Russian Ukraine shenanigans

[FLEA]

14 hours ago, fire4effect said:

Happened more than once on all sides in WW2. One of the more high profile examples Ronald Speirs - Wikipedia

Right or wrong Normandy really really was for all the marbles and anything that slowed or prevented mission accomplishment was not taken very lightly. Thankfully I never had to face their dilemma. I can't imagine. Disarmed Enemy Forces - Wikipedia was a designation given to German POWs after Germany's surrender in 1945 for the simple practical expediency of not having to provide a care and feeding at a level commensurate for POWs under the Geneva Convention.

 

 

Was kind of eluding to this earlier. We all want to see war crimes as this black and white thing but it's not and the fact is, states will attempt to blur the borders and boundaries of it as best as possible to serve their interests, including the US. The only definitive assurance is that your state will suffer less scrutiny if it comes out the victor. 

Its sort of why I don't put much stock into all of these cries about Russian war crimes because I can clearly see that what they're doing isn't really that far removed from our own state targeting processes, but they are doing it without the advantages of advanced sensory ISR or PGMs. I'm not saying there were war crimes committed by Russia, there certainly were; but most of the stuff I've seen right now is going to fall on an individual level and not on a state level. Now what is worth observing is if Russia internally disciplines those cases which is what we normally expect of our own military in this case (and why we won't sign in or participate in the ICC).

Again, not sure how many people on here are shooters or involved in targeting, but it is and always had been completely legal to kill civilians in war. Witnessed multiple times where we assessed a military target had the requisite necessity and proportionality to justify striking without regards to nearby civilian collateral. 

Edited April 6, 2022 by FLEA

[DirkDiggler]

 Surprising that the Russian military hasn’t been able to counter Ukrainian’s asymmetric advantage in UAS this far into the war.

[VigilanteNav]

It's wild seeing this play out with a new and evolving type of threat that we are still attempting to deal with.  I remember that time downrange when we would deploy SF troops around the aircraft for Counter UAS ops during EROs.  Of course, one time they ended up shooting at our own UAS.    

Edited April 6, 2022 by VigilanteNav

[Prozac]

4 hours ago, FLEA said:

but it is and always had been completely legal to kill civilians in war. Witnessed multiple times where we assessed a military target had the requisite necessity and proportionality to justify striking without regards to nearby civilian collateral.

PROPORTIONALITY is key here. While civilian casualties are an unfortunate reality of war, it is still not ok to commit murder. Have a look at the multitude of evidence of Russians executing civilians with their hands tied behind their backs & tell me they’re not guilty of war crimes. How about deliberately targeting hospitals and clearly marked shelters? How about raining down artillery on residential areas with no military targets in sight? Not exactly proportional now is it? Have the Ukrainians been operating 100% in accordance with LOAC? Probably not. But it’s their neighborhoods, their cities, their farms that have been invaded here. They can’t possibly be guilty on the same scale as the Russians because they aren’t ransacking Russian neighborhoods, raping their women and killing their children. Putin and his enablers are absolutely responsible for all of this reprehensible activity & frankly a hanging at The Hague is far to easy on them. Once again I’ll remind you that there is no gray area here. Only one side is guilty of a violent invasion & subsequent atrocities. There is NOTHING that justifies that. Not an expanding NATO, not an actor turned president who Putin doesn’t like, not Ukraine defending its own claims to Donbas. NOTHING JUSTIFIES RUSSIA’S ACTIONS. NOTHING. Fuck Putin and all of the Russians (and anyone else) supporting him by covering their eyes and ears to everything but the absolute garbage the Russian state is spreading.
 

One final note here: It’s sickening and offensive to those of us who have served and still believe in our country that we have American military members making a moral equivalency between our own targeting processes which, while less than perfect, are NOTHING like what the Russians have done in Ukraine. It literally turns my stomach. 

[Best-22]

2 hours ago, Prozac said:

One final note here: It’s sickening and offensive to those of us who have served and still believe in our country that we have American military members making a moral equivalency between our own targeting processes which, while less than perfect, are NOTHING like what the Russians have done in Ukraine. It literally turns my stomach. 

