."  Tensions ratchet up, until one day one of our ships gets shot at.  Or maybe an airliner.  One way or another some kind of "act of war" happens, and then all of a sudden everyone is committed.

[BashiChuni]

Why tf is biden upping the ante by saying Putin cannot remain in power?

 

what the fuck is this administration doing? They claim they don’t want war with Russia but are doing everything to push us into a direct confrontation 

[BashiChuni]

JFC someone keep this idiot on script FFS 
 

 

[ViperStud]

12 hours ago, Blue said:

 

I believe Putin's "off ramp" would be for Russia to take over Crimea and the Donbass, and for Ukraine to pledge to stay out of NATO.  Probably some other nuances I'm missing, but I believe that's the broad strokes.

 

This is capitulation to Putin, not a situation where both sides can claim victory. If Ukraine officially gives up any land, which they seriously need to consider WRT at least Crimea, they should officially be welcomed to NATO while the ink is still wet on that agreement. 
 

UKR is starting to turn the fight back on Russia in some areas of the country, and they’ve shed a lot of blood to get there. Brokering a deal where they give up lots of land AND and get banned from NATO permanently - that’s a slap to the face of a lot of UKR heroes. 

[DirkDiggler]

18 hours ago, McJay Pilot said:

Ho Lee Fuk would be proud!

When that gargoyle is steady on the canopy you gotta do what you gotta do!  Good on him for bringing it back.

[pawnman]

16 hours ago, HeloDude said:

And make energy that much more expensive for American citizens?  Not to mention that progressives want less energy from nuclear and fossil fuels, so that will be interesting to see.

We need to focus on our problems at home before we start trying to be the salvation of Europe…who by the way is still happy to buy Russian energy.

So anything that even inconveniences Americans is off the table? 

No wonder people in other countries think we're selfish, arrogant assholes. 

[DirkDiggler]

13 hours ago, Blue said:

I believe Putin's "off ramp" would be for Russia to take over Crimea and the Donbass, and for Ukraine to pledge to stay out of NATO.  Probably some other nuances I'm missing, but I believe that's the broad strokes.

I would have liked to see Biden come out and advocate for bringing Putin and Zelensky to the negotiating table.  Russia has some claims to Crimea and the Donbass, so it's not outside the realm of possibility for Zelensky to capitulate a bit, and both sides declare victory and go home.

Instead, Biden is bumbling around, talking about Putin being removed from power.  Along with us shipping Javelins, anti-aircraft missiles, and other toys to Ukraine.

Isn't this how Vietnam escalated?  Lots of bombastic talk from politicians.  We ship a bunch of weapons.  Then we send military "advisors."  Tensions ratchet up, until one day one of our ships gets shot at.  Or maybe an airliner.  One way or another some kind of "act of war" happens, and then all of a sudden everyone is committed.

Why is your focus point above on what Zelensky/Ukraine should capitulate on given that Ukraine has been subject to an unprovoked war of aggression that’s killed and is killing thousands of its citizens?  Right now the Ukrainian military is punching hard and even retaking some lost ground; if I were NATO/US/Ukraine I’d be more interested in what Russia should capitulate on.

[DirkDiggler]

Back our regularly scheduled programming of great videos of what Russian soldiers should like either on or preferably in the ground.

[Blue]

48 minutes ago, DirkDiggler said:

Why is your focus point above on what Zelensky/Ukraine should capitulate on given that Ukraine has been subject to an unprovoked war of aggression that’s killed and is killing thousands of its citizens?  Right now the Ukrainian military is punching hard and even retaking some lost ground; if I were NATO/US/Ukraine I’d be more interested in what Russia should capitulate on.

Because Russia's invasion wasn't "unprovoked."  We've been "poking the bear" by advocating for Ukrainian entrance to NATO, along with our covert support of revolutions in Ukraine in 2004 and 2014.  None of that is an excuse for Putin to invade another sovereign country of course, but shows that the invasion was anything but "unprovoked."