Russian misinformation seeks to:

 

1. Sow division between existing divides (political, racial, etc)

2. Introduce enough "noise" that you give up trying to find the objective ground truth, or start to feel that "both sides are the same anyways" (through false equivalency, historical revisionism, multiple conflicting reports or versions of the same event, and so on) 

It rarely is overtly pro Russian, and often aligns with some of our previously held beliefs in some way. This makes it hard to spot and easy to spread..

Some users on this site exclusively post things that align with one or both of the above. It doesn't mean they are part of the Russian propaganda machine, but they have likely fallen victim to it. 

 

I agree with everything you posted, calling out BS like this helps clear up some of the noise. 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Best-22

[FLEA]

1 hour ago, Prozac said:

PROPORTIONALITY is key here. While civilian casualties are an unfortunate reality of war, it is still not ok to commit murder. Have a look at the multitude of evidence of Russians executing civilians with their hands tied behind their backs & tell me they’re not guilty of war crimes. How about deliberately targeting hospitals and clearly marked shelters? How about raining down artillery on residential areas with no military targets in sight? Not exactly proportional now is it? Have the Ukrainians been operating 100% in accordance with LOAC? Probably not. But it’s their neighborhoods, their cities, their farms that have been invaded here. They can’t possibly be guilty on the same scale as the Russians because they aren’t ransacking Russian neighborhoods, raping their women and killing their children. Putin and his enablers are absolutely responsible for all of this reprehensible activity & frankly a hanging at The Hague is far to easy on them. Once again I’ll remind you that there is no gray area here. Only one side is guilty of a violent invasion & subsequent atrocities. There is NOTHING that justifies that. Not an expanding NATO, not an actor turned president who Putin doesn’t like, not Ukraine defending its own claims to Donbas. NOTHING JUSTIFIES RUSSIA’S ACTIONS. NOTHING. Fuck Putin and all of the Russians (and anyone else) supporting him by covering their eyes and ears to everything but the absolute garbage the Russian state is spreading.
 

One final note here: It’s sickening and offensive to those of us who have served and still believe in our country that we have American military members making a moral equivalency between our own targeting processes which, while less than perfect, are NOTHING like what the Russians have done in Ukraine. It literally turns my stomach. 

You are missing the point. But lets assume for a minute you didn't join the military assuming it was going to be rainbow farts from gilded unicorn assholes. In EVERY single instance of outrage you expressed above, I can pinpoint a near EXACT equivalent that happened in the US GWOT. Mishandling prisoners of war. Abu Ghraib, 2003. Striking hospitals marked as shelters? Doctors Without Borders, Kunduz, 2015. Raining artillery down on residential neighborhoods? al-Aghawat al Jadidah, Mosul, 2017. Raping and pillaging Ukranian villages? Mahmudiyah Iraq, 2006. I could name half a dozen for each of these actually but those were the best specific examples that most mirror the circumstances you point to above and as I said in my original post, its going to be really hard to pin some of these because Russia doesn't have access to advanced aerial sensors or PGMs that we do (and they are not required to). Futhermore, Zelansky muddied those waters further by giving every civilian in Ukraine a rifle and telling them to go out and kill Russians. I don't fault him for that, this is a war of survival for them, but recognize that makes it really hard to throw charges at Russia, charges, not accusations, and make them stick. 

More important to the overall point though, you lack the nuance of how LOAC is applied, where it hails from and the international audience it caters to. You brought up the Hague. Did you know that the United States of America (the country you said you still believed in) is actively sanctioning the ICC and has placed entry bans on ICC investigators tasked to investigate US war crimes in Afghanistan and Iraq. Ever ask yourself why that is? Ever ask yourself how the news stories about the incidents I outlined above were portrayed in the rest of the world? Ever open up a Pakistani newspaper article on drone strikes? 

7 minutes ago, Best-22 said:

Russian misinformation seeks to:

 

1. Sow division between existing divides (political, racial, etc)

2. Introduce enough "noise" that you give up trying to find the objective ground truth, or start to feel that "both sides are the same anyways" (through false equivalency, historical revisionism, multiple conflicting reports or versions of the same event, and so on) 

It rarely is overtly pro Russian, and often aligns with some of our previously held beliefs in some way. This makes it hard to spot and easy to spread..

Some users on this site exclusively post things that align with one or both of the above. It doesn't mean they are part of the Russian propaganda machine, but they have likely fallen victim to it. 

 

I agree with everything you posted, calling out BS like this helps clear up some of the noise. 

This is just silly. You guys just want to chock everything up to Putin apologetics and in reality i'm just telling you how shit is going to play out as I see it which is that Putin has sufficient fog and noise in Ukraine to effectively conceal a case against the state for war crimes based on Zelansky's decision to arm a civilian populace which massively distorted any cases against distinction and the lack of advanced targeting technologies, mainly sensors and PGMs, which allows Russia greater leniency and presuming proportionality. Just War Theory makes it pretty clear that combatants are innocent of Jus-ad-Bellum and therefore no matter how idiotic or stupid Putin's reason for entering Ukraine is, nothing justifies the extrajudicial killings or Russian POWs that are presumed innocent unless tried and found guilty of war crimes. 

If someone understands something better than you don't just dismiss it as propaganda, ask them to explain it. I can write pages on here about LOAC, Just War Theory and the Geneva conventions. If you were a shooter at some point, and you did some shit that bothered you, you probably talked to a Chaplain and a JAG a few times about this stuff, and they probably gave you some things to read, and you probably read a shit ton about it because you wanted to sleep at night. But hey man, what do I know. 

One last thing, Russia is not winning the information space right now. Ukraine is. And if you don't believe Ukraine is targeting American and Western European citizens in that information campaign, you are completely naive. And they are not doing it because they want to "be our friends" or "help us lead the free world." They are doing it because they are acting in their own country's interests, as ALL states do. There are "reasons" we are hearing very little about how the snake isle defenders suddenly ended up in Russian custody, what is happening in the inner ranks of the foreign legion, and how Russian prisoners are being treated in Ukraine. If we go balls to the wall break all hell lose against Russia so be it. But lets make sure we are doing it because its in our interests and not because its in Ukraine's interests. 

[Best-22]

16 minutes ago, FLEA said:

Noise

So essentially your point is "America is bad too and who's to say what the truth is because it's all so murky" , "Ukraine does propaganda too!" 

 

Your whole post is a real life example of method 2:

58 minutes ago, Best-22 said:

2. Introduce enough "noise" that you give up trying to find the objective ground truth, or start to feel that "both sides are the same anyways" (through false equivalency, historical revisionism, multiple conflicting reports or versions of the same event, and so on)

It's like I predicted the future.

 

I'm sure you're an expert on the LOAC and just war theory, but that doesn't mean we can chalk up all of Russias crimes to a simple targeting error because they don't have enough PGMs... do you think we're all stupid? The more details that come out the harder time you're going to have selling the "russias just acting in its own self interest like all rational states" line. I'm looking forward to seeing you flail around with that. 

[ClearedHot]

KA-52 Shot down with ATGM.  The Russians have a lost a LOT of equipment in five weeks.

 

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, FLEA said:

You are missing the point. But lets assume for a minute you didn't join the military assuming it was going to be rainbow farts from gilded unicorn assholes. In EVERY single instance of outrage you expressed above, I can pinpoint a near EXACT equivalent that happened in the US GWOT. Mishandling prisoners of war. Abu Ghraib, 2003. Striking hospitals marked as shelters? Doctors Without Borders, Kunduz, 2015. Raining artillery down on residential neighborhoods? al-Aghawat al Jadidah, Mosul, 2017. Raping and pillaging Ukranian villages? Mahmudiyah Iraq, 2006. I could name half a dozen for each of these actually but those were the best specific examples that most mirror the circumstances you point to above and as I said in my original post, its going to be really hard to pin some of these because Russia doesn't have access to advanced aerial sensors or PGMs that we do (and they are not required to). Futhermore, Zelansky muddied those waters further by giving every civilian in Ukraine a rifle and telling them to go out and kill Russians. I don't fault him for that, this is a war of survival for them, but recognize that makes it really hard to throw charges at Russia, charges, not accusations, and make them stick. 