I'd love to see the Ukrainian military defeat the Russians, and push them back over the border.  Would love to see Zelensky wave the Ukrainian flag as the last Russian walks across the border defeated.  However, I suspect that here in the West, we're seeing a propaganda-filled picture of the war thus far.  I think we're seeing Ukraine's successes being amplified, and their losses being minimized.  Anything's possible at this point, but I don't think we're going to see a quick, resounding victory at the hand of Ukrainian farmers stealing missile batteries and and Ukrainian soldiers sneaking around with anti-tank weapons.

Ultimately, I don't think Ukraine has the resources to mount a force-on-force battle with the Russians, so they're forced to use more guerilla tactics.  Which is fine, and could maybe lead to eventual victory.  But only after a long, protracted war.  Meanwhile, you'll have all sorts of opportunities for some kind of "fog of war" mistake that opens up a wider conflict.  After all, we've got a senile old man with his finger on the nuclear button on our side.  Meanwhile, Russia has their own old timer of questionable physical and mental state on their side.

The whole thing seems to be unfolding to leading everyone down the path to global chaos.

[uhhello]

20 hours ago, McJay Pilot said:

Ho Lee Fuk would be proud!

From 2020 unfortunately.  Attempted to land on road system 🙂

Edited March 27, 2022 by uhhello

[Prozac]

11 minutes ago, Blue said:

Because Russia's invasion wasn't "unprovoked."  We've been "poking the bear" by advocating for Ukrainian entrance to NATO, along with our covert support of revolutions in Ukraine in 2004 and 2014.  None of that is an excuse for Putin to invade another sovereign country of course, but shows that the invasion was anything but "unprovoked."

Nice shilling for the Russians here. It boggles my mind that so many Americans have bitten off on this hunk of Russian hot garbage propaganda, to include an influential portion of the media. Covert support of revolutions? Sorry bro, but we unapologetically supported the candidate that wanted to make democratic reforms over the Russian lapdog. This does not equate to supporting a “revolution” and it’s one of the things I expect and want my government to do. Also, doesn’t Ukraine get a say in who it decides to ally itself with? Or are you of the mind that great powers should still be carving smaller nations up for their own conveniences? If you’re not into American values and all that, that’s fine. Just don’t expect much sympathy here. 

[uhhello]

21 minutes ago, Blue said:

  However, I suspect that here in the West, we're seeing a propaganda-filled picture of the war thus far.  I think we're seeing Ukraine's successes being amplified, and their losses being minimized.  Anything's possible at this point, but I don't think we're going to see a quick, resounding victory at the hand of Ukrainian farmers stealing missile batteries and and Ukrainian soldiers sneaking around with anti-tank weapons.

 

I'd agree with you if we were talking about 2 weeks ago.  Russia has been at it for too long and is too inept in all aspects.  You are seeing the true effectiveness of the "bear"

[uhhello]

2 minutes ago, Prozac said:

Nice shilling for the Russians here. It boggles my mind that so many Americans have bitten off on this hunk of Russian hot garbage propaganda, to include an influential portion of the media. Covert support of revolutions? Sorry bro, but we unapologetically supported the candidate that wanted to make democratic reforms over the Russian lapdog. This does not equate to supporting a “revolution” and it’s one of the things I expect and want my government to do. Also, doesn’t Ukraine get a say in who it decides to ally itself with? Or are you of the mind that great powers should still be carving smaller nations up for their own conveniences? If you’re not into American values and all that, that’s fine. Just don’t expect much sympathy here. 

Don't forget about the bio labs and now nuclear research facilities

[DirkDiggler]

21 minutes ago, Blue said:

Because Russia's invasion wasn't "unprovoked."  We've been "poking the bear" by advocating for Ukrainian entrance to NATO, along with our covert support of revolutions in Ukraine in 2004 and 2014.  None of that is an excuse for Putin to invade another sovereign country of course, but shows that the invasion was anything but "unprovoked."