More important to the overall point though, you lack the nuance of how LOAC is applied, where it hails from and the international audience it caters to. You brought up the Hague. Did you know that the United States of America (the country you said you still believed in) is actively sanctioning the ICC and has placed entry bans on ICC investigators tasked to investigate US war crimes in Afghanistan and Iraq. Ever ask yourself why that is? Ever ask yourself how the news stories about the incidents I outlined above were portrayed in the rest of the world? Ever open up a Pakistani newspaper article on drone strikes? 

This is just silly. You guys just want to chock everything up to Putin apologetics and in reality i'm just telling you how shit is going to play out as I see it which is that Putin has sufficient fog and noise in Ukraine to effectively conceal a case against the state for war crimes based on Zelansky's decision to arm a civilian populace which massively distorted any cases against distinction and the lack of advanced targeting technologies, mainly sensors and PGMs, which allows Russia greater leniency and presuming proportionality. Just War Theory makes it pretty clear that combatants are innocent of Jus-ad-Bellum and therefore no matter how idiotic or stupid Putin's reason for entering Ukraine is, nothing justifies the extrajudicial killings or Russian POWs that are presumed innocent unless tried and found guilty of war crimes. 

If someone understands something better than you don't just dismiss it as propaganda, ask them to explain it. I can write pages on here about LOAC, Just War Theory and the Geneva conventions. If you were a shooter at some point, and you did some shit that bothered you, you probably talked to a Chaplain and a JAG a few times about this stuff, and they probably gave you some things to read, and you probably read a shit ton about it because you wanted to sleep at night. But hey man, what do I know. 

One last thing, Russia is not winning the information space right now. Ukraine is. And if you don't believe Ukraine is targeting American and Western European citizens in that information campaign, you are completely naive. And they are not doing it because they want to "be our friends" or "help us lead the free world." They are doing it because they are acting in their own country's interests, as ALL states do. There are "reasons" we are hearing very little about how the snake isle defenders suddenly ended up in Russian custody, what is happening in the inner ranks of the foreign legion, and how Russian prisoners are being treated in Ukraine. If we go balls to the wall break all hell lose against Russia so be it. But lets make sure we are doing it because its in our interests and not because its in Ukraine's interests. 

Would you claim that any of those American actions were justified? Or are they crimes? Seems I remember at least a few ending in jail time for US service members.

[waveshaper]

45 minutes ago, ClearedHot said:

KA-52 Shot down with ATGM.  The Russians have a lost a LOT of equipment in five weeks.

 

A little info on this Ukrainian designed/manufactured ATGM (it can penetrate 32 inches of armor) and it can also do this "The Stugna-P is able of destroying low-altitude, slow-moving aerial targets":

"Stugna-p anti-tank missile": 

Stugna Stugna-P anti-tank guided missile technical data fact sheet | Ukraine Ukrainian army vehicle missile system UK | Ukrainian Ukraine army military equipment UK (armyrecognition.com)

[brickhistory]

That oughtta take care of any more fly-bys...

[FLEA]

36 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Would you claim that any of those American actions were justified? Or are they crimes? Seems I remember at least a few ending in jail time for US service members.

Which is what I said in my original post. There is a big difference though between being tried internally and being tried internationally, and none of our folks have been tried internationally. The US position on this has been that we maintain good order and discipline within our ranks so we dont have a requirement for an international body to hold us accountable. Russia will make the same appeal. All of this is kind of pointless to discuss anyway because I dont think the ICC actually has jurisdiction in the Ukraine conflict because neither party are full signatories. 

Best-22 is one of those people that believes everyone who disagrees with him must be the victim of some disinformation campaign and not realize that maybe they just have more facts than they do. Fine. Whatever. But its just the reality of the circumstances. All I'm trying to explain to him is that in conflict, there is a game that states play. And Russia knows the game and they know how to play it and they are playing it quite well because they are doing a pretty decent job of insulating themselves from any widespread prosecution against the state. 

Its like Covert Operations and the concept of plausible deniability. It doesnt matter if the whole world thinks its bullshit. If its plausible, its good enough to evade most international consequences. All states do is look for something that is just strong enough that other states with significant ties to them can internally justify to their populace why they are not making retribution. 

[Best-22]

26 minutes ago, FLEA said:

Best-22 is one of those people that believes everyone who disagrees with him must be the victim of some disinformation campaign and not realize that maybe they just have more facts than they do. Fine. Whatever.

No I'm just saying you're following the misinformation playbook exactly..With nearly every post you make on this forum regarding Russia (including this one).

 

Specifically:

you continue to double down on flimsy logic with this ridiculous theme pretending that since "America is bad too" then we can't fault Russia. Your insistence at this stage of the war that Putin is some brilliant geopolitical Chessmaster is laughable. 

Very rarely do I see accurate predictions regarding this war from the "both sides are the same" camp. 

[Lawman]

Very rarely do I see accurate predictions regarding this war from the "both sides are the same" camp. 

Ok sidebar on this point, because the building narrative by the current party in power and a lot of people safely on the sidelines is plainly obvious with this.

Absolutely nobody was aware of how disastrously led, planned,or resourced the actual Russian ground campaign was going to pan out. Austin Green was on record days before actual hostilities prediction to Congress the inevitable fall of Ukraine’s military to the “overwhelming numbers” of Russian BTGs in the area.

Anybody trying to change history now and say we were all plainly aware the Russian Army was a paper Tiger and would fall on its face are flat out lying to try and look good in the current trend. Furthermore; this war is far from over. And the danger with feeding that narrative is the thing that has actually given Ukraine the tools and maneuver space to fight this conflict ultimately risks drying up if we stop treating the Russian Army as a legitimate threat and referring to them like some 3rd world power.

While I think we all would be a little more comfortable about our tactical chances with the O-plan should the balloon have gone up, none of us should suddenly act like NATO going into Kaliningrad would have been a cake walk, nor should we be saying things that minimize the reality that Ukraine is paying for their freedom with blood and burned/broken cities right now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Best-22]

1 hour ago, Lawman said:

 

 

Ok sidebar on this point, because the building narrative by the current party in power and a lot of people safely on the sidelines is plainly obvious with this.

Absolutely nobody was aware of how disastrously led, planned,or resourced the actual Russian ground campaign was going to pan out. Austin Green was on record days before actual hostilities prediction to Congress the inevitable fall of Ukraine’s military to the “overwhelming numbers” of Russian BTGs in the area.

Anybody trying to change history now and say we were all plainly aware the Russian Army was a paper Tiger and would fall on its face are flat out lying to try and look good in the current trend. Furthermore; this war is far from over. And the danger with feeding that narrative is the thing that has actually given Ukraine the tools and maneuver space to fight this conflict ultimately risks drying up if we stop treating the Russian Army as a legitimate threat and referring to them like some 3rd world power.

While I think we all would be a little more comfortable about our tactical chances with the O-plan should the balloon have gone up, none of us should suddenly act like NATO going into Kaliningrad would have been a cake walk, nor should we be saying things that minimize the reality that Ukraine is paying for their freedom with blood and burned/broken cities right now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

I agree with you on all points. 

That portion of my comment was aimed more at the people who feel they need to remind everyone that Ukraine is actually corrupt and not a perfect democracy and therefore we might as well root for Russia. those same people would have told you a few weeks ago the stalled convoy NW of Kyiv was all part of the plan to build up forces and mass artillery. Now they say taking Kyiv was actually just a feint this whole time and we all got played. Or that Russias air force is notably absent because they are trying so hard to use restraint and avoid civilian casualties (not because they have failed to destroy Ukraines air defense) 

 

The point was that group isn't able to perceive this conflict accurately or honestly, and therefore can't/won't make realistic predictions. 