I'd love to see the Ukrainian military defeat the Russians, and push them back over the border.  Would love to see Zelensky wave the Ukrainian flag as the last Russian walks across the border defeated.  However, I suspect that here in the West, we're seeing a propaganda-filled picture of the war thus far.  I think we're seeing Ukraine's successes being amplified, and their losses being minimized.  Anything's possible at this point, but I don't think we're going to see a quick, resounding victory at the hand of Ukrainian farmers stealing missile batteries and and Ukrainian soldiers sneaking around with anti-tank weapons.

Ultimately, I don't think Ukraine has the resources to mount a force-on-force battle with the Russians, so they're forced to use more guerilla tactics.  Which is fine, and could maybe lead to eventual victory.  But only after a long, protracted war.  Meanwhile, you'll have all sorts of opportunities for some kind of "fog of war" mistake that opens up a wider conflict.  After all, we've got a senile old man with his finger on the nuclear button on our side.  Meanwhile, Russia has their own old timer of questionable physical and mental state on their side.

The whole thing seems to be unfolding to leading everyone down the path to global chaos.

Completely disagree on it not being “unprovoked”.  Ukraine as a sovereign nation was turning more towards the West, which in they should have every right to do.  For multiple reasons they don’t see a positive future tying their cart to an autocratic police state, probably to include the millions of Ukrainian nationals that were starved, imprisoned, displaced, or tortured to death by the former USSR.  Ukrainian democracy was and is the true “threat” (if there was one) to Putin and the current Russian system.

  Some of the news coming out of the war is an amplified version of what Ukraine wants the world to see and hear, but a good portion is not.  The Russian invasion plan in its original form has failed.  It’s true that the Ukrainians most likely don’t have the combat power to completely kick the Russians out of Ukraine in a force on force basis but right now they don’t have to.  The longer this goes on, the worse it gets for Russia as they continue to bleed men and materiel for little gain.

  Since Russia is the aggressor here the bulk of the onus to ensure some “fog of war” issues where something happens that triggers a NATO response is on them.  We (NATO) aren’t chucking cruise and ballistic missiles within a few miles of a NATO country.  Holding firm to defending NATO territory is vital and I’m glad Biden is staying firm on that.  We shouldn’t be acquiescent on Russia threats.

  As things currently stand I’d say we have little reason to force the Ukrainians towards capitulation on much.

  I’ll ask again, what do you think Russia should capitulate on?

[Best-22]

10 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

Why tf is biden upping the ante by saying Putin cannot remain in power?

 

what the is this administration doing? They claim they don’t want war with Russia but are doing everything to push us into a direct confrontation 

Well it's been a whole day now and the Russian response was: 

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov responded, “it’s not up to the president of the U.S. and not up to the Americans to decide who will remain in power in Russia."

“Only Russians, who vote for their president, can decide that,” Peskov said.

 

So you can stop having a meltdown over it. If those remarks were an unforgivable escalation by "crazy joe" Biden then this a a really weak response from the Russians. It gives credence to the theory that Putin only backs down when met with force vs appeasement. This could be seen as a veiled threat that now has Putin on his back foot, and is speaking directly to his number 1 fear. Therefore making this a brilliant 4D chess move, just like when the last guy went off script (according to the talking heads.)

 

If it isn't an escalation, then you're just flailing about and raging at nothing. Feel free to change your story to "Putin doesn't take senile Joe seriously so that's why it isn't an escalation" if you want, but they had a stronger response to Putin being labeled a war criminal just a few days ago.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Best-22

[HeloDude]

27 minutes ago, Prozac said:

Nice shilling for the Russians here. It boggles my mind that so many Americans have bitten off on this hunk of Russian hot garbage propaganda, to include an influential portion of the media. 