Edited April 7, 2022 by Best-22

[FLEA]

4 hours ago, Best-22 said:

No I'm just saying you're following the misinformation playbook exactly..With nearly every post you make on this forum regarding Russia (including this one).

 

Specifically:

you continue to double down on flimsy logic with this ridiculous theme pretending that since "America is bad too" then we can't fault Russia. Your insistence at this stage of the war that Putin is some brilliant geopolitical Chessmaster is laughable. 

Very rarely do I see accurate predictions regarding this war from the "both sides are the same" camp. 

Ok man. You do you. It's clear you got some weird narrative in your head that can't be shaken. Here's what Axios says. 

https://www.axios.com/putin-war-crimes-charges-punishment-0a6275ca-daa5-4fa2-9296-2b9e1348661e.html

I guess statements from a former ICC prosecutor are also Russian propaganda? You're laughable man. 

[Sim]

Quote

The United States Agency for International Development (USAID) has delivered 5,000 Starlink Terminals to the Government of Ukraine through a public-private partnership with the American aerospace manufacturer, SpaceX.

 

https://www.usaid.gov/news-information/press-releases/apr-5-2022-usaid-safeguards-internet-access-ukraine-through-public-private

[Sim]

Good take on current situation. 

[Best-22]

7 hours ago, FLEA said:

Ok man. You do you. It's clear you got some weird narrative in your head that can't be shaken. Here's what Axios says. 

https://www.axios.com/putin-war-crimes-charges-punishment-0a6275ca-daa5-4fa2-9296-2b9e1348661e.html

I guess statements from a former ICC prosecutor are also Russian propaganda? You're laughable man. 

You're refuting a point I didn't even make. 

My issue is with the broader themes you're trying to push. I even had a section in that comment that laid out specifically what I was talking about. Let's not get bogged down going in circles over the details. 

[brickhistory]

6 hours ago, Best-22 said:

Let's not get bogged down going in circles over the details. 

[DirkDiggler]

Ballsy BTR crew smacking T-72s with their 30mm.

[brickhistory]

Indeed.

 

Even grandmothers are getting into the act:

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/displaced-88-year-old-ukrainian-woman-laughs-as-she-recounts-telling-russian-soldier-fck-your-mother/

 

Also in the good news department despite the spin:

https://thehill.com/policy/international/3261917-kremlin-spokesman-admits-we-have-significant-losses-of-troops-calls-it-a-huge-tragedy/

[fire4effect]

17 hours ago, brickhistory said:

Indeed.

 

 

 

Also in the good news department despite the spin:

https://thehill.com/policy/international/3261917-kremlin-spokesman-admits-we-have-significant-losses-of-troops-calls-it-a-huge-tragedy/

Overall I agree stacking up Russians should convince them to back off. But as is often the case Putin doesn't appear to feel the pain of their sacrifice. I thought I saw a quote (no way to ascertain veracity) from a Russian Mom who lost a son in Ukraine and blamed the US. for supplying the weapons used. She supposedly said Russia should send us a nuke to get us to back off in Ukraine. If thats the sentiment on their side this could really get ugly. At a minimum I hope they have good control of the people actually minding the button. 

[DirkDiggler]

57 minutes ago, fire4effect said:

Overall I agree stacking up Russians should convince them to back off. But as is often the case Putin doesn't appear to feel the pain of their sacrifice. I thought I saw a quote (no way to ascertain veracity) from a Russian Mom who lost a son in Ukraine and blamed the US. for supplying the weapons used. She supposedly said Russia should send us a nuke to get us to back off in Ukraine. If thats the sentiment on their side this could really get ugly. At a minimum I hope they have good control of the people actually minding the button. 

I'm pretty sure North Vietnam wasn't producing it's own SA-2s/3s/23mm/37mm/57mm/85mm.  We didn't "send the Russians a nuke".  Karma is a bitch.  Russian soldiers wouldn't be dying if Putin would have stayed on his side of the border; she should take her case up with him.

[DirkDiggler]

Good video of Russians burning