If you don’t think the vast majority of the msm (yes, even including Fox News) is biased towards reporting positives for Ukraine/negatives against Russia, then I have beach front property in Clovis I can sell you.

Just look at the Trump Russian collusion BS that the media/progressives ran for over a year (Schiff supposedly had all this evidence) and likewise recall how the Hunter Biden laptop was fake Russian disinformation, during the height of an election…except it’s now admitted that it’s real. 
 

So sorry if some us don’t take what we’re being told by the WH and msm as gospel.  And what you and other progressives/war hawks don’t understand is that you can be against Putin and the invasion while also not believing that there is only one side to the story that’s being reported.  
 

Hell, even on Fox News, Gutfeld (definitely more libertarian-ish) asks these types of questions and gets roasted for it…

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/greg-gutfeld-russia-ukraine-competing-narratives

[Prozac]

1 minute ago, HeloDude said:

If you don’t think the vast majority of the msm (yes, even including Fox News) is biased towards reporting positives for Ukraine/negatives against Russia, then I have beach front property in Clovis I can sell you.

Just look at the Trump Russian collusion BS that the media/progressives ran for over a year (Schiff supposedly had all this evidence) and likewise recall how the Hunter Biden laptop was fake Russian disinformation, during the height of an election…except it’s now admitted that it’s real. 
 

So sorry if some us don’t take what we’re being told by the WH and msm as gospel.  And what you and other progressives/war hawks don’t understand is that you can be against Putin and the invasion while also not believing that there is only one side to the story that’s being reported.  
 

Hell, even on Fox News, Gutfeld (definitely more libertarian-ish) asks these types of questions and gets roasted for it…

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/greg-gutfeld-russia-ukraine-competing-narratives

Quit trying to hide in the gray area. Of course Ukraine wants to highlight its triumphs. Of course the Ukrainian government is not perfect. But the fact is, only one country is taking sovereign territory from others. Only one country has blatantly invaded a neighbor and is now in the process of killing women and children en masse. Only one country has cast aside all of the rules and norms that have allowed the world and the world’s economy to flourish for the past 70 years. The fact that Ukraine isn’t perfect should not make it hard to pick the right side here. 

[BashiChuni]

22 minutes ago, Best-22 said:

Well it's been a whole day now and the Russian response was: 

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov responded, “it’s not up to the president of the U.S. and not up to the Americans to decide who will remain in power in Russia."

“Only Russians, who vote for their president, can decide that,” Peskov said.

 

So you can stop having a meltdown over it. If those remarks were an unforgivable escalation by "crazy joe" Biden then this a a really weak response from the Russians. It gives credence to the theory that Putin only backs down when met with force vs appeasement. This could be seen as a veiled threat that now has Putin on his back foot, and is speaking directly to his number 1 fear. Therefore making this a brilliant 4D chess move, just like when the last guy went off script (according to the talking heads.)

 

If it isn't an escalation, then you're just flailing about and raging at nothing. Feel free to change your story to "Putin doesn't take senile Joe seriously so that's why it isn't an escalation" if you want, but they had a stronger response to Putin being labeled a war criminal just a few days ago.

When the president of the United States goes off script and immediately has to be corrected via his own White House AND Secretary of State we have issues. 

“brilliant 4D chess move” LOL ok dude. Like the “most successful” AFG withdraw! You’re living in democratic fantasy land 

this administration is so inept. 

Edited March 27, 2022 by BashiChuni

[Best-22]

9 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

When the president of the United States goes off script and immediately has to be corrected via his own White House AND Secretary of State we have issues. 

“brilliant 4D chess move” LOL ok dude. Like the “most successful” AFG withdraw! You’re living in democratic fantasy land 

this administration is so inept. 

For clarity, that is not the argument I'm making. Just contrasting it to the OAN/Fox News interpretation of Trump when he went off script. Judging by your post history, you likely watch those networks exclusively so I was just trying to find a common political language to talk to you in.